Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Define recent times.

    Icecrown, Dragon Soul and SoO all were nerfed by giving the player a stacking buff, that increased their damage, healing and HP by up to 30%. Legion had Titanforging as a way to nerf their raids. BfA had corrupted gear as a quasi nerf.

    SL is the first expansion in a while that does not have a way to significantly outgear or outbuff the raid, hence why their final raid gets so many nerfs. But Sepulcher is not treated differently than any other final raid before.
    No raid has ever been nerfed to this extent. Heck, we even had whole mechanics being removed from certain (or even all) difficulties. See this patch: disorient suddenly gone from the Lords fight; some knockbacks gone from the Jailer fight. Just last week we had Rygelon Dark Explosion nerf by 45% (basically from a raid one-shot to something you can actually heal through); and the soak thingy nerf by 73% (!!!). We had mechanics scrapped before from the Pantheon fight and I think Anduin too (can't remember them all, so many nerfs). And we're a couple of months into the patch. Giving players a stacking damage buff doesn't even compare, we're talking about changing how some fights work on a mechanical level, that's so much more than just tweaking numbers.

    Scrapping a mechanic from a fight is almost like admitting: "Okay, we went overboard with how much is happening here". It speaks a lot about their philosophy of designing raids nowadays: mechanics over mechanics over mechanics, of course with the mandatory overlaps of everything at once. At some point for many people it's just too many informations to process to still have fun.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-05-31 at 10:27 AM.

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    1,832
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Minuscule population?

    Why don't you just say that only 1 realm is alive and out that realm 1 guild is raiding Mythic?

    You know - do a proper mislead if you are trying to. It's also nice that you are sharing insights, despite that you have no experience in the raid.

    10/10 post.
    the number of players left actively playing this game, who are still raiding, is VERY VERY small, and the number of people who raid and who engage with the mythic difficulty is, by the definition of the word, MINISCULE, if you struggle to wrap your head around that notion then that's a you problem and there's nothing i can do to help you with that, you just need to pull your head out from your arse for 5 minutes and look at all the relevant data that is showing this to be true.

    last time i checked, as someone who has had top 100 world raiding experience and a wealth of high level raiding experience over a decade or more i was well within my right to offer an opinion about the difficulty of any raid, or have the imaginary rules you seem to live by been rewritten and i'm no longer allowed to say anything because 'you weren't there bro'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    No raid has ever been nerfed to this extent. Heck, we even had whole mechanics being removed from certain (or even all) difficulties. See this patch: disorient suddenly gone from the Lords fight; some knockbacks gone from the Jailer fight. Just last week we had Rygelon Dark Explosion nerf by 45% (basically from a raid one-shot to something you can actually heal through); and the soak thingy nerf by 73% (!!!). We had mechanics scrapped before from the Pantheon fight and I think Anduin too (can't remember them all, so many nerfs). And we're a couple of months into the patch. Giving players a stacking damage buff doesn't even compare, we're talking about changing how some fights work on a mechanical level, that's so much more than just tweaking numbers.

    Scrapping a mechanic from a fight is almost like admitting: "Okay, we went overboard with how much is happening here". It speaks a lot about their philosophy of designing raids nowadays: mechanics over mechanics over mechanics, of course with the mandatory overlaps of everything at once. At some point for many people it's just too many informations to process to still have fun.
    yes, but it's also indicative that the players they are making these raids for are no longer at the level that they need to be to clear them and as such need more help than just giving the old 'here do more damage' type of buff dictate, if the players who are engaging in this content were still capable of doing these mechanics they wouldn't need to be removed, but outside of the top end players who have been doing this for years now, the lower end of the spectrum are struggling.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    No raid has ever been nerfed to this extent. Heck, we even had whole mechanics being removed from certain (or even all) difficulties. See this patch: disorient suddenly gone from the Lords fight; some knockbacks gone from the Jailer fight. Just last week we had Rygelon Dark Explosion nerf by 45% (basically from a raid one-shot to something you can actually heal through); and the soak thingy nerf by 73% (!!!). We had mechanics scrapped before from the Pantheon fight and I think Anduin too (can't remember them all, so many nerfs). And we're a couple of months into the patch. Giving players a stacking damage buff doesn't even compare, we're talking about changing how some fights work on a mechanical level, that's so much more than just tweaking numbers.

