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  1. #121
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    100% agree, GDKP is killing the game, it should become illegal.

  2. #122
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    I'm not seeing how the phrase "make friends or get a guild" doesn't solve the problem.

    Why do people expect to get free loot?

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    I'm not seeing how the phrase "make friends or get a guild" doesn't solve the problem.

    Why do people expect to get free loot?
    It doesn't solve it if you don't acknowledge it as a solution.
    I genuinely believe some people simply prefer to leave a thread as soon as a counter argument is presented, let the thread die, and make a near identical thread to assert the same thing and continue asserting it until the same counter argument is made is again made in that thread.
    That and drive by posts. It's easier to avoid counter arguments than develop nuanced, well supported opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    Don't have the debate then but you're still wrong. I've been playing MMO's since beta testing Ultima Online so I have a long history of knowing EXACTLY.
    What? The gold IS bought for real money... What does it matter if its a middle layer? You're still buying gear for gold you bought with real money, real money was spent to get that gold, without it, you couldn't buy any gear in a GDKP run? Hello??

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogarash View Post
    I guess it depends on where you play?
    On Gehennas-Horde there are tons, TONS of Kara, ZA, T5, T6 and even some SWP runs that are Soft Reserve runs. You got people asking for people to sign up all the time. Or they are looking to go ASAP. Either way, there is absolutely no problem to run this content. And with all the gear you can get from badges, which drop literally everywhere except normal dungeons, catching up on gear has never been easier.

    Yes some of the best raids are actually GDKP's, especially the Sunwell ones, since you can't really bring anyone to boost in Sunwell.

    But going on about how it's impossible is just you sounding salty af. Yes, gearing can take a bit more time with the SR route than it would in a GDKP route, but that is also only if you're loaded with gold.

    Also, a very common way to get gold in classic is to trade retail gold, which is perfectly fine.
    Makes you think about J. Allen Bracks words about "You think you do, but you don't", doesn't it? Like, maybe that guy had more foresight then we are giving him credit for, that he understood that the original world of warcraft was created for a demographic of gamers fully new into the mmo genre and predominantly interest in the appeal of a whole virtual world that is inhabited by thousands of other players with whom you can chat, do quests and explore dungeons and not the modern kind of players to whom all of that is nothing really special anymore and who became more invested in performance and gearing.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    Nope. I'll reiterate what P2W means and as I've stated before people just wanted to change lanes to suit the way they want to see things but they are wrong. P2W is where something is being offered in the game for real money and is only obtainable through real money. I realize that you can buy gold but that isn't P2W because all of the items obtainable in the game can be obtained without real money. That is also an assumption that all GDKP people buy money when making money on the AH is not that hard these days. The way people do MMOs now are different from how they used to be and in retail and classic I know people who make bank by working the AH and they never need to buy gold ever.

    Also, the item in-game is still obtainable without GDKP so it's more of a convenience of speed versus obtain through attrition which also makes it not P2W.

    People keep trying to change the definition and I'm not budging. Sick and tired of people just rolling over people to get their way but you and the others are wrong about this. GDKP came about because people got tired of the abuse of the DKP system where people could hoard points and they turned it more into a 2-way auction where your effort in and out was rewarded with either an item or gold payout at the end. P2W by how the actual concept works would be showing up to Sunwell Plateau, spending 20 bucks and getting a legendary weapon that was just a tad better than whatever was in Sunwell Plateau and paying $39.99 for it. THAT is P2W... GDKP is not.
    And I'll reiterate, you're fucking wrong. All you're doing is trying to do mental gymnastics and move the goalposts so you don't have to admit the game is p2w. I very very easily explained how it's p2w. Just because you either don't know what p2w is or don't want to admit it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Because I am increasing my relative purchasing power compared to you by spending real money. I can now compete more favorably than you despite not having played the game to do so.

    If you and I are in a gdkp and we both want the same piece of gear, and we both had done the exact same transmog farming and had the same resultant gold total, but I bought gold so I have more, I get the piece of gear.

