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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord The-Shan's Avatar
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    [SPOILERS] Lordaeron Quests, Tyrande Cinematic

    I feel like what Blizzard is doing with these areas (We've seen it with the Undead retaking Lordaeron) is a massive disservice to the story. Restoring something so close to the status quo feels... Weird and bad.

    Imagine if at the end of Warcraft 3 the humans just walked back into Lordaeron and appointed a council, it feels clunky, weird, and it doesn't feel earned. Let things stay dead, or let them evolve. Personally, I think there could've been cooler ways to handle that story. Imagine if the human settlers of Lordaeron and the Forsaken had to work together, and come together to form a fragile idea of 'the people of Lordaeron', agreeing to share the land. It would've been a win for moving away from the faction warfare narrative, and it'd be a reasonable compromise for the Alliance and the Horde players, rather than undoing the Battle for Lordaeron, it would create an interesting evolution of the idea of Lordaeron, and sort of resolve/plant seeds for the future.

    And, it sounds like something similar is happening with the seed the winter queen gave Tyrande, it sounds as though that one's being undone too.

    I just feel like completely undoing things is a little bit... Clunky, awkward, and stale, and there could've been better ways of doing this. I'm not a fan of complaining, I liked Calia's characterization, and its cool to see the return of the desolate council, but I think they could've done other things that enriched the universe more, instead of just undoing development and saying 'well, I guess we don't have a queen we are a council now', which is development itself, but it just feels so easy, and doesn't really compliment or expand the world in any interesting way. Its a return to normal with the only lesson learned being 'monarchy bad'.
    Last edited by The-Shan; 2022-06-01 at 03:00 AM.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  2. #2
    Dreadlord Kelthos's Avatar
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    I think the fact that they didn't just restore the pre-cata versions of things hints to the possibility of them rebuilding Lordaeron and a new world tree at some point in the future (post-Dragonflight maybe?)

    The burning of Teldrassil and destruction of the Undercity were really just done for shock value and represent low points in wow's storytelling to a fair amount of people so I can understand why Blizz would want to set the stage for restoring what was lost.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelthos View Post
    I think the fact that they didn't just restore the pre-cata versions of things hints to the possibility of them rebuilding Lordaeron and a new world tree at some point in the future (post-Dragonflight maybe?)

    The burning of Teldrassil and destruction of the Undercity were really just done for shock value and represent low points in wow's storytelling to a fair amount of people so I can understand why Blizz would want to set the stage for restoring what was lost.
    Big agree here. I'm glad they're willing to accept where things went sour with some of the old writers that are no longer around, and try and undo some of the damage done from that. Especially when that involves returning things that were lost from the players.

  4. #4
    I get Blizz wants to really sell the aspect of peace between the factions, but I struggle to see a valid reason for the survivors of Lordaeron to willingly tolerate The Forsaken's continued defilement of their homeland considering the untold suffering the Scourge caused to their people. I'm not demanding the general populace succumb to Scarlet Crusade levels of zealotry, but it is unrealistic to expect every Forsaken to simply bow to Calia post-Slyvanas and watch as their own people rot from within due to the lack of plague-infested corpses required to create more Forsaken.

    How can Lordaeron citizens be comfortable with neighbors who more or less need to kill and reanimate corpses to replenish their numbers? I understand Forsaken can die and be reanimated, but we cannot expect that every Forsaken that "dies" receives this treatment. Eventually they will need to resort to using the plague to bolster lost bodies, or accept that their race will eventually disappear from Azeroth for good.

    Edit - I haven't been subbed since the end of 9.1, so if the status-quo for The Forsaken has changed since then, I will admit I was wrong.
    Last edited by Celvira; 2022-06-01 at 03:32 AM.

  5. #5
    Also they even made some sort of cop-out about Forsaken being allowed to return to their families or people if they wanted to…

    But left Delaryn as a forsaken character in Lordaeron despite basically paving the way to fixing this dumbass mistake.

    Why Blizz keep doing that? They make ways and options to fix things in lore , then ignore those instruments and just trundle the shit cart forward? Why are they so weirdly… blind or what?