    Scrapping a mechanic from a fight is almost like admitting: "Okay, we went overboard with how much is happening here". It speaks a lot about their philosophy of designing raids nowadays: mechanics over mechanics over mechanics, of course with the mandatory overlaps of everything at once. At some point for many people it's just too many informations to process to still have fun.
    This describes our raid group pretty well. We are older players that generally raid around work and kids and we are absolutely not close to the cutting edge. But we still like to raid and enjoy it. We have veteran players that have reached the point of information saturation and are missing mechanics because there is just too much happening. We are still clearing. bosses but it just isn't fun.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    yes, but it's also indicative that the players they are making these raids for are no longer at the level that they need to be to clear them and as such need more help than just giving the old 'here do more damage' type of buff dictate, if the players who are engaging in this content were still capable of doing these mechanics they wouldn't need to be removed, but outside of the top end players who have been doing this for years now, the lower end of the spectrum are struggling.
    No, that's hardly the main problem. Even veteran players (like myself) will tell you that the information overload became a big problem recently for many players (who were comfortably clearing Heroic raids in the past). This is not a "no longer capable to" problem, as raids simply didn't have that many mechanics before. That's one thing; the other is, every new patch Blizzard introduces more and more raid-wipe mechanics that are randomly assigned to players, to an extent that was also unknown in the past. Raid leaders have less and less control over who manages certain mechanics, which results in artificially long learning curve (take Fatescribe normal vs heroic for example, where you have no control over who does the rings; how do you learn to do the rings if you're not targeted for 10 or 20 pulls? you don't, which means after those 20 pulls you're still prone to wipe the whole raid). It's also destructive for new players and pugging, as every inexperienced player you invite to the raid is a ticking bomb that can blow off any moment. So no, it's not about people being worse - it's about constant increase of personal responisibility, harsh tuning and information overload. That's why the "lower end of spectrum" is struggling.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    the number of players left actively playing this game, who are still raiding, is VERY VERY small, and the number of people who raid and who engage with the mythic difficulty is, by the definition of the word, MINISCULE, if you struggle to wrap your head around that notion then that's a you problem and there's nothing i can do to help you with that, you just need to pull your head out from your arse for 5 minutes and look at all the relevant data that is showing this to be true.

    last time i checked, as someone who has had top 100 world raiding experience and a wealth of high level raiding experience over a decade or more i was well within my right to offer an opinion about the difficulty of any raid, or have the imaginary rules you seem to live by been rewritten and i'm no longer allowed to say anything because 'you weren't there bro'.

    - - - Updated - - -



    yes, but it's also indicative that the players they are making these raids for are no longer at the level that they need to be to clear them and as such need more help than just giving the old 'here do more damage' type of buff dictate, if the players who are engaging in this content were still capable of doing these mechanics they wouldn't need to be removed, but outside of the top end players who have been doing this for years now, the lower end of the spectrum are struggling.
    What are you talking about?

    Are you seriously judging the game by checking logs? You have no insight of the difficulty of the game or the raid, you have zero interest in retail - yet you speak.

    Because you had top 100 guild experience, you think that this gives you crediblity? Let's all listen to top guild members then, because they represent everything.

    What is wrong with MMO-C members?

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    1,832
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    What are you talking about?

    Are you seriously judging the game by checking logs? You have no insight of the difficulty of the game or the raid, you have zero interest in retail - yet you speak.

    Because you had top 100 guild experience, you think that this gives you crediblity? Let's all listen to top guild members then, because they represent everything.

