Texas Elementary School Shooting, as many as 22 dead, including Children

[Dorothyjean]

More money for police so more innocent black people can get murdered!
Money for mental health care that isn't the problem in the first place!
Money for armed school security who'll either run away to save themselves or just be avoided until the shooting starts!
Reform schools so they function even more like prisons, prepping students for their resulting futures!

Anything but even considering that maybe American culture has a harmful obsession with encouraging gun violence and shit like the 2nd Amendment are legitimately stupid and harmful, in and of themselves.

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From naked whataboutism to pointless "both sides" dishonesty.

Your talking points sheet is both old and ​obvious.

Edit:. Also, this is "open discussion". This is what that looks like. What you're experiencing here is criticism.

Nah, I said my peace because none of you want to see any side but your own and you deflect constantly away from the discussion and just attack how a person talks to you. There is no open discussion about this... there is only moral superiority. Stop acting like a pompous know it all and you may see this for what it is but I doubt you will. I'm not being dishonest about the "both sides" part... it's glaringly obvious from reading this thread that neither side will budge or move and you're all acting like morally superior people just to prove your points via "criticism".

Zero open discussion... My way or the highway is all there is in here.

[Endus]

We have tried that, half the population dosnt give two shits we can't change that.

It's way more than half. Most Democrats are just as unwilling to dispute those white supremacists as Republicans.

[Dorothyjean]

Let's see.

One side recommends investing in mental health services and a national gun registry not unlike cars, or births.

The other side says no, calls that side a bunch of communists, and offers thoughts and prayers as a deterrant to school shootings. Oh and arming students with guns as well.

Yeah your 'both sides tho!' argument is shit, always has been shit, and will always be shit.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Endus]

Nah, I said my peace because none of you want to see any side but your own

Discarding specific dishonest arguments is not the same as not wanting to see any other sides.

I'm open to other honest sides, that have reason and evidence to back them up.

That's not what you brought with you.

and you deflect constantly away from the discussion and just attack how a person talks to you.

If you're posting dishonestly, pointing that out is a necessary component of criticism.

There is no open discussion about this... there is only moral superiority. Stop acting like a pompous know it all and you may see this for what it is but I doubt you will. I'm not being dishonest about the "both sides" part... it's glaringly obvious from reading this thread that neither side will budge or move and you're all acting like morally superior people just to prove your points via "criticism".

You've made zero effort to "prove" anything. You spouted a bunch of nonsense and now you're throwing a tantrum because we could clearly see it as being nonsense.

Again; your claims not holding up to scrutiny does not mean nobody's claims could hold up to scrutiny. Take some personal responsibility for making bad arguments you can't properly defend.

[Canpinter]

It's way more than half. Most Democrats are just as unwilling to dispute those white supremacists as Republicans.

Ok so you agree we can't actually do anything about the root cause so we need to do what we can to mitigate the harm or just say fuck it all and let it all burn.

[Endus]

Ok so you agree we can't actually do anything about the root cause so we need to do what we can to mitigate the harm or just say fuck it all and let it all burn.

No, I agree that you don't want to do anything (as a nation) about the root causes.

You absolutely could. It's a lack of will/desire, not a lack of capacity.

[Zan15]

REMEMBER next time someone says "if someone in that school had a gun" "if a good guy in the place had a gun"


Trump CONFIRMS he will attend the NRA convention in Houston on Friday but attendees WON'T be able to bring in their guns


Why are they so afraid of good guys with guns?
Why can't those people going protect themselves with these wonderful protection devices?

What happens if someone starts shooting?


Maybe they realize, without ever saying, that if everyone is packing heat in the crowd and a gun goes off the whole place is going to become a shooting gallary?

[Slant]

Nah, I said my peace because none of you want to see any side but your own and you deflect constantly away from the discussion and just attack how a person talks to you. There is no open discussion about this... there is only moral superiority. Stop acting like a pompous know it all and you may see this for what it is but I doubt you will. I'm not being dishonest about the "both sides" part... it's glaringly obvious from reading this thread that neither side will budge or move and you're all acting like morally superior people just to prove your points via "criticism".

Zero open discussion... My way or the highway is all there is in here.

