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  1. #101
    GDKP would be a lot less of an issue if it wasn't a credit card Andy game. So the whole GDKP market is flooded with credit card gold which then floods everyone else with credit card gold that finally causes this weird GDKP inflation. It is way to far to fix. I have like almost a million gold from GDKPs. To turn back the clock is over. The lack of enforcement on Blizzards end to stop the endless bots that create the gold and then pretty much doing nothing to get in the way of people selling the gold has turned GDKP from a loot system into a means to washing money into the system. I even know some guilds that are heavily involved in selling people gold and then host the biggest GDKPs on the server thus they sell you the gold, get the gold back, and sell it back to the people the next week to repeat the process. So the truth is GDKP isn't evil in itself. But it was allowed to become a black market credit card sham which ruins most the economy and has caused hyper inflation across almost every AH in the game.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    I stopped reading at "the game is so pay to win"


    No, it isn't. Stop making up your own definitions of the phrase. Buying gold from gold sellers, so that you can do GDKP runs isn't pay to win. That's a choice you make, not something done by Blizzard.
    You really are that dense? So essentially, according to your post, p2w is not a choice, and it is forced by the company? Just like every.single.f2p.game where you buy currency with the intent to spend it on ingame items to make your toon stronger, it fits the definition of p2w.
    It is not made by Blizzard, you are right on that. Still doesn't change the fact if you buy gold and use that to purchase gear, it ends up being p2w.

    Times change, so do definitions.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhyroth View Post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...uying_gold_in/

    https://imgur.com/a/QqYjBRA

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_8...Ps9MXS0_Zml3Zy

    Might not be accurate for the entire playerbase (since that's what people will say), but extrapolate these numbers and it's obvious people buy Gold to fund their Raiding and especially their GDKP runs. It's not all whales.
    You're right it's not representative of anything except the people who voted. However, do you really believe everyone who buys gold is a player who will just go out and buy 200k gold and then try to get glaives? I already wrote earlier in the thread, the vast, vast majority of gold buyers are people who just want to fund their raidlogging.

    Farming is kinda irrelevant, most big buyers in GDKPs are people who have run GDKPs for a long time, meaning they have accumulated a lot of gold from GDKPs. Buying an item for 250k gold isn't that much if you factor in that this guy probably has multiple gold caps already because he's doing GDKPs. Now, is he a gold buyer? Maybe, not even unlikely. Did he buy that 250k gold? No very unlikely, it's 2.5k dollars, not to mention the inherent risks in trying to trade that amount of gold - it's a ridiculous notion that every gdkp glaive is a saudi prince or whale.
    Last edited by WaltherLeopold; 2022-05-30 at 03:02 PM.

  4. #104
    tell me again why you guys need gold in classic? Bots make all mats cheap the only thing i can see gold being needed for is GDKPs

  5. #105
    Pandaren Monk Demsi's Avatar
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    It is kind of sad how most Pugs seems to be just Gdkp runs, i wasn't really aware of this problem until my guild took a break from raiding before Sunwell

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Exer View Post
    You really are that dense? So essentially, according to your post, p2w is not a choice, and it is forced by the company? Just like every.single.f2p.game where you buy currency with the intent to spend it on ingame items to make your toon stronger, it fits the definition of p2w.
    It is not made by Blizzard, you are right on that. Still doesn't change the fact if you buy gold and use that to purchase gear, it ends up being p2w.

    Times change, so do definitions.
    Players selling gold on third party websites doesn't make the game p2w sorry.
    If I don't respond to something you tagged me in, assume one of two things.
    1) Your post was too stupid to acknowledge, or
    2) Your post is cringe and not worth replying to.

    Alternatively, if it happens a lot I probably have you blocked due to one of the above things. Thank you.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Oh no. Whatever happened to people running a raid because they...enjoy it?

    Flashback to 2008. We're all waiting for SWP to release, we've been farming BT/Hyjal for months by now. I'm the maintank of my guild, as a bear druid, and my char literally breaks the game. I was walking around Shatt'rath City with 36,000 armour unbuffed. That's the armour cap for lvl 60 targets.

    I solo-tanked, raid lead and hosted bi-weekly Karazhan runs (3-day raid CD ftw), every week. Why? Cause I fucking loved that place. I was 17 years old at the time and the fact my bear was strong enough to solo-tank encounters like Moroes or Attumen (that used to be 2-tanked during T4) made me feel like I was at the top of the world. I always brought 1 guildie healer with me who also enjoyed the raid, he could easily solo heal it. Maybe we had a DPS or two from the guild also join. The rest were PUGs. Loot was rolled out...with a /roll. No gold required. Why? Cause the people there simply enjoyed the content.

    We weren't 2 members from a top-500 EU guild (at the time) boosting people to make gold. We were just 2 nearly-BIS geared raiders having fun in good old Karazhan, while passively helping out PUGgers from our server who couldn't commit to raiding schedules/weren't in guilds and lived the PUG life.

    Why am I sharing this anecdote?

