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  1. #1
    The Patient marathal's Avatar
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    Just an odd idea, but what are your thoughts

    We see the comments all the time, the Warcraft player base is getting older, what can we do to get more people back in the game, etc. And it occurred to me. Yes the player base is getting older, people that played when they were 15 are now in their 30’s and those that were in their mid 20’s are now in their 40's (edited because I added incorrectly) with families, careers, and just don't have the time to commit to a level of play necessary to push anywhere near a high level of content progression.

    So what if you changed the philosophy behind the game design. What if the endless cycle of adding more and more systems, adding more complexity, more challenges, higher levels of difficulty, endless grinds... And just stripped that all back to an earlier time when the game had a much simpler design. And go a bit further, go back to the core elements of what makes Warcraft what it excels at. Telling a story, exciting zones to explore (and not get killed by 57 mobs because you tabbed out to look something up) encouraging people to want to group up to complete things.

    Look, I know for myself personally. I will be 60 at the end of the year, I've played video games since Pong and the Atari 2600. I enjoy playing games. I do not enjoy spending an hour completing a handful of quests because it takes me twice as long as other classes or better skilled players to do the same. I barely want to log in once a week. But imagine if things were a bit simpler, and mobs didn't one shot you because you missed that it has 230k health not 23k like the similar creatures wandering about. If things were a bit simpler, I would certainly be logging in more often because I would feel like I was able to progress. And if I was actually able to complete a zone or content, I might even consider rolling an alt to see it from the other faction, or try playing a tank or a healer. Right now it is too involved and requires too much time to commit to just trying to keep up with the game. And what do we see, subscriptions dropping every patch, year after year. So maybe it's time to look at it from a different angle, instead of trying to lure more younger people in to an older game, maybe try to keep those that have stayed for 10+ years, and get back all those that left because it became to much.
    Last edited by marathal; 2022-05-31 at 07:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Getting wrecked by a mob that you underestimated is a truly classic experience.

    Quests in vanilla took much longer to complete than today; therr should be no shame in taking your time....

  3. #3
    People just can't understand that the problem is that the gaming as a whole moved on. It's not 2004 anymore and not even 2009.

    Back when I started in 2005, WoW was a refreshing sleek experience in a world filled with cumbersome, old, blocky games. Many of the hip genres you have now simply did not even exist back then.

    Nowadays though? It's not hip and the genre is old and stale AF. There is no changing that, unless some sort of lucky/desperate innovation comes that manages to click. Going back to how it was in 2004 is not said innovation, the opposite.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Quests in vanilla took much longer to complete than today; therr should be no shame in taking your time....
    See that's the thing - why "take your time", when you can just like... not take you time.

    One of the WoW's issues nowadays is that the time it takes to prepare to have fun is way longer than what fresh gen gamers expect. And they are not in the wrong there - because in the end you play games to have fun, not to grind towards eventually having fun.

    This is a big difference between 2004 and now.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  4. #4
    Lvling ...is the fun part. End game is not the start if the game, it is just where you parse gold and purple between playing the real game.

  5. #5
    Sure take your time but i want to experience as many different games as possible while still accomplishing some goals for warcraft. This is another reason as to why i go for KSM early and move the hell on since everything else takes far to long so why really bother, your real id friends will still be there along with discord. I really do not see a game space for raid centric MMO's with very little to anything else going forward.

  6. #6
    "...people that played when they were 15 are now in their 40's..."

    Game has been out for 18 years, but you are saying there are folks been playing WoW for 25+ years...?

    "I do not enjoy spending an hour completing a handful of quests because it takes me twice as long as other classes or better skilled players to do the same."

    Wanting the entire game 'dumbed down" because you are not as good as other players...?

    "...mobs didn't one shot you because you missed that it has 230k health not 23k like the similar creatures wandering about."

    Sure, why bother to click on a mob & check their HP before attacking them...?

    ---

    I am one of those players that have been playing WoW for awhile (since 2009, tail-end of Wrath), and I also kinda suck at the game (just a scrub trying to have some fun); but I don't feel that dumbing down the game does it any good whatsoever...

  7. #7
    It used to be about the journey. And fun.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    People just can't understand that the problem is that the gaming as a whole moved on. It's not 2004 anymore and not even 2009.

    Back when I started in 2005, WoW was a refreshing sleek experience in a world filled with cumbersome, old, blocky games. Many of the hip genres you have now simply did not even exist back then.

    Nowadays though? It's not hip and the genre is old and stale AF. There is no changing that, unless some sort of lucky/desperate innovation comes that manages to click. Going back to how it was in 2004 is not said innovation, the opposite.

    - - - Updated - - -



    See that's the thing - why "take your time", when you can just like... not take you time.

    One of the WoW's issues nowadays is that the time it takes to prepare to have fun is way longer than what fresh gen gamers expect. And they are not in the wrong there - because in the end you play games to have fun, not to grind towards eventually having fun.