    What is wrong with MMO-C members?
    based on your logic, there's no such thing as an 'expert in their field', and anybody claiming to be one should just shut up and get lost right? because unless you personally experience something then you can never haver a say in it, does that about sum up your logic pathway?

    i have had plenty experience of the highest levels of play, just because i haven't personally experienced this current iteration of mechanics, i can name many mechanics that work in the EXACT SAME WAY that i have experienced multiple times in the past, putting a new skin on it and calling it new doesn't make it actually new.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    based on your logic, there's no such thing as an 'expert in their field', and anybody claiming to be one should just shut up and get lost right? because unless you personally experience something then you can never haver a say in it, does that about sum up your logic pathway?

    i have had plenty experience of the highest levels of play, just because i haven't personally experienced this current iteration of mechanics, i can name many mechanics that work in the EXACT SAME WAY that i have experienced multiple times in the past, putting a new skin on it and calling it new doesn't make it actually new.
    It's never about the mechanics themselves, so if that was your impression, you're wrong (and probably clueless as to what is being discussed). Information overload is a result of a combination of mechanics which are often overlaping in a deadly way. When you add to that random assignment of mechanics and a large number of raid-wipe mechanics, you get raids that are starting to feel more frustrating than fun to many people. Yes, also people who raid for years now. Arguing that you can give examples of similar mechanics in the past is just silly, because every mechanic taken in isolation is easy. The difficulty is in something else: in overlaping of said mechanics and in penalties applied for both raid and personal mistakes. So yeah, you pretty much need to experience it to have a clue.

  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    1,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    No, that's hardly the main problem. Even veteran players (like myself) will tell you that the information overload became a big problem recently for many players (who were comfortably clearing Heroic raids in the past). This is not a "no longer capable to" problem, as raids simply didn't have that many mechanics before. That's one thing; the other is, every new patch Blizzard introduces more and more raid-wipe mechanics that are randomly assigned to players, to an extent that was also unknown in the past. Raid leaders have less and less control over who manages certain mechanics, which results in artificially long learning curve (take Fatescribe normal vs heroic for example, where you have no control over who does the rings; how do you learn to do the rings if you're not targeted for 10 or 20 pulls? you don't, which means after those 20 pulls you're still prone to wipe the whole raid). It's also destructive for new players and pugging, as every inexperienced player you invite to the raid is a ticking bomb that can blow off any moment. So no, it's not about people being worse - it's about constant increase of personal responisibility, harsh tuning and information overload. That's why the "lower end of spectrum" is struggling.
    you have not made any distinction between difficulty tiers, you keep talking about normal and heroic interchangeably, and feels like you're conflating 'the raid' to mean all encounters in their entirety regardless of difficulty level.

    as to the rest of your comment, give me an example of this 'information overload' because there's been dozens of boss encounters that have had way more mechanics than they really should have had all bundled together and that was part of the challenge of defeating those encounters, if numbers were off then they could be retuned and it would be fine, but not once in the years i raided was there ever an encounter that needed mechanics removed because even after numbers tuning did people still struggle to deal with them when appropriately geared.

    you claim to be a veteran player, but it's clear to me that you either didn't raid years ago or have forgotten/ignored certain encounters, Amber shaper Un'sok in heart of fear had a raid wipe mechanic that was applied to random players in the raid, so EVERYBODY needed to learn the mechanic in order to get through the fight, if the player chosen failed then the raid might as well wipe there and then, there's other examples more recent but that's now a historic reference, if you want to be pedantic the heroic lich king encounter back in the day was an example of this, random player in raid gets chosen for defile debuff if it hits 3+ ppl it's a raid wipe and can't be avoided, while that's a singular mechanic in the fight that does that and more modern encounters have multiple mechanics that do that is a different discussion, ultimately it's that the 'good' players now are so few that it can't cover the 'bad' players who are now being forced to pull their own weight since there's not enough players to carry like there used to be and that's where a lot of the complaints are coming from that i can see.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    you have not made any distinction between difficulty tiers, you keep talking about normal and heroic interchangeably, and feels like you're conflating 'the raid' to mean all encounters in their entirety regardless of difficulty level.

    as to the rest of your comment, give me an example of this 'information overload' because there's been dozens of boss encounters that have had way more mechanics than they really should have had all bundled together and that was part of the challenge of defeating those encounters, if numbers were off then they could be retuned and it would be fine, but not once in the years i raided was there ever an encounter that needed mechanics removed because even after numbers tuning did people still struggle to deal with them when appropriately geared.

