Proof that old Talents promoted more originality from players

[Dorothyjean]

One question, who determines what is optimal and what is sub-optimal?

Math. If you have 5 abilities, as a basic example, and the damage done for each is 1227, 1378, 1569, 1174 and 987... the highest damage is 1569. As you would continue through your abilities, trinkets etc. you start factoring in more numbers and it all adds up to a meta total which is the optimal spec. Another example with WW Monks where depending on the number of mobs during the fight you have to change 2 of your talents because you will get more damage done because of the math.

You don't need to min/max and I always say people should do what they like but one of the factors I see that a lot of people are horrible at is the teamwork perspective. If "I" am in a Normal raid and "I" want to play like this "I" can play like this but that isn't teamwork. Depending on the level of teamwork you want you could be selling your team short by being an "I" which is fine if you're into that sort of thing but from the perspective of everyone else in the raid it slowly builds up as a slight annoyance because all you care about is yourself. I try to play a class/spec that I want to play because that, ultimately, will be my level of fun in the game/raid etc. but once I am doing it I make sure I remove the "I" and do teamwork as my main priority. I enchant everything, min/max as best I can, use flasks, food, dps pots because I want the team to succeed because if they succeed than "I" succeed. In the same note I've met a lot of people who are just "I"'s during a raid and they don't care about dps pots, enchants, gems, changing specs because it's what "you" want to do but ultimately you are a drain on the team regardless of whether you care or not.

Back in the day with the "holy dps paladin" aka the Shockadin. No one liked those people and on some level they knew that because they did almost no healing and they did poor damage and when the loot would go out (because we needed 25 people for the raid) no one really wanted them to get anything because it would benefit someone else better. The same could be said now... you can make a Shockadin now by altering your stats and going full blown DPS but, as per the old days, everyone knows it and considering you don't need 25 people anymore for a raid (or 10) they want people who can succeed at their jobs. If you have a guild of 12 people... it's one thing to help out and be altruistic but deep down no one wants a Shockadin in their raid.

[Rucati]

None of what you said makes even an ounce of sense, especially compared to what you were replying to.

"Make your own group." That solves all problems, according to you people. God knows when others complain about having to play with obnoxious elitist twats, that's what you people say, dust your hands, and go "problem solved!"

But it's absolutely fucking hilarious how you respond when people say the same thing right back at you.

Uh, can you not read?

I literally said if I make a group I won't invite trash to it. That's literally the entire point. How is that a complaint?

[Zendhal The Black]

These builds worked back then because people (we actually) sucked ass at this game.

Nowadays we are doing more simulations than at CERN just so we can efficiently distribute loot from boss... That item has 10 more haste but 10 less mastery? gotta simulate that shit if it doesn't give me 0.001 dps!

Sometimes I just wish people got dumber so that we can enjoy actually playing for fun

[Biomega]

You don't need to min/max and I always say people should do what they like but one of the factors I see that a lot of people are horrible at is the teamwork perspective.

Glad this was brought up because it's so often overlooked.

Of course you can play whatever YOU like - if YOU are the only one affected. But it's not okay to just shift the burden of success in a fight to your team mates unless they're okay with it (implicitly or explicitly). Want to play a cloth-wearing bare-knuckle fist punch warrior? Go for it. ON YOUR OWN TIME. You can't expect people to just be okay with bad performance.

Now, of course that's much less of a big deal than it seems in most cases. There's an unspoken understanding that you do reasonably well and then nobody is going to complain even if you're not 100% min/maxed. But this is still, in principle, something to look out for and respect. Nothing is more valuable than people's time, and while they're free to give it, you're not free to demand it. Once we wander outside of the norm and into the fringe, you better make damn sure your group is okay with your holy dps build or whatever.

The new talents (i.e. current ones as opposed to classic) help mitigate this by generally not being HUGE differences on their own, and/or fairly obvious in what they're used for. The more choices you give people the more potential for them to be dangerously close to infringing on group performance in ways that aren't just acceptable as common courtesy. But because many people apparently think they're alone in the world and everyone has to respect and accept what they're doing when it affects other people, that can create a lot of problems.

[Neuroticaine]

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BbgROZ9STY

Video features crazy player created specs from Wrath era:

-Honor Among Thieves Rogue
-AoE Fan of Knives interrupt and silence Rogue (pvp)
-Spell Power Enhancement Shaman
-Prot Holy Paladin (converting stamina into spell power...later changed to strength into spell power)
-Preg Pala (Prot Holy Ret Paladin)
-Necromancer caster ranged Deathknight (pvp)
-Dancing rune blood DK DPS (pre nerf)
-Arms Prot Tank Warrior
-Frostfire Mage

And there were many more player created inventions in specs some of which had to be nerfed.

Back in Wrath, I enjoyed playing a Holy/Disc DPS priest spec in BGs with talents spread into all three trees. It was great fun, but I would be lying if I said it accomplished anything useful for my team.

[Ryzeth]

Uh, can you not read?