    Cause it harkens back to a time where over-geared players simply stomped old, easy content for the sake of it. It was fun to go back to KZ and see how you did, now that you were in full T6 gear. It was fun to help noobs get their T4 4-set. They were happy. We were happy. This type of PUG is a good thing for the game - a PUG lead by 2-3-4 experienced people, overgeared people, helping random server noobs in content they cleared a year and a half ago. It gives the casuals who can't commit to a raiding schedule the chance to improve their character in a meaningful way.

    I'll also mention that TBC was the time Boosting really started in WoW - Gladiators boosting people to 1850 and 2000 rating for weapons/shoulders, good guilds selling Amani War Bears (I also lead my own bear-selling runs) etc and so forth - but that's different. That doesn't impact the casual PUGger, who raids whenever he can in PUGs, at all. That's organized content of the highest degree - not only do you need the stable group, but you also gotta find buyers and make a schedule. The casual is unaffected by this.

    THIS is where GDKP runs ruin the game. In 2022, there aren't as many people doing what I used to do with KZ. THAT got replaced by GDKP. The casual who can't commit to a raiding schedule can't really join those runs, they're not exactly targetted to him. Unlike my Karazhan runs of 2008. And that, sucks. Not for me or you, who organize and run said raids. But for the casual, who plays 2 afternoons a week and USED to have a thriving PUGging community, which got replaced by GDKP.

    That's not to say GDKP runs are a bad thing - as an Economist by profession I'll be the first to say GDKP runs are the natural progression of events in a free-market economy. Demand for a good/service creates the supply of that good/service, that's part of the basics. I'm only saying that their emergence completely eclipsed another style of pugging that used to be the norm.
    KZ was 1 week cd, not 3 days.
    Being armor capped@60 means nothing since BC is level 70 content
    Solo tanking Attumen and Moroes is no big deal even in pre-t4 gear.
    On the contrary, solo healing KZ in similar gear was mostly impossible.

    In other words, you never played BC and just pulled most of this straight out of your ass

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    It is kind of sad how most Pugs seems to be just Gdkp runs, i wasn't really aware of this problem until my guild took a break from raiding before Sunwell
    Without personal loot it's probably the fairest way to do it. It gives people a lot more agency than say straight random roll.

    Of course, RMT is absolutely a problem in that space. But the principle of GDKP isn't all that bad, not nearly as bad as some people like to make it out to be.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Without personal loot it's probably the fairest way to do it. It gives people a lot more agency than say straight random roll.

    Of course, RMT is absolutely a problem in that space. But the principle of GDKP isn't all that bad, not nearly as bad as some people like to make it out to be.
    It’s not about the principle being bad; it’s about the fact that GDKP approach causes global inflation, thus affecting even players who are here to actually play and socialize, not to see pixels. So no, you cannot just “join a guild and ignore it”

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    It’s not about the principle being bad; it’s about the fact that GDKP approach causes global inflation, thus affecting even players who are here to actually play and socialize, not to see pixels. So no, you cannot just “join a guild and ignore it”
    How, though? It's not creating new gold, it's just shuffling gold around.

    If anything, it's RMT that's behind an influx of new gold because it's fueled by bots farming 24/7. THAT is the problem, not GDKP runs.

  11. #111
    Pandaren Monk Demsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Without personal loot it's probably the fairest way to do it. It gives people a lot more agency than say straight random roll.

    Of course, RMT is absolutely a problem in that space. But the principle of GDKP isn't all that bad, not nearly as bad as some people like to make it out to be.
    I guess my issue with it is that it makes it difficult for players without much gold to get any good gear, they might be able to get some scraps, but there's no way they're getting a cursed vision or DST without a lot of gold or a guild to raid with

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    I guess my issue with it is that it makes it difficult for players without much gold to get any good gear, they might be able to get some scraps, but there's no way they're getting a cursed vision or DST without a lot of gold or a guild to raid with
    Is that such a bad thing, though?

    You're basically saying "I'm not putting any effort into the game either socially or in terms of resource gathering, but I want my shot at the best items same as the people who do". Is that really such a great way to distribute loot?

  13. #113
    Pandaren Monk Demsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Is that such a bad thing, though?

    You're basically saying "I'm not putting any effort into the game either socially or in terms of resource gathering, but I want my shot at the best items same as the people who do". Is that really such a great way to distribute loot?
    It's not "bad" but it's also not good, i'm simply saying that players who dont have a ton of gold or a guild they can raid with are completely out of luck, no matter how good or bad they're at the game it's irrelevant if they haven't been farming gold for hours. And that has little to do with putting in the effort into the game

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    And that has little to do with putting in the effort into the game
    I don't get this last part. You're saying they have no gold or a guild, but it's not about effort - so what ARE they doing? And if it's not getting gold or a guild, why do they deserve loot over people who do the work?