  6. #6
    The nu-Forsaken will simply be revived by a Naaru from now on. Which means the living humans will have a far easier time connecting to these new, good looking, non evil "Undead", more like humans with a skin condition. Hell, the living don't even have to part with their dying loved ones anymore, because they can now have the option to stay as Calia-Undead, without all the horror and suffering and torturing of their body and soul.

    Welcome to World of Peace- and Cuddlecraft.

  7. #7
    Interestingly, it is Genn, not Turalyon, who orders the players to help Calia. Turalyon is basically the only living character in the Alliance who hails from Lordaeron. It would be interesting to know his point of view on these events.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    I liked how they tried so hard to make me accept Calia as a true Forsaken and yet failed super hard.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I liked how they tried so hard to make me accept Calia as a true Forsaken and yet failed super hard.
    They werent trying. They straight up dont ask your opinion nor care about it. They will crush your race every fiber if they have to.

    Forsaken got off easy so far... Alliance is what the "peak" of this writing looks like.

  10. #10
    While they still failed, I do appreciate that from what I've seen of the datamined dialogue, the thing hinges on Calia proving herself to the Forsaken instead of vice versa and we're spared yet more insufferable bullshit about human-undead family reunions. I'll give my thoughts once I've actually played through it, but just from reading the datamined dialogue, what stands out most of all is that Calia is truly, powerfully boring and the moment you take away her uncanny and unreasonable charisma and actually play it to the hilt in terms of people taking issue with her total lack of qualification or comparable experience you go from her being a pox on the Forsaken to being an appendicitis diagnosis.

    Also, while I appreciate that they remembered that Faranell and Belmont exist, sadly no one bothered to grab an Executor as that'd require checking from before BFA.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They werent trying. They straight up dont ask your opinion nor care about it. They will crush your race every fiber if they have to.

    Forsaken got off easy so far... Alliance is what the "peak" of this writing looks like.
    And yet they still failed.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord The-Shan's Avatar
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    They didn't ask how the forsaken can change, they just sort of changed their leadership. The forsaken aren't improving, they aren't moving forward as a people, they are just governed by a council now. They aren't saying "What does our future look like?" Its a backslide. Its a statement that any meaningful geopolitical changes in Azeroth will be swiftly reverted to preserve this weird status quo. It sucks. Borders shift, empires fade and new ones emerge, yet Warcraft has zero interest in portraying that.

    Sure the Burning of Teldrassil was mishandled, and only delivered in shock value, rather than actually interesting storytelling, but given that its in the past, reversing it isn't the solution, finding a way to use it to make something interesting is.

    The Night Elves lost their only major city. Do they return to the forests? Do they become a refugee people, cast to the wind and their influence diminished? There are a lot of interesting stories to be told from that direction, a people with a grand, ancient history on the brink, at the mercy of their allies, where other forces in the alliance rise to replace their influence.

    The same can be said for the Forsaken. Is the use of Blight ethical? (Of course not) Yet they continue to study it and even placed one of its main propagators on their new council. Imagine the stories that could be told of a people who have done very, very serious ills on the world, their old empire ground to dust. What do the remaining Forsaken do? Do they try to blend into Horde settlements? Do they start to question the use of Blight? Do they crave a final death, now that they know what lay beyond in the Shadowlands?

    Nope, no interesting questions, there is no time for that! The only thing we can ask them is what they think of Calia, who has nothing of substance to say about the future of the Forsaken besides 'lets give back Gilneas'. She hasn't given us her stances, just that she wants the best for the people of Lordaeron. What IS best for the people of Lordaeron, Blizzard? What is Calia's ACTUAL agenda?

    Does the name Forsaken still apply to them? The Night Elves and Thalassian ones can literally just go live in the Alliance again apparently. Nobody is forsaking them anymore.

    They have no place in the world, besides a mission: Continue existing with the curse of undeath, despite knowing perfectly well what lay beyond?

    It's so weird man, it sucks that world of Azeroth has to be a thousand miles wide, and two inches deep.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  13. #13
    I mean, it's obvious what happened.