    you claim to be a veteran player, but it's clear to me that you either didn't raid years ago or have forgotten/ignored certain encounters, Amber shaper Un'sok in heart of fear had a raid wipe mechanic that was applied to random players in the raid, so EVERYBODY needed to learn the mechanic in order to get through the fight, if the player chosen failed then the raid might as well wipe there and then, there's other examples more recent but that's now a historic reference, if you want to be pedantic the heroic lich king encounter back in the day was an example of this, random player in raid gets chosen for defile debuff if it hits 3+ ppl it's a raid wipe and can't be avoided, while that's a singular mechanic in the fight that does that and more modern encounters have multiple mechanics that do that is a different discussion, ultimately it's that the 'good' players now are so few that it can't cover the 'bad' players who are now being forced to pull their own weight since there's not enough players to carry like there used to be and that's where a lot of the complaints are coming from that i can see.
    I raid since vanilla and I find it moot to discuss it further with someone who has unarguably less experience with recent tiers than I have. I'm pretty sure people who still raid can relate.

  10. #30
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    1,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It's never about the mechanics themselves, so if that was your impression, you're wrong (and probably clueless as to what is being discussed). Information overload is a result of a combination of mechanics which are often overlaping in a deadly way. When you add to that random assignment of mechanics and a large number of raid-wipe mechanics, you get raids that are starting to feel more frustrating than fun to many people. Yes, also people who raid for years now. Arguing that you can give examples of similar mechanics in the past is just silly, because every mechanic taken in isolation is easy. The difficulty is in something else: in overlaping of said mechanics and in penalties applied for both raid and personal mistakes. So yeah, you pretty much need to experience it to have a clue.
    i experienced mythic Tomb of Sargeras, the soaking nightmare with overlapping mechanics to the point you were millisecond perfect or wiped, it's not a new concept, again i'm asking for a specific example of any of the fights you're talking about 'information overload' that can't be directly compared with older encounters that have the EXACT SAME set of 'issues' and were cleared by thousands more people without all these seemingly 'new' issues.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Step 1: Release the most disgustingly overtuned, needlessly difficult raid ever.
    Step 2: Spend the next few months nerfing virtually every boss repeatedly.
    Step 3: Admit you are a pack of incompetent clowns.
    remember when the raids had an increasing stacked buff to "nerf" the raid overtime?

    yeah that happened in the darling beloved WOTLK era.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i experienced mythic Tomb of Sargeras, the soaking nightmare with overlapping mechanics to the point you were millisecond perfect or wiped, it's not a new concept, again i'm asking for a specific example of any of the fights you're talking about 'information overload' that can't be directly compared with older encounters that have the EXACT SAME set of 'issues' and were cleared by thousands more people without all these seemingly 'new' issues.
    Like I've already said, I see no point to compare recent tiers with past tiers in this discussion, since you have no experience of those recent tiers and I have no interest in your theorycrafting. I've discussed this many times with people who have raided both and I can't see what you could add to what we already know (better).

  13. #33
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    in the land of killer unicrons
    Posts
    1,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Clexea View Post
    This describes our raid group pretty well. We are older players that generally raid around work and kids and we are absolutely not close to the cutting edge. But we still like to raid and enjoy it. We have veteran players that have reached the point of information saturation and are missing mechanics because there is just too much happening. We are still clearing. bosses but it just isn't fun.
    so would you say that you and your group were more of a casual audience in terms of raiding?

    is that a result of the mechanics, or is it an age thing where as we get older we lose reaction time and get more stuck in our ways and are less able to change to things, especially things that require rapid responses?

    at what difficulty do you play, and what difficulty have you completed in the past?