    If you can buy gear with gold, and you can buy gold with money, ESPECIALLY when you are bidding against others with gold for that gear, the game is pay to win. Everything else is irrelevant, I can do everything else in game the same as you.
    You're confusing cheating with P2W. There is no P2W in Classic. Only cheating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    And I'll reiterate, you're fucking wrong. All you're doing is trying to do mental gymnastics and move the goalposts so you don't have to admit the game is p2w. I very very easily explained how it's p2w. Just because you either don't know what p2w is or don't want to admit it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
    There is no P2W in Classic. It's called cheating when you buy gold for RMT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You're confusing cheating with P2W. There is no P2W in Classic. Only cheating.

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    There is no P2W in Classic. It's called cheating when you buy gold for RMT.
    Considering Blizzard rarely ever punishes it and when they do it's only a slap on the wrist? It's definitely p2w.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You're confusing cheating with P2W. There is no P2W in Classic. Only cheating.

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    There is no P2W in Classic. It's called cheating when you buy gold for RMT.

    You can most certainly buy gold on retail using tokens and then swap it over to classic via a trade which isn't against any rules.

  10. #130
    I disagree, find the root of the problem and fix that isntead - gold selling.

    My hot take is that Blizzard should be 100% hands off on anything that deals with in game trading. If it's a trade where you give in game currency for an in game item or service, then it should be allowed, it doesn't matter what that service is. The problem is that botting is a thing and people sell gold that is gained from botting, fix that... and if they can't, well then we remain where we are now. Bottom line is I don't think Blizzard should get involved at all when it comes to in game currencies and trading, the whole point of a free player driven economy is that there are no rules except the rules we make for ourselves.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I disagree, find the root of the problem and fix that isntead - gold selling.

    My hot take is that Blizzard should be 100% hands off on anything that deals with in game trading. If it's a trade where you give in game currency for an in game item or service, then it should be allowed, it doesn't matter what that service is. The problem is that botting is a thing and people sell gold that is gained from botting, fix that... and if they can't, well then we remain where we are now. Bottom line is I don't think Blizzard should get involved at all when it comes to in game currencies and trading, the whole point of a free player driven economy is that there are no rules except the rules we make for ourselves.

    The token fixed this

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I disagree, find the root of the problem and fix that isntead - gold selling.
    Agreed. It's the actual problem, everything else is just derivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    My hot take is that Blizzard should be 100% hands off on anything that deals with in game trading.
    No can do. Blizzard needs to be there as guarantor, or people will get scammed left and right. I get the idea you're probably thinking of, though, and I do agree: as long as it's traded safely and fairly and is safe and legal, anything should be allowed. And it's no one else's business what it is except the parties involved.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Clawsout View Post
    I mean your just getting the item with one more step. instead of direct buying the item your buying gold to buy said item. on its basics its the same
    Not really, the extra step is an extra meaning. P2W is paying real money for an item only obtainable with real money. Said that a ton of times now and people just keep drooling on themselves, glazing over and going "But dude..."

    If they are not doing the extra step than it's not P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    What? The gold IS bought for real money... What does it matter if its a middle layer? You're still buying gear for gold you bought with real money, real money was spent to get that gold, without it, you couldn't buy any gear in a GDKP run? Hello??
    So ALL gold in WoW is bought with real money? There is NO middle layer. There is a lot of gold in-game that was not bought with money which is also one of the primary points of GDKP where if you don't get the item you want you are GETTING MORE GOLD FOR NEXT TIME. You're buying GEAR... WITH GOLD...

    P2W is about buying gear that can only be obtained through real money. I keep saying this over and over and over and over and over and everyone keeps missing the point, ignoring the ACTUAL MEANING OF P2W and just saying "Well, GDKP is the same..." except it's not. Not even the same ballpark.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    Not really, the extra step is an extra meaning. P2W is paying real money for an item only obtainable with real money. Said that a ton of times now and people just keep drooling on themselves, glazing over and going "But dude..."

    If they are not doing the extra step than it's not P2W.

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    So ALL gold in WoW is bought with real money? There is NO middle layer. There is a lot of gold in-game that was not bought with money which is also one of the primary points of GDKP where if you don't get the item you want you are GETTING MORE GOLD FOR NEXT TIME. You're buying GEAR... WITH GOLD...

    P2W is about buying gear that can only be obtained through real money. I keep saying this over and over and over and over and over and everyone keeps missing the point, ignoring the ACTUAL MEANING OF P2W and just saying "Well, GDKP is the same..." except it's not. Not even the same ballpark.
    That is NOT what p2w is. P2w also means paying real money for an advantage over a person NOT paying money. Clearly you are just trying to redefine p2w so that it stops applying to WoW.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    And I'll reiterate, you're fucking wrong. All you're doing is trying to do mental gymnastics and move the goalposts so you don't have to admit the game is p2w. I very very easily explained how it's p2w. Just because you either don't know what p2w is or don't want to admit it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
    I am going to explain this for the last time...

    ITEM A IS OBTAINABLE WITH REAL MONEY ONLY... ITEM A IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY ITEM IN GAME.

    THIS IS P2W.

    GDKP is run like an auction where if the item drops that you want you bid on it with in-game gold and if you do not get the items you want you get gold at the end.

    YOU are WRONG. I do not need to admit anything and take your "mental gymnastics" "mental goalpost" "pseudo intellectual debate lingo" and ya-yeet the crap off a cliff because you are wrong.

    What you are doing is going "Well GDKP isn't P2W but I want it to be so I'm going to just say that it is because 'someone might have bought gold with real money' even though you can't prove that but *YOU* are going to move the ORIGINAL GOAL POSTS so you can call GDKP P2W'.

    It's like talking to brick walls... there is ZERO P2W in WoW because none of the items you buy for real money have zero power in pve, pvp or anything else and are purely cosmetic. If you actually read and looked up what P2W ACTUALLY is and not what you want it to be you are going to realize that you've been wrong this entire time.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    P2W is paying real money for an item only obtainable with real money.
    That may be YOUR definition of P2W, but not everyone shares that exclusion clause. To many (possibly even most), even if an item is also obtainable in different ways, as long as you can buy high-power things with real money it's P2W.

    It's additionally complicated in WoW's case because of how things work in terms of "power". Yeah you can theoretically boost/GDKP yourself to the best gear, but then what? What's the "goal" in WoW?

    PvP isn't usually decided on gear. If you get all the top-ranked PvP gear and then compete in top-ranked PvP you'll get your ass handed to you if you're not skilled enough; and if you were, you could get that gear on your own.

    Same with raiding. There isn't really any meaning to having beat a certain raid, and just having the best gear isn't simply going to carry you there. If you pay to be carried there, then what did you really buy?

    If that was P2W then almost ANY game is P2W. You could pay someone to play your account to the highest ranks of LoL, too. For all the good that does you. Heck you could go and buy a friggin' Nobel Prize medal if you really wanted to, and it wouldn't mean jack shit. Because the achievement of getting there on your own isn't something you can buy, and WoW's "reward" is mostly that.

    This is very different in "classic" P2W games like mobile games or whatever, where it's all about gear and power to an overwhelming degree - so much that the most skilled person in the world probably couldn't touch your average rando commando if the gear disparity was high enough. That's not really the case in WoW.

    I'm not saying WoW ISN'T P2W, of course, or that it isn't a problem. It is a problem. But it's not as easy to define as people make it out to be.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That is NOT what p2w is. P2w also means paying real money for an advantage over a person NOT paying money. Clearly you are just trying to redefine p2w so that it stops applying to WoW.
    That is what P2W is... that is how the term originally started.

    There are a handful of old games that were notorious for the shit which is how it started. You even said it yourself "P2W also means paying real money for an advantage over a person not paying money" and in GDKP you do not need real money and I did a ton of them back in the day and never bought gold ever and neither did most of my friends or the guilds I did them with BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T NEED TOO BECAUSE WE WOULD GET MORE GOLD AT THE END OF THE GDKP RUN... WHICH IS THE POINT OF GDKP. If you didn't get the item you wanted you would have more gold for the next run.

    You're wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That may be YOUR definition of P2W, but not everyone shares that exclusion clause. To many (possibly even most), even if an item is also obtainable in different ways, as long as you can buy high-power things with real money it's P2W.

    It's additionally complicated in WoW's case because of how things work in terms of "power". Yeah you can theoretically boost/GDKP yourself to the best gear, but then what? What's the "goal" in WoW?

    PvP isn't usually decided on gear. If you get all the top-ranked PvP gear and then compete in top-ranked PvP you'll get your ass handed to you if you're not skilled enough; and if you were, you could get that gear on your own.

    Same with raiding. There isn't really any meaning to having beat a certain raid, and just having the best gear isn't simply going to carry you there. If you pay to be carried there, then what did you really buy?