    They took them out of the limbo of "Whats going to happen to them?" so they can stop talking about them. All things considered, it's a satisfying enough ending considering it leaves plot threads hanging for the future. We got conflict on the council, we got questionable motives (Blight) and that's fine.

    Yeah, they could introduce all those philosophical and deep question, about what makes a Forsaken a Forsaken, but they don't want to waste more time on the Forsaken.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    I feel like what Blizzard is doing with these areas (We've seen it with the Undead retaking Lordaeron) is a massive disservice to the story. Restoring something so close to the status quo feels... Weird and bad.

    Imagine if at the end of Warcraft 3 the humans just walked back into Lordaeron and appointed a council, it feels clunky, weird, and it doesn't feel earned. Let things stay dead, or let them evolve. Personally, I think there could've been cooler ways to handle that story. Imagine if the human settlers of Lordaeron and the Forsaken had to work together, and come together to form a fragile idea of 'the people of Lordaeron', agreeing to share the land. It would've been a win for moving away from the faction warfare narrative, and it'd be a reasonable compromise for the Alliance and the Horde players, rather than undoing the Battle for Lordaeron, it would create an interesting evolution of the idea of Lordaeron, and sort of resolve/plant seeds for the future.

    And, it sounds like something similar is happening with the seed the winter queen gave Tyrande, it sounds as though that one's being undone too.

    I just feel like completely undoing things is a little bit... Clunky, awkward, and stale, and there could've been better ways of doing this. I'm not a fan of complaining, I liked Calia's characterization, and its cool to see the return of the desolate council, but I think they could've done other things that enriched the universe more, instead of just undoing development and saying 'well, I guess we don't have a queen we are a council now', which is development itself, but it just feels so easy, and doesn't really compliment or expand the world in any interesting way. Its a return to normal with the only lesson learned being 'monarchy bad'.
    Nope, no Alliance in Horde lands. It is Horde territory and must be rebuilding with Horde people. Same with new World Tree on NE -> no Horde may be picking part of it.
    Arathi now blue signed, half of silverpine too. Eastern Plaguelands mostly Alliance (yea, technically its neutal, but in fact - paladins with humans.
    For Horde - there is like 2,5 locations now in north EK - Quel'Thalas (for now, I bet it will be neutral in next exp) and destroed Tirisfal with neutral western plaguelands. If we go full neutral and peace - fine. But how about Horde in Alliance lands? Maybe in Elwynn forest? Or Dun Morogh? We see humans even in Durotar and Mulgore. But no Horde in Alliance zones.
    And with that - blue fanbois tell something about Horde favoritism.

  15. #15
    Haven't seen the cinematics yet but it sounds like they are just eager to undo Afrasiabi's work and return to status quo.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord The-Shan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Nope, no Alliance in Horde lands. It is Horde territory and must be rebuilding with Horde people. Same with new World Tree on NE -> no Horde may be picking part of it.
    Arathi now blue signed, half of silverpine too. Eastern Plaguelands mostly Alliance (yea, technically its neutal, but in fact - paladins with humans.
    For Horde - there is like 2,5 locations now in north EK - Quel'Thalas (for now, I bet it will be neutral in next exp) and destroed Tirisfal with neutral western plaguelands. If we go full neutral and peace - fine. But how about Horde in Alliance lands? Maybe in Elwynn forest? Or Dun Morogh? We see humans even in Durotar and Mulgore. But no Horde in Alliance zones.
    And with that - blue fanbois tell something about Horde favoritism.
    Why does it have to be Horde and Alliance? Why can't things change and evolve beyond Alliance and Horde, interesting mingling of cultures and races like Dalaran pre-purge? Having Undead and Humans share somewhere and call themselves neither Alliance and Horde - But Lordaeron would be FAR more interesting than just... Backsliding.