I literally said if I make a group I won't invite trash to it. That's literally the entire point. How is that a complaint?

No, he can't. I'm pretty sure he just clicks on any random person to reply to, then posts some reply about someone else's post instead just so he can start arguments.

[Dorothyjean]

Glad this was brought up because it's so often overlooked.

Of course you can play whatever YOU like - if YOU are the only one affected. But it's not okay to just shift the burden of success in a fight to your team mates unless they're okay with it (implicitly or explicitly). Want to play a cloth-wearing bare-knuckle fist punch warrior? Go for it. ON YOUR OWN TIME. You can't expect people to just be okay with bad performance.

Now, of course that's much less of a big deal than it seems in most cases. There's an unspoken understanding that you do reasonably well and then nobody is going to complain even if you're not 100% min/maxed. But this is still, in principle, something to look out for and respect. Nothing is more valuable than people's time, and while they're free to give it, you're not free to demand it. Once we wander outside of the norm and into the fringe, you better make damn sure your group is okay with your holy dps build or whatever.

The new talents (i.e. current ones as opposed to classic) help mitigate this by generally not being HUGE differences on their own, and/or fairly obvious in what they're used for. The more choices you give people the more potential for them to be dangerously close to infringing on group performance in ways that aren't just acceptable as common courtesy. But because many people apparently think they're alone in the world and everyone has to respect and accept what they're doing when it affects other people, that can create a lot of problems.

Just from my own experience the value of "I" seems to be much bigger than the value of "teamwork" and I prefer teamwork over individual when it comes to raiding and it's why I like doing Heroic raiding and primarily aim for AOTC. At that level you could pretty much play any class or spec and as long as you're doing your best I think most people won't give you flak about anything but at Mythic being optimal should be your goal. A friend of mine is an Aff Lock who raids at Heroic level and he does it because he loves the spec and it's what he always plays in raid and he does decent damage but compared to most... but he puts in the effort. I do the same... even during Normal guild runs I use everything because I'm used to being in a teamwork mindset from older MMOs.

Sadly, like you mentioned in your first sentence, it is incredibly overlooked except at probably the highest level of the game but at any other level... a whole lotta me me me and very little teamwork.

[Infinity Cubed]

Uh, can you not read?

I literally said if I make a group I won't invite trash to it. That's literally the entire point. How is that a complaint?

Because you're also demanding, screaming your head off, and otherwise ranting about how it [expansive talents] shouldn't be an option to begin with.

[Rucati]

Because you're also demanding, screaming your head off, and otherwise ranting about how it [expansive talents] shouldn't be an option to begin with.

If you think I'm screaming you seriously need mental help. I don't really care, it doesn't really effect me because I don't invite trash into my groups in the first place. But I still think it shouldn't exist, because it would make the game as a whole better if the playerbase wasn't as bad.

[potis]

The fact that you think you're making a salient point, rather than being completely oblivious to your own hypocrisy, is truly astounding.

"Play the way *I* want you to play, or get the hell out of 'MY' game!!!!111one"

Some people just didn't have parents that raised them properly.

You can assume whatever you want, all my sentences meant that you will just end up playing with people same as you, struggling to do basic things, those are the consequences, no one cares what you do special snowflake.

[VinceVega]

Originality doesn't mean usefullness.

Just becuase 1 in 1000 players sometimes uses a weird inefficent spec doesn't make the old system really good.

It FELT good while leveling. That is the difference for me. In the endgame the new system is miles ahead imho. I actually respec quite often.

[Kaleredar]

The old system was a player trap dressed up as the illusion of choice, because at the end of the day there was a mathed out, optimal spec that you were pretty much just wrong for not taking.

[Alkizon]

Not going to comment this specific debate, since already did many times, even during recent (all links here) time... but still I want to point out certain inferiority of "local criticism". If you want to criticize "demend of specific build", then I'd note that even when comparing this element, only part of these "requirements" were critical, something like: you must definitely take these and these talents, and you can scatter rest at your discretion. Is idea clear? Now compare how many of these "critical" elements for new and for old system (quote in link mentions this difference, and its reason). So what? Where is more "freedom" of creativity/choice? Even if just in quantitative terms

btw, as has been repeatedly mentioned in this topic, such "mistakes" in design used to have to be nerfed in old system, but they're basis of their design for new one *twirling finger at temple*

ps. F@ck "on e-sports mentality base" design.

[Kralljin]

Of the listed specs, the only 2 that sucked were Arms Prot Tank Warrior and "Preg Pala".

I wouldn't say Arms Port Warrior sucked.

It was a dungeon spec that allowed a Warrior to do insane cleave damage as revenge did solid damage and it having a 1sec CD pretty much allowed you to spam it.
It's not a spec you'd be play in raids or PvP, but considering that dungeons were quite the portion of Wotlk for a lot of people, it's certainly a valid spec.

These builds worked back then because people (we actually) sucked ass at this game.

Most of those specs are the result of a single completely OP talent.