    This is a big difference between 2004 and now.
    In 2004 the fastest way to level and reach endgame was to grind. Then to raid, you fight the same bosses on repeat hoping for the right drops. All MMOs did this. What WoW got right, and why it got so popular, was because the quests were just legitimately fun. But the quests have only imoroved since then, with more interesting mechanics, scripted scenes, voice overs, and cinematics. It has never been the most efficient way to play, and never will be. Taking your time has always been at thr cost of efficiency for the benefit of immersion and fun.

    Take your time.

    What is it that youre "preparing" for exactly? As far as I can tell, you play Exile's Reach's quests, then follow an expansion campaign, then choose to lock yoursekf at 49 to complete it or advance to the next quests, which gradually give you better gear to allow you to more effectively play in the consecutive patch zones. You dont need to rush and catch up to Zereth Mortis, you can still play through the Covenant Campaigns, or even Argus or Order Hall or War Campaigns from other expansions. What is your goal?
    Last edited by Amnaught; 2022-05-31 at 07:41 PM.

  9. #9
    The Patient marathal's Avatar
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    Not necessarily saying to dumb down the game. But I am saying that, at least in my opinion, the direction of the design with more complexity and higher skill levels is not working at keeping people subscribed. An excellent quote comes to mind.


    I'm gonna let you kids in on a secret: I don't design bosses to win fights against the player. I design them to lose *very convincingly.*

    It's like blackjack. I lose if I go way too far under, but I also lose if I go over.

    The game needs to be designed so you can win and keep moving forward. If you are designing for it to lose only some of the time, then you’ve taken it to far.

    Anyway, just my opinion

  10. #10
    A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step - Lao Tzu

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JadedTauren View Post
    A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step - Lao Tzu
    Pretty sure that was Chen Stormstout...! ;^p

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by B01L View Post
    Pretty sure that was Chen Stormstout...! ;^p
    It is good to see another explorer! When some people discover a new land, they immediately seek out the fortresses and temples.
    Not me.
    To get the measure of a people, you need to get your feet dirty. Come, walk the land with me!
    ~~Chen Stormstout

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    What WoW got right, and why it got so popular, was because the quests were just legitimately fun.
    Bullshit. Nobody gave a damn about quests, just like nobody gives a damn now. It was just a (!) you did as a noob until you realized by level 30 that the amount of XP quests give is not worth the running.

    What WoW did was that unlike vast vast majority of MMOs where level grind was the game, in case of WoW - leveling was just a stepping stone towards multiplayer content such as dungeons, raids and PvP. It also was the most responsive, smoothest and prettiest MMO of the time. For many years MMOs could not even match the responsiveness of WoW.

    There is a reason why everyone and their mothers tell you that the biggest revolution that WoW made was its insanely casual approach to MMOs at the time. You leveled up fast and unlocked content fast, relative to other insane grindfests that been around at that time.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Bullshit. Nobody gave a damn about quests, just like nobody gives a damn now. It was just a (!) you did as a noob until you realized by level 30 that the amount of XP quests give is not worth the running.
    Nope. For most it used to be about the journey.
    For...others, when the game became rush, rush, rush, through to top level...well, here we are. Exactly where I believe you want it to be.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    What WoW got right, and why it got so popular, was because the quests were just legitimately fun.
    Tell me you never played an MMO before Wow without telling me you never played an MMO before Wow...

    Cause man quests before Wow wernt that much different it was still "hey go kill 10 bears and collect 5 skills" which means you killed 30 bears the difference was the streamlining wow did

    Let's compare 2 scenes. Starting wow in 2004 and Starting EQ in 2001

    Wow: character is made, brief intro, guy is front and center with an exclamation mark with a quest have a few abilities let's go.

    EQ: start game in field with a bunch of rats. You have a dagger, no abilities, you are playing a mage, there is a quest but you basically have to know it's there and know the keywords to type to get said quest easily missable go kill rats till you can get to area to kill bigger rats

    Then the other little streamlines like food and water in both game where EQs was you needed it or you literally starved to death where wow was the way to restore health and mana... Wanna know how you restored mana in old EQ? Go into wow right now sit somewhere and open your spellbook and stare at it for about 10-15 minutes and we bitch about having to stop to drink for 15 seconds every so often.

    How about rested XP which was revolutionary at the time you got a fucking bonus when you wernt playing to catch up where EQ you literally lost XP when you died.

    Oh let's talk about death too and how wow streamlined that cause EQ if you lagged out at the boat and drowned in the ocean your body is now at the bottom of the ocean and if you want your shit back you gotta dive under and get it. Aww too low leveled to deal with mermaids there after the long trek back? Too fucking bad all that shit you worked your ass off to get is now gone forever go get more shit hopefully you had some back up gear in your bank

  16. #16
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Well, a lot of the RPG elements have been washed out of the game at the altar of QOL changes and 'efficiency.' That's the modern way. It's true that something has been lost and that something seems mainly to apply to exploration and the fun of finding stuff out. Unless you play completely solo it's very difficult now to explore in the game since every last detail is known well before an expansion of patch launches.

