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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinity Cubed View Post
    How is that any different from inviting anyone else you've never met before who turns out to be a bad player (assuming they even are a bad player just because they don't play the way you think they should be played)?

    The arrogance and ignorance is astounding with you people. And you wonder why everyone looks down on you.
    Hold on, because someone disagrees with you, they are ignorant?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    More originality and more dead weight.
    Sounds bad, but this is true. People wanting to try being creative with their RP builds. That's fine and all if you're alone and RPing or with an RP group but when you're doing this as a DPS and doing less DPS than the tank, there's a problem.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Infinity Cubed View Post
    How is that any different from inviting anyone else you've never met before who turns out to be a bad player (assuming they even are a bad player just because they don't play the way you think they should be played)?

    The arrogance and ignorance is astounding with you people. And you wonder why everyone looks down on you.
    If I invite someone and they have all the right talents they at least know what their abilities do, they at least spent the 5 seconds it takes to look up a build to do good damage. Can they still be bad? Sure. But there's at least a decent chance they have a small understanding of their class.

    If I invite someone and they have all the wrong talents that they picked at random it means they have no idea what they're doing. There's a 99% chance they're going to be literal dead weight.

    Personally I wouldn't even consider doing content with someone running some troll build. They're going to be bad players, they're almost certainly going to be obnoxious players, and it's not going to be a fun experience in any way.

  4. #44
    I'm just going to break them down, because i think some are just unfair to count as a "special spec".
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Honor Among Thieves Rogue
    -AoE Fan of Knives interrupt and silence Rogue (pvp)
    Basically, one OP talent that suddenly turned a spec around.

    Remember that Rogue talent in BfA which allowed sub rogues to funnel AoE Dps into one target, Shuriken Storm?
    Yeah, that was OP as fuck and got nerfed, just wasn't an extra talent.

    And that's what Honor among Thieves and AoE Interrupt FoK were as well, they turned a mediocre spec (Sub in PvE; Combat in PvP) into a powerhouse by the virtue of one talent.
    I mean, c'mon, Honor among Thieves pre nerf basically turned Rogue into a one button class, all you have to do is press Slice and Dice and then spam Eviscerate until SnD drops off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Spell Power Enhancement Shaman
    Not a special spec, just depends on scripting of Wotlk.
    The talents were the same as regular Enhance afaik, you just stacked Spellpower instead of regular Hunter / Enhance gear.

    If anything, it was a gear / spell interaction thing, not so much a talent thing because Enhance did a ton of spelldamage in Wotlk by its design and Spellpower boosted Spelldamage.
    The thing that changes drastically here is your choice of gearing, not necessarily the playstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Pro Holy Paladin (converting stamina into spell power...later changed to strength into spell power)
    Fair, but again, was largely just a single talent enabling it.

    Also, can we count "special specs" by the virtue of one talent that was so OP that it already got nerfed mid Wotlk and thus won't even exist in Classic Wotlk?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Preg Pala (Prot Holy Ret Paladin)
    Fair, but afaik is mostly seen as a BG spec, not so much Arena, let alone PvE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Necromancer caster ranged Deathknight (pvp)
    Again, you didn't pick a particular talent combination, you just went with a regular PvP deep Unholy build and pressed Death Coil when you weren't in range of your target and had Runic Power to spare, not like you could spent it on much else during that time.

    Nevermind that Death Coil was the regular Runic power spender for Unholy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Dancing rune blood DK DPS (pre nerf)
    Again, one OP talent, that's not a particular special spec.

    By that virtue, you could count every single DK spec, such as Unholy Tank, Blood Dps is generally the most famous one because that was the Meta Build at one point but then Blood transistioned into a tank spec in 3.2 / 3.3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Arms Prot Tank Warrior
    Only one i would 100% count.
    - You went for a true hybrid build (halfway down Arms, halfway down Prot)
    - Wasn't OP by just one talent, required synergy from multiple ones (Unrelenting Assault, imp. Revenge, Glyph of Revenge)
    - Wasn't that broken that Blizzard nerfed it
    - Had a clear niche (mostly AoE tanking in dungeons)
    - Clear trade off (trading defensive talents for damage / threat talents)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    -Frostfire Mage.
    Existed in theory but never really took off.