It has nothing to do with player being terrible, a talent that basically filled a rogue's combo points within a single GCD would be OP now as it was back then.

[cparle87]

So? Why do you care how someone else plays? Those "15 bad ones" better suited those specific player's playstyle, and they were having more fun with it. Who are you to tell people how they should play a game?

We live in an age where a spec being 5% below the first spec is considered trash. There's the best and trash, nothing in between. Care to think about your comment again?

[roldy27]

I just hope they allow us to make a large amount of talent templates with seemless switching between those templates (enabled by a tome or in a rest area w/e). The only way I can see the new system being inferior compared to the current system is if it is annoying to deal with. It's not like the current system enables a lot of choice so if the new system were to lead to cookie cutter builds it would at least be comparable to what we have right now.

We live in an age where a spec being 5% below the first spec is considered trash. There's the best and trash, nothing in between. Care to think about your comment again?

The problem of varying power level of different choices is only a problem if it is hard to switch between said choices. If a setup ist 5% worse in one situation than another one but 5% better in another one then it leads to a choice on what to focus on and variety. For example nowadays you hardly see people complain about the balancing of covenant abilities, because it's easy enough to switch between the covenants. And the builds he listed clearly had some kind of niche otherwise they would have never existed on such a big scale.

[Necromantic]

Glad this was brought up because it's so often overlooked.

Of course you can play whatever YOU like - if YOU are the only one affected. But it's not okay to just shift the burden of success in a fight to your team mates unless they're okay with it (implicitly or explicitly). Want to play a cloth-wearing bare-knuckle fist punch warrior? Go for it. ON YOUR OWN TIME. You can't expect people to just be okay with bad performance.

Now, of course that's much less of a big deal than it seems in most cases. There's an unspoken understanding that you do reasonably well and then nobody is going to complain even if you're not 100% min/maxed. But this is still, in principle, something to look out for and respect. Nothing is more valuable than people's time, and while they're free to give it, you're not free to demand it. Once we wander outside of the norm and into the fringe, you better make damn sure your group is okay with your holy dps build or whatever.

The new talents (i.e. current ones as opposed to classic) help mitigate this by generally not being HUGE differences on their own, and/or fairly obvious in what they're used for. The more choices you give people the more potential for them to be dangerously close to infringing on group performance in ways that aren't just acceptable as common courtesy. But because many people apparently think they're alone in the world and everyone has to respect and accept what they're doing when it affects other people, that can create a lot of problems.

In my opinion, this kind of thing is only applicable to things like guilds. When it comes to me running random content, I'll play whatever I like and have fun with. As rude as it sounds, I really don't care what some random guy thinks of my optimization. If I did, the next guy I play with may disagree and think something else is optimal.

[kamuimac]

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BbgROZ9STY

Video features crazy player created specs from Wrath era:

-Honor Among Thieves Rogue
-AoE Fan of Knives interrupt and silence Rogue (pvp)
-Spell Power Enhancement Shaman
-Prot Holy Paladin (converting stamina into spell power...later changed to strength into spell power)
-Preg Pala (Prot Holy Ret Paladin)
-Necromancer caster ranged Deathknight (pvp)
-Dancing rune blood DK DPS (pre nerf)
-Arms Prot Tank Warrior
-Frostfire Mage

And there were many more player created inventions in specs some of which had to be nerfed.

and still there was always only 1 bis build.

which changed to another bis build if previous bis was nerfed

and same will happen now.

you will go each patch to wowhead to check which bis is - will use it and wont ever look at it again untill next patch / buff/nerf round.

and please dont come with " you will experiement" - i still rememebr back in wrath i was completly clueless about game and still when i finaly checked and compared my own build from " absolute must have as raider" i was just 2 points away from bis without checking any guilds just reading what was written there and thinking

you wont experiemnt you will choose whatever you will belive will give you best resoults. and talents in wow are not exackly rocket science.

[Biomega]

In my opinion, this kind of thing is only applicable to things like guilds. When it comes to me running random content, I'll play whatever I like and have fun with. As rude as it sounds, I really don't care what some random guy thinks of my optimization. If I did, the next guy I play with may disagree and think something else is optimal.

That's certainly one way to approach it, but it comes with consequences. If you don't care about others, they also don't have to care about you. If you're fine with that, it sort of works (within limits).

Of course most of the time this isn't an actual issue at all, and things just proceed with unspoken mutual agreement. But it's the edge cases that highlight the problems: when people demand respect for their choices, but refuse to offer respect for other's choices. Especially when it comes to respect for time.

[Nerph-]

People seem to forget that a lot of the content in this game is multiplayer based (obviously), and while you paid for the game and somewhat have the right to choose how you want to play it, you can't forget that when in certain situations, your choices will affect others which in my opinion might not be fair (for example like others have said, doing less dps because you're playing a sub optimal spec).

I'll mess around with specs when I'm doing solo content, or content with friends who don't mind, but when pugging I'll play whatever is optimal.