    I don't know if that's altogether better or not; that depends entirely on who you are and your expectations. It's certainly different though and unlike others I think some of that could be added back to the game even in 2022. That said some of those RPG elements were mostly time-wasting things that we don't need to see again. Like most things it's not a binary choice. There is a middle ground.
    Most people judge because thinking is hard.

  17. #17
    I'd like less hamsterwheel feeling gameplay. It'd be great. More world content and fun stuff would be awesome. I really look forward to dragon riding. They could add racing and other fun stuff

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by marathal View Post
    We see the comments all the time, the Warcraft player base is getting older, what can we do to get more people back in the game, etc. And it occurred to me. Yes the player base is getting older, people that played when they were 15 are now in their 30’s and those that were in their mid 20’s are now in their 40's (edited because I added incorrectly) with families, careers, and just don't have the time to commit to a level of play necessary to push anywhere near a high level of content progression.

    So what if you changed the philosophy behind the game design. What if the endless cycle of adding more and more systems, adding more complexity, more challenges, higher levels of difficulty, endless grinds... And just stripped that all back to an earlier time when the game had a much simpler design. And go a bit further, go back to the core elements of what makes Warcraft what it excels at. Telling a story, exciting zones to explore (and not get killed by 57 mobs because you tabbed out to look something up) encouraging people to want to group up to complete things.

    Look, I know for myself personally. I will be 60 at the end of the year, I've played video games since Pong and the Atari 2600. I enjoy playing games. I do not enjoy spending an hour completing a handful of quests because it takes me twice as long as other classes or better skilled players to do the same. I barely want to log in once a week. But imagine if things were a bit simpler, and mobs didn't one shot you because you missed that it has 230k health not 23k like the similar creatures wandering about. If things were a bit simpler, I would certainly be logging in more often because I would feel like I was able to progress. And if I was actually able to complete a zone or content, I might even consider rolling an alt to see it from the other faction, or try playing a tank or a healer. Right now it is too involved and requires too much time to commit to just trying to keep up with the game. And what do we see, subscriptions dropping every patch, year after year. So maybe it's time to look at it from a different angle, instead of trying to lure more younger people in to an older game, maybe try to keep those that have stayed for 10+ years, and get back all those that left because it became to much.
    No. For me "getting older" means having lesser passion for games, so I no longer can get so excited, that I don't even notice fatigue from sitting in front of my computer and playing X hours in a row. Game for older players just needs to be more causal. As simple, as that. No FOMO, avoiding grind, especially potentially endless, allowing shorter gaming sessions, not "forcing" player to play game for X hours every day just not to fall behind, allowing player to temporary stop playing to take some rest, change scenery and play something else, more solo-friendly content, that doesn't restrict playing schedule and doesn't put any obligations on player, etc. It's 100500 times beaten horse, you know. For me the biggest offender is FOMO. Sub fee works like "If I've paid - I need to play this game, even if I don't want to do it right now". Sub fee quantum is too big - one week would be more appropriate. Second part of FOMO - is setting some minimal goals in game, I want to achieve, cuz otherwise playing it would be pointless. Something like "At least get all basic Covenant campaign transmog sets", because it's minimal souvenirs, that would show, that I've played SL. If I pay sub fee and start playing this game - then I need to complete this goal. It causes chain reaction of burning out. Content is boring as hell. I start to get tired of it, but instead of just stopping to play, I try to complete it as quick, as possible. And burn out even more as result. It was happening again, again and again, so at some point I simply decided, that it was better not to play at all.

  19. #19
    I would like to see a difficulty slider, either account wide or toon specific.

    Middle would be normal, where the game & experience is now.

    Raising or lowering it would have a similar effect on mobs' health, their attacks, XP earned, and loot drops.

    I would also suggest that it be able to be changed once per day, so you can't lower it to go through some hard content and raise it back up once done. And if done right, it would allow all players of different levels to play together without noticing anything.

  20. #20
    As someone who is now 48, and started playing at 32, I have no interest in extra difficulty, but I am VERY interested in more lore, and quest chains that wrap with amazing cinematics and titles / mounts / gear. But, to appease the idea, I would have WoW come with the same three settings that Diablo has as you are creating your character ... plus one.

    - Normal: Regular mode that consists of Adventuring and stories being told through the most important of questlines
    - Hard Mode: Basically Heroic Mode where mobs hit harder and have more health, putting you in jeopardy, but earning better quest rewards and drops
    - Nightmare mode: Hard mode doubled and loot table drops top gear

    and finally for the "brave"

    - YOLO mode: Nightmare mode + if you die, you die and anything you have on you gets mailed to the account character of your choosing, but is instantly deleted and you have to log out, and create a new one. The only way you survive the game is to find other players in YOLO who also cannot afford to die.

    This way, everyone gets what they want, and you select your difficulty in the character screen. They already have the coding for Diablo, so it should be a cinch to implement, and then everyone from the Casual to the Crazy have a permanent difficulty locked in right from the start.
    “Common sense is not so common.” ~ Voltaire

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