These builds worked back then because people (we actually) sucked ass at this game.
Nowadays we are doing more simulations than at CERN just so we can efficiently distribute loot from boss... That item has 10 more haste but 10 less mastery? gotta simulate that shit if it doesn't give me 0.001 dps!
Sometimes I just wish people got dumber so that we can enjoy actually playing for fun
Glad this was brought up because it's so often overlooked.
Of course you can play whatever YOU like - if YOU are the only one affected. But it's not okay to just shift the burden of success in a fight to your team mates unless they're okay with it (implicitly or explicitly). Want to play a cloth-wearing bare-knuckle fist punch warrior? Go for it. ON YOUR OWN TIME. You can't expect people to just be okay with bad performance.
Now, of course that's much less of a big deal than it seems in most cases. There's an unspoken understanding that you do reasonably well and then nobody is going to complain even if you're not 100% min/maxed. But this is still, in principle, something to look out for and respect. Nothing is more valuable than people's time, and while they're free to give it, you're not free to demand it. Once we wander outside of the norm and into the fringe, you better make damn sure your group is okay with your holy dps build or whatever.
The new talents (i.e. current ones as opposed to classic) help mitigate this by generally not being HUGE differences on their own, and/or fairly obvious in what they're used for. The more choices you give people the more potential for them to be dangerously close to infringing on group performance in ways that aren't just acceptable as common courtesy. But because many people apparently think they're alone in the world and everyone has to respect and accept what they're doing when it affects other people, that can create a lot of problems.
If I don't respond to something you tagged me in, assume one of two things.
1) Your post was too stupid to acknowledge, or
2) Your post is cringe and not worth replying to.
Alternatively, if it happens a lot I probably have you blocked due to one of the above things. Thank you.
Just from my own experience the value of "I" seems to be much bigger than the value of "teamwork" and I prefer teamwork over individual when it comes to raiding and it's why I like doing Heroic raiding and primarily aim for AOTC. At that level you could pretty much play any class or spec and as long as you're doing your best I think most people won't give you flak about anything but at Mythic being optimal should be your goal. A friend of mine is an Aff Lock who raids at Heroic level and he does it because he loves the spec and it's what he always plays in raid and he does decent damage but compared to most... but he puts in the effort. I do the same... even during Normal guild runs I use everything because I'm used to being in a teamwork mindset from older MMOs.
Sadly, like you mentioned in your first sentence, it is incredibly overlooked except at probably the highest level of the game but at any other level... a whole lotta me me me and very little teamwork.
If you think I'm screaming you seriously need mental help. I don't really care, it doesn't really effect me because I don't invite trash into my groups in the first place. But I still think it shouldn't exist, because it would make the game as a whole better if the playerbase wasn't as bad.
Originality doesn't mean usefullness.
Just becuase 1 in 1000 players sometimes uses a weird inefficent spec doesn't make the old system really good.
It FELT good while leveling. That is the difference for me. In the endgame the new system is miles ahead imho. I actually respec quite often.
The old system was a player trap dressed up as the illusion of choice, because at the end of the day there was a mathed out, optimal spec that you were pretty much just wrong for not taking.
“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
Words to live by.
Not going to comment this specific debate, since already did many times, even during recent (all links here) time... but still I want to point out certain inferiority of "local criticism". If you want to criticize "demend of specific build", then I'd note that even when comparing this element, only part of these "requirements" were critical, something like: you must definitely take these and these talents, and you can scatter rest at your discretion. Is idea clear? Now compare how many of these "critical" elements for new and for old system (quote in link mentions this difference, and its reason). So what? Where is more "freedom" of creativity/choice? Even if just in quantitative terms
btw, as has been repeatedly mentioned in this topic, such "mistakes" in design used to have to be nerfed in old system, but they're basis of their design for new one *twirling finger at temple*
ps. F@ck "on e-sports mentality base" design.
Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-05-29 at 04:00 AM.
__---=== PM me WHERE if I'm unnecessarily "notifying" you ===---__
I wouldn't say Arms Port Warrior sucked.
It was a dungeon spec that allowed a Warrior to do insane cleave damage as revenge did solid damage and it having a 1sec CD pretty much allowed you to spam it.
It's not a spec you'd be play in raids or PvP, but considering that dungeons were quite the portion of Wotlk for a lot of people, it's certainly a valid spec.
Most of those specs are the result of a single completely OP talent.
It has nothing to do with player being terrible, a talent that basically filled a rogue's combo points within a single GCD would be OP now as it was back then.
The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.
I just hope they allow us to make a large amount of talent templates with seemless switching between those templates (enabled by a tome or in a rest area w/e). The only way I can see the new system being inferior compared to the current system is if it is annoying to deal with. It's not like the current system enables a lot of choice so if the new system were to lead to cookie cutter builds it would at least be comparable to what we have right now.
The problem of varying power level of different choices is only a problem if it is hard to switch between said choices. If a setup ist 5% worse in one situation than another one but 5% better in another one then it leads to a choice on what to focus on and variety. For example nowadays you hardly see people complain about the balancing of covenant abilities, because it's easy enough to switch between the covenants. And the builds he listed clearly had some kind of niche otherwise they would have never existed on such a big scale.
Last edited by roldy27; 2022-05-27 at 11:02 AM.
In my opinion, this kind of thing is only applicable to things like guilds. When it comes to me running random content, I'll play whatever I like and have fun with. As rude as it sounds, I really don't care what some random guy thinks of my optimization. If I did, the next guy I play with may disagree and think something else is optimal.
Being assertive is NOT trolling. It's alarming how many people (including moderators) still have not got that memo.
and still there was always only 1 bis build.
which changed to another bis build if previous bis was nerfed
and same will happen now.
you will go each patch to wowhead to check which bis is - will use it and wont ever look at it again untill next patch / buff/nerf round.
and please dont come with " you will experiement" - i still rememebr back in wrath i was completly clueless about game and still when i finaly checked and compared my own build from " absolute must have as raider" i was just 2 points away from bis without checking any guilds just reading what was written there and thinking
you wont experiemnt you will choose whatever you will belive will give you best resoults. and talents in wow are not exackly rocket science.
Last edited by kamuimac; 2022-05-27 at 11:14 AM.
That's certainly one way to approach it, but it comes with consequences. If you don't care about others, they also don't have to care about you. If you're fine with that, it sort of works (within limits).
Of course most of the time this isn't an actual issue at all, and things just proceed with unspoken mutual agreement. But it's the edge cases that highlight the problems: when people demand respect for their choices, but refuse to offer respect for other's choices. Especially when it comes to respect for time.
People seem to forget that a lot of the content in this game is multiplayer based (obviously), and while you paid for the game and somewhat have the right to choose how you want to play it, you can't forget that when in certain situations, your choices will affect others which in my opinion might not be fair (for example like others have said, doing less dps because you're playing a sub optimal spec).
I'll mess around with specs when I'm doing solo content, or content with friends who don't mind, but when pugging I'll play whatever is optimal.