    The concept of it was to pick up the benefit of both Frost and Fire talents, but unfortunately it was generally better to just stick to one tree and go all the way down.
    Might've worked if cast time reduction for Frostfire bolt existed and Brain Freeze had been way up in the Frost tree, with the current 3.3.5 talents, you can't pick up Brain Freeze and any solid talents in Fire.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhearte0 View Post
    Is it bad game design if it allowed variety and enabled viable alternate playstyles?
    It's bad according to their design philosophies and core pillars at the time. More variety and choice is almost always better in my opinion.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Yes, we had the freedom to make specs but in the end, the cookie-cutter prevailed, and I remember back then, you could even get kicked from a raid for not having the cookie-cutter build.
    Oh no, you could get kicked from content that 1/10 people were doing?!?!?!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    If I invite someone and they have all the right talents they at least know what their abilities do, they at least spent the 5 seconds it takes to look up a build to do good damage. Can they still be bad? Sure. But there's at least a decent chance they have a small understanding of their class.

    If I invite someone and they have all the wrong talents that they picked at random it means they have no idea what they're doing. There's a 99% chance they're going to be literal dead weight.

    Personally I wouldn't even consider doing content with someone running some troll build. They're going to be bad players, they're almost certainly going to be obnoxious players, and it's not going to be a fun experience in any way.
    You are doing them a favor by not playing with them.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Because joining a dungeon with a melee moonkin, damage disc priest, and 2hand tank warrior isn't a very fun experience.
    Then check what they are rolling with before you enter?
    In the automatic matchmaking content (LFR, Normal/Heroic dungeons) it really doesn't matter. And worst case scenario, you can always kick them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Sounds bad, but this is true. People wanting to try being creative with their RP builds. That's fine and all if you're alone and RPing or with an RP group but when you're doing this as a DPS and doing less DPS than the tank, there's a problem.
    I never had a problem on the meters in TBC/Wrath with my personal Demo builds that were not the cookie cutter ones. Was I blowing everyone out of the water? Not typically, but on some fights I could easily obliterate everyone else if the mechanics were favorable to the build.

    Of course, I did get lots of shit from people who told me not to use the spec I did, even as I out-damaged them. I would literally be out-damaging someone while they spammed me for using a bad spec.

    And those are the type of people wow is made for now.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Yes, we had the freedom to make specs but in the end, the cookie-cutter prevailed, and I remember back then, you could even get kicked from a raid for not having the cookie-cutter build.
    I don't see a problem with this. You're free to run whatever you want but people are free to expect the top choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  10. #50
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    Video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BbgROZ9STY

    Video features crazy player created specs from Wrath era:

    -Honor Among Thieves Rogue
    -AoE Fan of Knives interrupt and silence Rogue (pvp)
    -Spell Power Enhancement Shaman
    -Pro Holy Paladin (converting stamina into spell power...later changed to strength into spell power)
    -Preg Pala (Prot Holy Ret Paladin)
    -Necromancer caster ranged Deathknight (pvp)
    -Dancing rune blood DK DPS (pre nerf)
    -Arms Prot Tank Warrior
    -Frostfire Mage

    And there were many more player created inventions in specs some of which had to be nerfed.
    Lol come on now really? "Proof told talents promote more originality"
    Honor among thieves was bugged, that's why it worked, come on now, its literally in the first 2 minutes of the party.
    also nothing about this build had anything to do with "talent trees" it could literally be a talent these days, it wasnt some "gimicky" build.

    like seriously how is this proof they provided more originality, when most of these builds were literally just... normal builds, going entirely down 1 whole tree.

    the prot pally again was not some "odd made build" it was literally deep dive into prot pally... thats it...
    you could do this stuff these days, very few if ANY of these builds actually require old talent trees, because these builds you have listed are almost all entirely "go deep into this 1 spec... thats it."

    The only way old talent tree was unique was the abiltiy to go partially into multiple trees, if those builds were super good then you would have a point, but few if any of them were.