    i want to understand the reasoning behind the complaints because for many (not all) most of them are just whining because people can't just faceroll the content and are using the 'too many mechanics' thing as a smokescreen which is something that has been done now for years which is why it's less likely to get a positive repsonse when it becomes a legitimate concern.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Like I've already said, I see no point to compare recent tiers with past tiers in this discussion, since you have no experience of those recent tiers and I have no interest in your theorycrafting. I've discussed this many times with people who have raided both and I can't see what you could add to what we already know (better).
    so after asking now 3 times for examples to help me understand the issue you're trying to raise, you refuse to answer simple questions because it's likely you have no real point, and are now trying to take some imaginary high ground that you seem to believe exists, nothing i have said is 'theorycrafting', and i suggest you stop using words you clearly don't know the meaning to because even if you had used it in the correct context it still wouldn't make any sense.

    you just seem incapable of accepting that there's any other point than the one you're vehemently sticking to.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so after asking now 3 times for examples to help me understand the issue you're trying to raise, you refuse to answer simple questions because it's likely you have no real point, and are now trying to take some imaginary high ground that you seem to believe exists, nothing i have said is 'theorycrafting', and i suggest you stop using words you clearly don't know the meaning to because even if you had used it in the correct context it still wouldn't make any sense.

    you just seem incapable of accepting that there's any other point than the one you're vehemently sticking to.
    What high ground? I simply don't find it worthwhile to discuss this problem in detail with someone who only knows old tiers, when I can discuss it with people who know both (very well, on every difficulty level). Do you find that surprising? For me it's common sence.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    based on your logic, there's no such thing as an 'expert in their field', and anybody claiming to be one should just shut up and get lost right? because unless you personally experience something then you can never haver a say in it, does that about sum up your logic pathway?

    i have had plenty experience of the highest levels of play, just because i haven't personally experienced this current iteration of mechanics, i can name many mechanics that work in the EXACT SAME WAY that i have experienced multiple times in the past, putting a new skin on it and calling it new doesn't make it actually new.
    You are seriously judging the state of the game, with no experience what so ever in current tier raids? It's good that you have a degree in statistics, while having objective and nonbiased conclussions...

    Even if you were a Method member who quit last season, you still woulnd't have any credibility. What you are doing right now is bashing retail just because.

    I could ask any casual in the game right now, who had some experience in the current raid - and this person would have more credibility than you.

    Retail is healthy and the biggest group of people playing it. Like it or not.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-05-31 at 04:52 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Step 1: Release the most disgustingly overtuned, needlessly difficult raid ever.
    Step 2: Spend the next few months nerfing virtually every boss repeatedly.
    Step 3: Admit you are a pack of incompetent clowns.

    And you wonder why people are turning away from Raids to M+.
    Better gear, and easier to get.
    Only need 5 competent players.
    Can do several runs for the same time it takes to get to the raid bosses that might drop improvements.
    The bosses are not near as chaotic as raid bosses have become.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by HankIV View Post
    And you wonder why people are turning away from Raids to M+.
    Better gear, and easier to get.
    Only need 5 competent players.
    Can do several runs for the same time it takes to get to the raid bosses that might drop improvements.
    The bosses are not near as chaotic as raid bosses have become.
    In terms of "reward vs difficulty/work", that's absolutely true - M+ is simply the more fun activity to do. It begs the question why the hell Blizzard is so bent on making raids more & more frustrating, while they have no problems what so ever to give good gear for activities that are at most moderately difficult. It's like they believe raids should be hard by design; while history shows people will gladly run M+ just for fun long after quitting raiding, because reclearing those is just not an enjoyable thing to do at the moment.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    remember when the raids had an increasing stacked buff to "nerf" the raid overtime?

    yeah that happened in the darling beloved WOTLK era.
    Only 2 raids ever had that mechanic (ICC and Dragonsoul).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Step 1: Release the most disgustingly overtuned, needlessly difficult raid ever.
    Step 2: Spend the next few months nerfing virtually every boss repeatedly.
    Step 3: Admit you are a pack of incompetent clowns.
    Easier to claim that a raid is over tuned than to admit you're bad at the game I guess. Let's the LFR crowd have a shot at normal I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Easier to claim that a raid is over tuned than to admit you're bad at the game I guess. Let's the LFR crowd have a shot at normal I guess.
    Haha right you clown.

    Go apply at Blizzard, they're always looking for more funny clowns.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •