Texas Elementary School Shooting, as many as 22 dead, including Children

[Captain N]

I expect these officers to receive some kind of award for selflessly protecting the lives of their fellow officers in the face of grave danger. This is Texas and based on what we continue to see in this case, and damn near every other it'll probably happen.

[Breccia]

I'll be shocked if anyone, even in TX, actually does anything.

A number of people here seem to think Abbott wants a scapegoat. If so, who better than the one who already retired?

[cubby]

A number of people here seem to think Abbott wants a scapegoat. If so, who better than the one who already retired?

I think you've nailed it. They blame the whole thing on the guy who already retired, and will get a full 30+ years pensioned, paid by the people who's children he helped slaughter.

Fuck I hate this country more and more.

[noidentity]

NSFW!

https://www.statesman.com/story/news...e/65370384007/

NSFW!

Leaked and edited 4:08 minute video has been released and is enraging to watch. These police are scum and let children die.

[PhaelixWW]

Here's the much longer (nearly hour and a half) composite video.

Spoiler: A lot of it is just cops standing around in a hallway twiddling their thumbs.

[Breccia]

Leaked and edited 4:08 minute video

Yeah...some of you might want to just read the article instead.

[noidentity]

Here's the much longer (nearly hour and a half) composite video.

Spoiler: A lot of it is just cops standing around in a hallway twiddling their thumbs.

Missed this one thanks

Yeah...some of you might want to just read the article instead.

Agreed, watch at your own risk.

[uuuhname]

fucking pigs looking at their cell phones with a fucking punisher wallpaper as kids are dying.

[Edge-]

fucking pigs looking at their cell phones with a fucking punisher wallpaper as kids are dying.

I mean...we know radios didn't work in the building (fuckin lol) so they were very likely checking for updates since it appears that there was precisely zero effective communication going on. They were probably finding out about as much through the news as they were from the incident commander who didn't know he was in charge.

[Breccia]

They were probably finding out about as much through the news as they were from the incident commander who didn't know he was in charge.

Again, I'm less likely to blame the individual police as the commander who just resigned in disgrace. This isn't an 80's movie where a good cop goes rogue and saves everyone. Police are supposed to follow orders from a reasonable commander.

[Endus]

Again, I'm less likely to blame the individual police as the commander who just resigned in disgrace. This isn't an 80's movie where a good cop goes rogue and saves everyone. Police are supposed to follow orders from a reasonable commander.

Unless said orders are unreasonable. Which these were.

You try pulling that "my CO told me to" defense in a court-martial in the military, and you're gonna get crucified, even if that's completely true. It isn't, in any degree, any kind of defense of anyone's actions.

By all means, charge the leadership too. But the leadership being incompetent boobs does not distract from the gross, villainous incompetence demonstrated by individual officers, here.

[Edge-]

Again, I'm less likely to blame the individual police as the commander who just resigned in disgrace. This isn't an 80's movie where a good cop goes rogue and saves everyone. Police are supposed to follow orders from a reasonable commander.

Didn't he only resign from the city council position?

[Breccia]

Didn't he only resign from the city council position?

Oh, yeah, good point.

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Unless said orders are unreasonable. Which these were.

They might not have known, there were communication issues. Not hearing anything at all isn't a reason to break ranks and charge. I might be in the minority, but I'm not a big fan of armed public enforcers acting on the lack of information and lack of communication.

I dunno. I don't like the thread we'd have if Officer Goes Rogue is blamed on all the deaths, instead of the clearly ineffictive system. If all the deaths are blamed on a single cop not following protocol, the status quo, which we now know was worthless, remains in place. If we find out the police knew for a fact the gunman was pinned down and vulnerable, but did nothing until he killed more people, I am 100% joining your point of view.

[cubby]

Again, I'm less likely to blame the individual police as the commander who just resigned in disgrace. This isn't an 80's movie where a good cop goes rogue and saves everyone. Police are supposed to follow orders from a reasonable commander.

While I agree, the cops who were in the school and initially retreated should have finished it out, or died trying. I'm not being crass or sarcastic or anything other than deadly serious when I say this is literally what they signed up to do. I can't even think of a situation that would be more prevalent that this exact one.

And you all know me to defend LEO's more so than would be expected of someone with my liberal background and viewpoints/opinions. I have good reason to typically defend LEO's overall, and then drill down to the details, and see what punishment should be meted out.

Those cowardly fuckers should be hung after a short trial.

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They might not have known, there were communication issues. Not hearing anything at all isn't a reason to break ranks and charge. I might be in the minority, but I'm not a big fan of armed public enforcers acting on the lack of information and lack of communication.

I dunno. I don't like the thread we'd have if Officer Goes Rogue is blamed on all the deaths, instead of the clearly ineffictive system. If all the deaths are blamed on a single cop not following protocol, the status quo, which we now know was worthless, remains in place. If we find out the police knew for a fact the gunman was pinned down and vulnerable, but did nothing until he killed more people, I am 100% joining your point of view.

I agree with you overall, we don't want Officer Goes Rogue as a policy or a rule of thumb. But in this case, no orders were needed. Those cowardly fucks literally caused the deaths of children by not doing their duty. No orders were needed because stopping children from dying is #1 on their list of priorities. And the shooter was right there, and they knew it. Nothing Rogue about that in my mind. Pure cowardice.

And yes, I say this knowing that some of them would not have survived the encounter. I say this with close personal friends in law enforcement.