    The DK was the only real one here, but that was because the spec itself was broken as fuck at launch. a lot of these builds were not good because they were original, but they were good because they were obscenely broken or bugged.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2022-05-26 at 02:37 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    Video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BbgROZ9STY

    Video features crazy player created specs from Wrath era:

    -Honor Among Thieves Rogue
    -AoE Fan of Knives interrupt and silence Rogue (pvp)
    -Spell Power Enhancement Shaman
    -Pro Holy Paladin (converting stamina into spell power...later changed to strength into spell power)
    -Preg Pala (Prot Holy Ret Paladin)
    -Necromancer caster ranged Deathknight (pvp)
    -Dancing rune blood DK DPS (pre nerf)
    -Arms Prot Tank Warrior
    -Frostfire Mage

    And there were many more player created inventions in specs some of which had to be nerfed.
    All those "specs" were terrible and sub optimal. And 1% of the player base hardly provides proof.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by whyabadi View Post
    It's bad according to their design philosophies and core pillars at the time. More variety and choice is almost always better in my opinion.
    There are currently 2,187 talent builds per spec. (8,748 including covenants) If that's not enough variety for you I'm not sure what to tell you.

  13. #53
    People were blissfully uninformed back then. Today nobody would intentionally play a spec that performs 2% worse.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigga93 View Post
    and most of those sucked
    That mentality is largely another issue the game sucks. Unless something is literally the best, people don't want to play it.

    This game would be better if Blizzard took down all the guide sites and forced people to learn on their own.

  15. #55
    I think ppl also forget that for the most part, 90% of the talents were the same if you wanted to actually perform decently, and there were maybe 2 or 3 actual choices you'd make after that. Those 90% that were the same are just the passives baked into the skill book now, or skills u get automatically for picking your spec now, like mortal strike and sweeping strikes. The choice you did end up picking was like do I want gouge to last 0.5 sec longer, or give kick a 50% chance to silence a target for 2 seconds.

    Now you've got 7 talent rows. You get to make a choice at every row. Arguably its not much better because there's usually a best pick depending on which content you're doing. But at least it changes (and easily) depending on the content unlike old talent where 1 build was basically locked in 100%. And now you've got some options to change out an active talent that might yield slightly more dps, with a passive one that eases up the rotation.

    So my point is sure, you had more "variety" back then if you include vastly underperforming builds. And im sure turbo soloing casuals would prefer that. But if you only include builds that actually perform within 10% of the best build, then there is much more variety and choice today

  16. #56
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    I don't see a problem with this. You're free to run whatever you want but people are free to expect the top choices.
    And this is what I mean with that the old talents, and whatever talent system we get will always be cursed by the cookie-cutter demand.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    That mentality is largely another issue the game sucks. Unless something is literally the best, people don't want to play it.

    This game would be better if Blizzard took down all the guide sites and forced people to learn on their own.
    There's a difference between this build makes you do 2% more damage overall today, and this build makes you do over twice the damage overall like it was back then.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Today nobody would intentionally play a spec that performs 2% worse.
    This is objectively wrong.

    Tanks, Paladin specifically, have 3 general specs. Raid Threat, PuG dungeons, and Guildie dungeons.
    While the differences aren't massive, they are still highly noticeable.

    I have a "farming rogue" that has stealth and vanish improvement talents. Just because I don't raid with it doesn't mean the talent build I chose doesn't serve its purpose better than a designated Raid spec.

    Shadow's Embrace/Imp CoE warlocks say hi!

    And I level using whatever I damn well please, optimal or not, and the various tweaks are enjoyable to use. Leveling as a drain-tank warlock can be just as entertaining as a DoT-n-Fear lock, or I can just break out the flaming shotgun and go Fire-Destro.

    This is objectively more creativity and originality than anything retail WoW can offer.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    People were blissfully uninformed back then. Today nobody would intentionally play a spec that performs 2% worse.
    Half of players don't even do M+ or normal+ raids or rated pvp. You overestimate how many players give a shit about min maxing.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    People were blissfully uninformed back then. Today nobody would intentionally play a spec that performs 2% worse.
    Maybe in mythic raids but in m+15s, I definitely find myself playing builds that I enjoy more than actually perform the best. As long as its within like 10% idc. Its more than good enough to clear the content

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