    I think Warcraft has evolved beyond the need for every matter in lore being about sports teams, just tell a good story and make an interesting world.
    Last edited by The-Shan; 2022-06-01 at 07:28 AM.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    Personally, I think there could've been cooler ways to handle that story. Imagine if the human settlers of Lordaeron and the Forsaken had to work together, and come together to form a fragile idea of 'the people of Lordaeron', agreeing to share the land. It would've been a win for moving away from the faction warfare narrative, and it'd be a reasonable compromise for the Alliance and the Horde players, rather than undoing the Battle for Lordaeron, it would create an interesting evolution of the idea of Lordaeron, and sort of resolve/plant seeds for the future.
    Nuance! I love this! In fact I fail to see how a story could move the focus back on the world of Azeroth without drastically lowering the stakes.

    And the same doesn't need to happen in Kalimdor either. Not all races need to get to get along. Maybe there could be an increased collaboration between Thunderbluff and Tyrande which creates increased tensions between Orgrimmar and Thunderbluff. Just small shifts in power suddenly creates so much interesting plot material.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    Why does it have to be Horde and Alliance? Why can't things change and evolve beyond Alliance and Horde, interesting mingling of cultures and races like Dalaran pre-purge? Having Undead and Humans share somewhere and call themselves neither Alliance and Horde - But Lordaeron would be FAR more interesting than just... Backsliding.

    I think Warcraft has evolved beyond the need for every matter in lore being about sports teams, just tell a good story and make an interesting world.
    Right! Subfactions that intersect both factions. Or to use the above example. If there's a druidic covenant, then a player who picks that covenant may actually be banned from certain capitals like Orgrimmar and Ironforge because of their current distrust of what the Druids are up to.
    But in return this player may now walk freely around in both Thunderbluff and the new World Tree.

    Meaningful choices that create new perks and limitations, all by creating a deeper layer than just the Horde and Alliance divide. Horde vs Alliance still exists but there are now different subfactions that are more important.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-06-01 at 07:38 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    They didn't ask how the forsaken can change, they just sort of changed their leadership. The forsaken aren't improving, they aren't moving forward as a people, they are just governed by a council now. They aren't saying "What does our future look like?" Its a backslide. Its a statement that any meaningful geopolitical changes in Azeroth will be swiftly reverted to preserve this weird status quo. It sucks. Borders shift, empires fade and new ones emerge, yet Warcraft has zero interest in portraying that.

    ...Is the use of Blight ethical? (Of course not) Yet they continue to study it and even placed one of its main propagators on their new council. Imagine the stories that could be told of a people who have done very, very serious ills on the world, their old empire ground to dust. What do the remaining Forsaken do? Do they try to blend into Horde settlements? Do they start to question the use of Blight? Do they crave a final death, now that they know what lay beyond in the Shadowlands?

    Nope, no interesting questions, there is no time for that! The only thing we can ask them is what they think of Calia, who has nothing of substance to say about the future of the Forsaken besides 'lets give back Gilneas'. She hasn't given us her stances, just that she wants the best for the people of Lordaeron. What IS best for the people of Lordaeron, Blizzard? What is Calia's ACTUAL agenda?
    The Forsaken do not need to be redefined as the polar opposite of their prior characterization. In fact, that's one of the good things about this questline going in. That the questline starts out with the extant Forsaken leadership already trying to continue and being somewhere along restoring their land, with their population behind them, with Calia being a volunteer to them and being treated with mistrust. Faranell and Belmont immediately try to send her into the plague to choke out and die, but don't mind when there's some utility to get to it and she doesn't become crowned. The only reason she has footing at all is because of Voss and elves (around whom you should watch yourselves) give her the room to do so. Quite obviously the RAS is well suited to sorting their blight issue and wouldn't just disband but instead immediately tell the new leader that she can do whatever and they'll be right at her side improving matters, just don't check too much. Quite obviously they don't reconsider the blight or stitching abominations when they've done so much good for it and in a setting where the Alliance King endorses warlocks who blast your soul.