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They entered at 3 minutes, retreated at 4 minutes, and did nothing for more than an hour. No idea who approached the car when it hit the ditch and the initial shots were fired.

Cops too scared to do their job, that they signed up for. They were told "shit might get dangerous and your life is on the line", they said yes then proceeded to shit their pants. Defund them all.

Yep. And they won't be punished. Won't lose their jobs. And they will still collect their lifetime pension paid for by the parents of the children they helped kill.

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Interestingly, in lieu of contributory negligent homicide and the electric chair, I would accept their immediate resignation and rescindment of their pension and benefits.

All of them.

[david0925]

serious question. what is the difference between this and desertion for military?

why do we have public law enforcement if they can pick what to engage in without being accountable?

[Breccia]

I agree with you overall, we don't want Officer Goes Rogue as a policy or a rule of thumb. But in this case, no orders were needed. Those cowardly fucks literally caused the deaths of children by not doing their duty. No orders were needed because stopping children from dying is #1 on their list of priorities. And the shooter was right there, and they knew it. Nothing Rogue about that in my mind. Pure cowardice.

And yes, I say this knowing that some of them would not have survived the encounter. I say this with close personal friends in law enforcement.

Just so we're clear, the only reason I'm not immediately siding with you, @Endus and a lot of others, is because when there's a lack of information I consider that a failure at the top first and foremost. If a restaurant fails, I don't typically blame the waiters.

It really doesn't look good for anyone involved, but I'm offering the people who were on the front line all possible credit for now. We are still missing information, I'm sure, and we have seen reports earlier on of the police on the scene wanting to go in and being told to wait. For now, I'm not ready to condemn them.

Their leadership is a tragedy and should be fired.

[Endus]

Just so we're clear, the only reason I'm not immediately siding with you, @Endus and a lot of others, is because when there's a lack of information I consider that a failure at the top first and foremost. If a restaurant fails, I don't typically blame the waiters.

It really doesn't look good for anyone involved, but I'm offering the people who were on the front line all possible credit for now. We are still missing information, I'm sure, and we have seen reports earlier on of the police on the scene wanting to go in and being told to wait. For now, I'm not ready to condemn them.

Their leadership is a tragedy and should be fired.

It really depends.

If a waiter knows a client is allergic to shellfish, because the customer said they were allergic to shellfish, and the chef says he doesn't give a shit he's wiping the customer's steak all over with fish oil and shrimp sauce because customers are stupid, and the waiter serves that steak knowing this, that server's got at least some culpability in the whole thing, and saying "but the chef and owner told me to" isn't a justification.

Police officers have extensive training. Immediately after this happened, I linked to Uvalde police training for mass shooter situations, training that had been done just a few months prior to the shooting. And that training was clear that the first duty for officers was to engage the shooter. Even if other officers get shot, engage the shooter. If they're afraid they might get shot? That training said they should find some other job because they weren't fit to be a police officer.

Given that, I don't see much wiggle room for these officers. If this were a case where their training was just colossally shitty and self-protecting at the public's expense, I'd shit on them and their training for being grossly unethical but I'd understand they can't be held legally liable for actions within their training standards. But that's really not the case, here. I don't actually have a problem with the training policy listed. Uvalde officer conduct in this, however, violates those obligations. Hence my argument that they need to be fired with cause at a minimum, and ideally charged for their actions.

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Absolutely fair, and I get not wanting to turn people who may have acted what they thought was correctly to be pariahs, but I can't imagine if I signed up knowing my life was forfeit for children how I wouldn't try to save them.

Like, I've never been in a shooting. I have been second on-scene to a pretty bad car crash (second because I had to bring my vehicle to a halt and park it safely, and my buddy with me jumped out before I stopped). I've had to hold my apartment door shut while a friend's significant other tried to break it down, to get at my friend who'd come to us for refuge. My first instinct's always to help, to get involved. So while I've never been in a shooting, if I were working in a school when a shooter came in, my first instinct is gonna be protecting students, up to and including risking getting myself shot, and possibly killed. I'm not gonna claim to be some megarambo who's gonna 360 noscope the shooter because I'm super mega awesome or some stupid macho shit like that; I'll probably get myself shot. But I'm gonna fuckin' try, because I'm not gonna be able to live with myself if I don't.

And I have very little fuckin' patience for chickenshit wannabe rambo types like these officers, who aren't fit to serve as unarmed security at the local kiddie pool.

[Breccia]

Given that, I don't see much wiggle room for these officers.

Not much at all, no. I'm just basically holding out hope they were all told "stand fast, that's an order" which, again, early on we'd heard they were. It's the difference between "the leadership failed them" and "everyone failed at once". And it might be wishful thinking, but I'd like the first to be the result.

If it's an option. Sometimes there's only one deep frier, and the fried go in with the shrimp.

[Masark]

Not hearing anything at all isn't a reason to break ranks and charge.

They weren't "not hearing anything".

They were hearing gunshots and the screams of children being murdered.

[Edge-]

serious question. what is the difference between this and desertion for military?

why do we have public law enforcement if they can pick what to engage in without being accountable?

Legally? A lot, because cops are legally protected if they just like, choose to not actually do their jobs. Soldiers aren't.

Practically...not a lot. Mostly comes down to, "Well we didn't get any orders and couldn't bothered to do anything without orders." Though it would probably be more analogous to dereliction of duty than desertion (which is just straight up leaving without permission).