It's you that is avoiding the discussion right now. Just saying. You're part of the problem. Not us. You seem to have a hard time listening to anything outside your bubble. And then you claim every one else is thinking in absolutes. Some of us have had this discussion for decades on this very forum.

[Fugus]

From my understanding, the discussion is likely to be forced to change in the relatively near future.

The military is getting ready to implement a new rifle that is designed to penetrate body armor with a lot more power than the standard AR15 and the civilian versions of them are already on sale.

Once people start buying them to look like the military and the shooters have access to them better as well, this whole thing gets much uglier.

The body counts climb and law enforcement protections become much less effective to useless.

When you start seeing those images of school and church shootings or other random places. This might get more sticky, especially when the police are too scared to go in because their body armor doesn’t work anymore.

[eschatological]

The only time we saw a cop in my entire schooling career in multiple provinces here in Canada was when they were in the school for some public outreach thing, like "I'm a K-9 officer and here's my partner, so hi to the dog, kids!" stuff. Nor were there any kind of security, let alone armed security.

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Sometimes, the truth hurts, eh?

FWIW, I went to school in the 80s/90s (graduated HS in '99) and there were never cops or metal detectors in schools back then. Like 9/11 changed national security, Columbine in the spring of '99 changed school security. Of course, it was a false security, it hasn't done anything to prevent or slow down school shootings.

And of course, it should always be noted: school shootings happened before '99. But they were in inner city schools between gang members, and no one gave a shit. Once it hit white suburbia, it became "a problem." But by blowing up the problem in the media so much, it inspired many, many copycats.

[Canpinter]

No, I agree that you don't want to do anything (as a nation) about the root causes.

You absolutely could. It's a lack of will/desire, not a lack of capacity.

Ok then what do you suggest we do that actually has a chance of happening? Cause I get this is largely intellectual for you but some of us actually live in this shit hole and have family we would like to see not get shot at school.

[Fugus]

FWIW, I went to school in the 80s/90s (graduated HS in '99) and there were never cops or metal detectors in schools back then. Like 9/11 changed national security, Columbine in the spring of '99 changed school security. Of course, it was a false security, it hasn't done anything to prevent or slow down school shootings.

And of course, it should always be noted: school shootings happened before '99. But they were in inner city schools between gang members, and no one gave a shit. Once it hit white suburbia, it became "a problem." But by blowing up the problem in the media so much, it inspired many, many copycats.

I graduated in 2000 and we did have a police officer in our high school daily. He didn’t really have much to do and was only one of them I saw, but we had one.

[Endus]

FWIW, I went to school in the 80s/90s (graduated HS in '99) and there were never cops or metal detectors in schools back then. Like 9/11 changed national security, Columbine in the spring of '99 changed school security. Of course, it was a false security, it hasn't done anything to prevent or slow down school shootings.

And of course, it should always be noted: school shootings happened before '99. But they were in inner city schools between gang members, and no one gave a shit. Once it hit white suburbia, it became "a problem." But by blowing up the problem in the media so much, it inspired many, many copycats.

I mean, I'm also a certified teacher here in Ontario, and the schools I've worked in don't have armed security or a police presence, either.

I'll also not that "copycats" betrays the whole "maybe it's mental health issues" rhetoric. Mental health problems aren't communicable. I know you weren't making that argument, but your use of the word made it occur to me.

[eschatological]

Nah, I said my peace because none of you want to see any side but your own and you deflect constantly away from the discussion and just attack how a person talks to you. There is no open discussion about this... there is only moral superiority. Stop acting like a pompous know it all and you may see this for what it is but I doubt you will. I'm not being dishonest about the "both sides" part... it's glaringly obvious from reading this thread that neither side will budge or move and you're all acting like morally superior people just to prove your points via "criticism".

Zero open discussion... My way or the highway is all there is in here.

I mean, I pointed out a whole bunch of flaws in your reasoning, but you decided to just handwave it as people "not being open to discussion" of your factually wrong and inaccurate claims.

[Edge-]

From my understanding, the discussion is likely to be forced to change in the relatively near future.

The military is getting ready to implement a new rifle that is designed to penetrate body armor with a lot more power than the standard AR15 and the civilian versions of them are already on sale.

Once people start buying them to look like the military and the shooters have access to them better as well, this whole thing gets much uglier.