    If that was P2W then almost ANY game is P2W. You could pay someone to play your account to the highest ranks of LoL, too. For all the good that does you. Heck you could go and buy a friggin' Nobel Prize medal if you really wanted to, and it wouldn't mean jack shit. Because the achievement of getting there on your own isn't something you can buy, and WoW's "reward" is mostly that.

    This is very different in "classic" P2W games like mobile games or whatever, where it's all about gear and power to an overwhelming degree - so much that the most skilled person in the world probably couldn't touch your average rando commando if the gear disparity was high enough. That's not really the case in WoW.

    I'm not saying WoW ISN'T P2W, of course, or that it isn't a problem. It is a problem. But it's not as easy to define as people make it out to be.
    That isn't MY definition of P2W that is the definition of it when it started. Everyone else keeps changing the shit because they don't like GDKP... and that is the context of this entire thread. As an example I am 10/11 Heroic right now with Sepulchor and let's say I decide to buy Heroic Jailor with my gold... I've never paid any money for my gold and have only acquired it in-game. People think that is P2W but it's not because I am not spending real money on it and originally... the OG meaning of it which spawned from games that did it was the ability to buy items/weapons/armor that gave you an advantage over other players in-game which is something that doesn't exist in WoW because everything, within the context of time, is obtainable. My problem is that it has an original meaning and people are lazy so they just modify the meaning to suit what they want and they do it with EVERYTHING these days and I'm sick of it. Just say you don't like GDKP and move on as an example but calling it P2W is wrong because it's not and isn't even remotely close to it and I don't even do the shit anymore.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    I am going to explain this for the last time...

    ITEM A IS OBTAINABLE WITH REAL MONEY ONLY... ITEM A IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY ITEM IN GAME.

    THIS IS P2W.

    GDKP is run like an auction where if the item drops that you want you bid on it with in-game gold and if you do not get the items you want you get gold at the end.

    YOU are WRONG. I do not need to admit anything and take your "mental gymnastics" "mental goalpost" "pseudo intellectual debate lingo" and ya-yeet the crap off a cliff because you are wrong.

    What you are doing is going "Well GDKP isn't P2W but I want it to be so I'm going to just say that it is because 'someone might have bought gold with real money' even though you can't prove that but *YOU* are going to move the ORIGINAL GOAL POSTS so you can call GDKP P2W'.

    It's like talking to brick walls... there is ZERO P2W in WoW because none of the items you buy for real money have zero power in pve, pvp or anything else and are purely cosmetic. If you actually read and looked up what P2W ACTUALLY is and not what you want it to be you are going to realize that you've been wrong this entire time.
    THAT'S NOT WHAT PAY TO WIN IS YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKING WALNUT. All you're doing is trying to move the goalposts and redefine what p2w is to avoid saying WoW is p2w. Fucking period. You are objectively wrong about what is and isn't p2w.Stop with asinine repeated comments because you're so incredibly fucking wrong that it's not even funny anymore.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    THAT'S NOT WHAT PAY TO WIN IS YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKING WALNUT. All you're doing is trying to move the goalposts and redefine what p2w is to avoid saying WoW is p2w. Fucking period. You are objectively wrong about what is and isn't p2w.Stop with asinine repeated comments because you're so incredibly fucking wrong that it's not even funny anymore.
    No. Go drop off a cliff because you're wrong. You've been wrong since the get go and you're the one changing the goalposts.

    Just remember there was an original meaning to P2W and you missed out on it and are just changing the "goalposts" to suit yourself. You were wrong originally, still wrong and you're going to be wrong every time you hit Reply to me.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    No. Go drop off a cliff because you're wrong. You've been wrong since the get go and you're the one changing the goalposts.

    Just remember there was an original meaning to P2W and you missed out on it and are just changing the "goalposts" to suit yourself. You were wrong originally, still wrong and you're going to be wrong every time you hit Reply to me.
    lmfao and now you're getting even more toxic. You're flat out incorrect. Your incredibly simple definition of p2w is what it was over ten fucking years ago. It's almost like definitions change with time or something. It's doesn't fucking matter what the "original" definition was like 15 years ago. Get with the fucking times and stop telling people they're wrong purely because you're utterly unwilling to upgrade your own internet vocabulary. You are objectively wrong right now.

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