    Shouldn't loot be a reward for effort, rather than just, idk, luck?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Whether or not all the items are available is irrelevant. If you can pay real money to get an advantage in getting said items over other players, it's p2w. And since the vast majority of people blowing massive amounts of money on GDKP runs are buying gold from RMT, that makes GDKP into a form of p2w.
    Nope. I'll reiterate what P2W means and as I've stated before people just wanted to change lanes to suit the way they want to see things but they are wrong. P2W is where something is being offered in the game for real money and is only obtainable through real money. I realize that you can buy gold but that isn't P2W because all of the items obtainable in the game can be obtained without real money. That is also an assumption that all GDKP people buy money when making money on the AH is not that hard these days. The way people do MMOs now are different from how they used to be and in retail and classic I know people who make bank by working the AH and they never need to buy gold ever.

    Also, the item in-game is still obtainable without GDKP so it's more of a convenience of speed versus obtain through attrition which also makes it not P2W.

    People keep trying to change the definition and I'm not budging. Sick and tired of people just rolling over people to get their way but you and the others are wrong about this. GDKP came about because people got tired of the abuse of the DKP system where people could hoard points and they turned it more into a 2-way auction where your effort in and out was rewarded with either an item or gold payout at the end. P2W by how the actual concept works would be showing up to Sunwell Plateau, spending 20 bucks and getting a legendary weapon that was just a tad better than whatever was in Sunwell Plateau and paying $39.99 for it. THAT is P2W... GDKP is not.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    Nope. I'll reiterate what P2W means and as I've stated before people just wanted to change lanes to suit the way they want to see things but they are wrong. P2W is where something is being offered in the game for real money and is only obtainable through real money. I realize that you can buy gold but that isn't P2W because all of the items obtainable in the game can be obtained without real money. That is also an assumption that all GDKP people buy money when making money on the AH is not that hard these days. The way people do MMOs now are different from how they used to be and in retail and classic I know people who make bank by working the AH and they never need to buy gold ever.

    Also, the item in-game is still obtainable without GDKP so it's more of a convenience of speed versus obtain through attrition which also makes it not P2W.

    People keep trying to change the definition and I'm not budging. Sick and tired of people just rolling over people to get their way but you and the others are wrong about this. GDKP came about because people got tired of the abuse of the DKP system where people could hoard points and they turned it more into a 2-way auction where your effort in and out was rewarded with either an item or gold payout at the end. P2W by how the actual concept works would be showing up to Sunwell Plateau, spending 20 bucks and getting a legendary weapon that was just a tad better than whatever was in Sunwell Plateau and paying $39.99 for it. THAT is P2W... GDKP is not.
    I mean your just getting the item with one more step. instead of direct buying the item your buying gold to buy said item. on its basics its the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarinet View Post
    foxxy is basically no longer a fox - more like a badger this game

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    Tell me: how are you "winning" by using real money to buy the exact same currency everyone can gather by simply playing the game?
    Because I am increasing my relative purchasing power compared to you by spending real money. I can now compete more favorably than you despite not having played the game to do so.

    If you and I are in a gdkp and we both want the same piece of gear, and we both had done the exact same transmog farming and had the same resultant gold total, but I bought gold so I have more, I get the piece of gear.

    If you can buy gear with gold, and you can buy gold with money, ESPECIALLY when you are bidding against others with gold for that gear, the game is pay to win. Everything else is irrelevant, I can do everything else in game the same as you.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    It’s not about the principle being bad; it’s about the fact that GDKP approach causes global inflation, thus affecting even players who are here to actually play and socialize, not to see pixels. So no, you cannot just “join a guild and ignore it”
    Again, several reasoned posts have been made in this thread to the contrary that I do not see being disputed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    it's irrelevant if they haven't been farming gold for hours. And that has little to do with putting in the effort into the game
    I'm not sure how farming gold for hours does not require effort.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    If you can buy gear with gold, and you can buy gold with money, ESPECIALLY when you are bidding against others with gold for that gear, the game is pay to win. Everything else is irrelevant, I can do everything else in game the same as you.
    I think what you call it is irrelevant. Some people distinguish between being able to spend real money, but only to get gear faster that can otherwise be obtained in game, and being able to buy gear for real money that you cannot otherwise get ingame and that is objectively better than what is obtainable in game.

    What people call it is arbitrary though, it cannot really be disputed that buying gold allows one access to the former.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    If you can buy gear with gold, and you can buy gold with money, ESPECIALLY when you are bidding against others with gold for that gear, the game is pay to win. Everything else is irrelevant, I can do everything else in game the same as you.
    Debates about what exactly "p2W" entails aside, it's important to be clear here: the problem is the SECOND premise, not the first. What's toxic is the fact that you can buy gold for real money - not that GDKP runs exist.

    They're not entirely disconnected (GDKP does contribute to the demand for RMT gold) but it's the existence of RMT that's making things problematic. Let's not lose sight of that.

  20. #120
    GDKP would be fine if RMT didn't exist (or if Blizzard gave even an ounce of a fuck to do anything to stop it). At this point it's just a way for whales to skip content.

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