The body counts climb and law enforcement protections become much less effective to useless.

When you start seeing those images of school and church shootings or other random places. This might get more sticky, especially when the police are too scared to go in because their body armor doesn’t work anymore.

I mean...probably not. Most of these shootings are done with handguns and other "civilian" weapons. The added stopping power isn't gonna matter, since shooters are largely shooting children or people shopping or people praying at church - you know, places where people likely aren't fuckin strapped and vested.

As to the bolded...because we aren't frequently seeing chickenshit cops not doing this already? I mean, the school security officer was a former cop, but cop no longer and he engaged the shooter. The fuckin subway shooter was found by fuckin normal-ass people while the NYPD was busy smashing up homeless encampments for seemingly no other reason than to be dicks, cop in Parkland hid like a bitch, this cop hid like a bitch and more would have died had the CBP agent not been present.

Nothing will change just because of easy access to weapons hat can penetrate body armor that victims aren't wearing to begin with, nor cops that are too scared to confront an armed shooter instead of shooting people in their sleep or unarmed drivers.

[Endus]

Ok then what do you suggest we do that actually has a chance of happening? Cause I get this is largely intellectual for you but some of us actually live in this shit hole and have family we would like to see not get shot at school.

Emigrate, if you can. Vote for meaningful change. Get involved in politics beyond just voting. A lot of this boils down to Americans just sitting by and accepting that "nothing can be done". Sitting by and bemoaning the status quo while not getting involved and working to change it, though, isn't helping anything.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

You mean other people's innocent children being slaughtered. If enough of their kids got an acceptable dose of bullets shit would change.

Only if they got them all in the same shooting.

[Fugus]

I mean...probably not. Most of these shootings are done with handguns and other "civilian" weapons. The added stopping power isn't gonna matter, since shooters are largely shooting children or people shopping or people praying at church - you know, places where people likely aren't fuckin strapped and vested.

As to the bolded...because we aren't frequently seeing chickenshit cops not doing this already? I mean, the school security officer was a former cop, but cop no longer and he engaged the shooter. The fuckin subway shooter was found by fuckin normal-ass people while the NYPD was busy smashing up homeless encampments for seemingly no other reason than to be dicks, cop in Parkland hid like a bitch, this cop hid like a bitch and more would have died had the CBP agent not been present.

Nothing will change just because of easy access to weapons hat can penetrate body armor that victims aren't wearing to begin with, nor cops that are too scared to confront an armed shooter instead of shooting people in their sleep or unarmed drivers.

Potentially, it could go unchanged. But when the imagery of the bodies are that much more mutilated and mangled, makes people even have an even harder time looking at it or risking it on themselves.

And chickenshit cops will have their balls shrink that much more knowing their bodies can end up just as bad and that armor won’t protect them.

We have brave people, we have cowards, and lots in the middle, and the more damaging what they are seeing is, the harder it becomes to be brave.

So can see more times where people flee rather than fight and the cops hold back with the body counts raising even more and imagery so body that it makes what they see now tame by comparison. Especially the stuff in the streets where instead of seeing a body filled with wholes covered you will see a body missing pieces and lots more collateral damage from people getting shot through walls or from further away.

Things will get more brutal and while things might stay the same, there will be an increased push to make things change.

[Edge-]

Potentially, it could go unchanged. But when the imagery of the bodies are that much more mutilated and mangled, makes people even have an even harder time looking at it or risking it on themselves.

They don't show the bodies now, and won't show them in the future. And even if they do, people will complain about how liberal media are trying to shock us into being scared of guns and will just ignore it.

There's no problem these people don't seem able to ignore.

[beanman12345]

More money for police so more innocent black people can get murdered!
Money for mental health care that isn't the problem in the first place!
Money for armed school security who'll either run away to save themselves or just be avoided until the shooting starts!
Reform schools so they function even more like prisons, prepping students for their resulting futures!

Money for mental health, it's not the problem. But money for mental health should happen anyways. But what happens, and just did happen, Gov said "they need money for mental health, go seek mental health." but they won't put any money in mental health. And Beto just interrupted these asshats and walked up and correctly said "YOU'RE THE PROBLEM." to all the republicans in this press conference.