    Framing the questline as Calia needing to prove her utility to the Forsaken who're already on their feet and recovering rather than her rescuing these poor sadsacks from their own weakness and stupidity was the best way to go about it. The absurdity of Calia going on hoping her new great friends will appreciate her as right next to her Faranell is celebrating how the Blight got some eyebrows raised even in Mald is hilarious. Is it still a trojan horse to make her the de facto leader? Of course, which is why even this shouldn't have happened. But given that bullet was loaded back in BTS, both the Sylvanas book and this questline can't be read as anything but a massive backtrack.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Nope, no Alliance in Horde lands. It is Horde territory and must be rebuilding with Horde people. Same with new World Tree on NE -> no Horde may be picking part of it.
    Arathi now blue signed, half of silverpine too. Eastern Plaguelands mostly Alliance (yea, technically its neutal, but in fact - paladins with humans.
    For Horde - there is like 2,5 locations now in north EK - Quel'Thalas (for now, I bet it will be neutral in next exp) and destroed Tirisfal with neutral western plaguelands. If we go full neutral and peace - fine. But how about Horde in Alliance lands? Maybe in Elwynn forest? Or Dun Morogh? We see humans even in Durotar and Mulgore. But no Horde in Alliance zones.
    And with that - blue fanbois tell something about Horde favoritism.
    While it makes sense the game was beating us to a bloody pulp with "factions are overrated and we should all work together" for two expansions straight. And it had to ENTIRELY destroy night elves as a race to push that point down our throats. Dont you think all this pain and agony should mean SOMETHING in the end?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Forsaken do not need to be redefined as the polar opposite of their prior characterization. In fact, that's one of the good things about this questline going in. That the questline starts out with the extant Forsaken leadership already trying to continue and being somewhere along restoring their land, with their population behind them, with Calia being a volunteer to them and being treated with mistrust. Faranell and Belmont immediately try to send her into the plague to choke out and die, but don't mind when there's some utility to get to it and she doesn't become crowned. The only reason she has footing at all is because of Voss and elves (around whom you should watch yourselves) give her the room to do so. Quite obviously the RAS is well suited to sorting their blight issue and wouldn't just disband but instead immediately tell the new leader that she can do whatever and they'll be right at her side improving matters, just don't check too much. Quite obviously they don't reconsider the blight or stitching abominations when they've done so much good for it and in a setting where the Alliance King endorses warlocks who blast your soul.

    Framing the questline as Calia needing to prove her utility to the Forsaken who're already on their feet and recovering rather than her rescuing these poor sadsacks from their own weakness and stupidity was the best way to go about it. The absurdity of Calia going on hoping her new great friends will appreciate her as right next to her Faranell is celebrating how the Blight got some eyebrows raised even in Mald is hilarious. Is it still a trojan horse to make her the de facto leader? Of course. But given that bullet was loaded back in BTS, both the Sylvanas book and this questline can't be read as anything but a massive backtrack.
    Why shouldnt they be redefined?

    It would be so... wonderful for them to "choose renewal" , dont you think?

    Right? RIGHT?

    I will summarise without scarcasm - EVERYTHING YOU WROTE already happened to the night elves. It kept happening in Shadowlands. It keeps happening in 9.2.5. Then what makes Forsaken "so special" that whip of Blizz hamfisted bullshit shouldnt lash their backs?
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2022-06-01 at 07:55 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Why shouldnt they be redefined?

    It would be so... wonderful for them to "choose renewal" , dont you think?

    Right? RIGHT?

    I will summarise without scarcasm - EVERYTHING YOU WROTE already happened to the night elves. It kept happening in Shadowlands. It keeps happening in 9.2.5. Then what makes Forsaken "so special" that whip of Blizz hamfisted bullshit shouldnt lash their backs?
    Nah, Forsaken got dicked over far worse and far quicker with the double whammy of BTS and BFA and I'm not giving you a prescription of what should and shouldn't happen as regards the Forsaken in my post. I'm being descriptive in telling you what actually takes place in the 9.2.5 questline and how it's a major backtrack from their original intent of Calia as sole ruler flanked entirely by new characters and the Forsaken as her grateful victims to Calia as a secondary figure seeking the approval of people like Faranell and Belmont who's first order of business was sending her on a suicide mission. It's all a sop to presentability and they desperately want to get you to like her, but it's got an inverse of the Baine effect, where they go so over the top in making her appear needy and being grateful for the chance to help while everyone around her except for Voss is apathetic or hostile that it gets kind of endearing. It has that Marie Antoinette vibe I talked over with @Fewane way back.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

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