Poll: Should Lordaeron City be a neutral place?

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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Something like this?



    I think the Argent Lordaeronians should just join the Horde at this point since the Forsaken are their people, the Blood Elves were their closest allies during the Alliance of Lordaeron days, and Calia Menethil is their royalty and she's Horde

    there's also the Blackthorn Bandits who were allies with Sylvanas (well yeah they were possessed but it's within the realm of possibilities that they continued being allies for their best interests; I'd even wager that the human spies of Thrall were the Blackthorns) and they could persuade the Ravenholdt to join them
    In this patch the Blood Elves defeat the Sanlayn Vorath and his undead army. then give half of their kingdom to the sanlayn and the undead?

  2. #122
    This poll is missing an important answer.

    It should be Alliance only.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #123
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nope, you're wrong. Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken have a right to Lordaeron by virtue of being its founders and she did not specify that Dark Rangers are excluded from this claim.
    You keep saying that but who the fuck cares what she said now. Sylvanas is not queen anymore.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    What I am saying is that she at least evacuated her people (forsaken refugees in orgrimmar) and that the alliance of lordaeron completely ignored lordaeron until the end of the third war.

    Sylvanas and the horde forsaken/lordaeron undead will forever have more claim to lordaeron/undercity whatever you want to call it over the stormwind humans that abandoned them during the third war.


    GILNEAS BUILT A WALL TO KEEP THEMSELVES SAFE LMAO THEY DID NOT CARE ABOUT LORDAERON
    They literally thought Arthas was their war hero, you understand that right? When Arthas came back to Lordaeron, they thought he had returned as the champion who ended the Scourge. They believed this because Arthas/Ner'zhul actually pulled back all Scourge forces from Lordaeron in anticipation for Arthas' return, so that the Alliance military would believe that Arthas had indeed succeeded in ending the Scourge threat.

    That is why the people of the city (the future Forsaken, btw) welcomed back Arthas as a war hero, completely oblivious that the Scourge was still a threat.

    When they realized that Arthas had betrayed them and the Scourge was coming, their king was already slain and Arthas was in the process of slaughtering Capital City and turning its people into the undead.

    Literally what was Stormwind supposed to do? When they are literally on the other side of the continent?! And had their OWN civil war to deal with.

    As for Gilneas, Yes, they did. And they paid for it years later when the Forsaken attacked them. But they were not part of the Alliance of Lordaeron at that point and thus your argument is wrong.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-04 at 10:42 AM.

  5. #125
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    In this patch the Blood Elves defeat the Sanlayn Vorath and his undead army. then give half of their kingdom to the sanlayn and the undead?
    I mean the Horde san'layn; surely it wasn't just Dreven and his grunts who joined the Horde - there's also the Dark Rangers too

    but ofc that was just my idea; perhaps the Ghostlands can be cleansed and the Blood Elves can live there again
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I mean the Horde san'layn; surely it wasn't just Dreven and his grunts who joined the Horde - there's also the Dark Rangers too

    but ofc that was just my idea; perhaps the Ghostlands can be cleansed and the Blood Elves can live there again
    all of the blood elf lore is about rebuilding quelthalas. also velonara clearly says that the blood elves reject the darkfallen the home of the undead is lordaeron not quelthalas

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    What I am saying is that she at least evacuated her people (forsaken refugees in orgrimmar) and that the alliance of lordaeron completely ignored lordaeron until the end of the third war.

    Sylvanas and the horde forsaken/lordaeron undead will forever have more claim to lordaeron/undercity whatever you want to call it over the stormwind humans that abandoned them during the third war.


    GILNEAS BUILT A WALL TO KEEP THEMSELVES SAFE LMAO THEY DID NOT CARE ABOUT LORDAERON
    She evacuated some of her people. And again I ask you do you seriously think that if the plan had succeeded and killed the Alliance that she would have went back cleaned up all the blight and resettled? No. They abandoned it.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Don't see anything wrong with that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    The Zombies get the lower city since they have gotten used to the sewers. The living humans and dark rangers can take the upper city with Calia and rebuild Lordaeron to how it was before Arthas destroyed it.

    There's no reason why Alliance and Horde can't coexist in Lordaeron, they already did in Dalaran after all. And Calia was always a proponent for understanding and unity between the living of the Alliance and the dead of the Horde.
    Is an alliance leader going to order another genocide on a race because of the actions of a rogue splinter cell?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They develop stuff anew. They didn't need Scourge buildings to develop their own plague - they could easily do it from within the underground of their former capital city.

    The underground city that had been remodeled by the Scourge to be Arthas's base of Power in Lordaeron? That underground city? Used to produce The plague made with, among many other things, parts of the scourge undead and Plague Spores taken from Naxxramas?

    The Forsaken are salvagers and scavengers.
    Twas brillig

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    When?

    The city was destroyed by Arthas at the start of the Third War and only briefly retaken by Alliance forces led by Garithos, until they were wiped out by Sylvanas.

    Then the Alliance tried twice to reclaim Lordaeron, first under Varian, then under Anduin (and they were actually successful, until Sylvanas did the only thing she can do and started blighting everything).

    You know what they say about the third time, but now the Alliance doesn't need to be hostile to reclaim their rightful place in Lordaeron. They can reach an agreement with Calia.
    I understand why Alliance players covet Lordaeron, as it was where the original "Alliance" itself was founded and successfully unified against the Horde. However, the current reality is that the Forsaken are NOT ruled entirely by Calia, she wields only 1/5 power on the Desolate Council, and the other members are nowhere near as sympathetic to the Allliance she might be.

    Yes, some of the night elf and void elf "dark rangers" might have rejoined the Alliance, but they seem to have abandoned Lordaeron itself, nor have they any sovereign connection to those lands themselves.

    Furthermore, even if the living Lordaeron citizens wanted to share Lordaeron Keep with the Forsaken...how long until another "rogue incident" happened, and half their population is decimated yet again by someone who mistrusted them and wanted them gone? Or what if a Horde-hating spy reminiscent of Garithos and Daelin embedded itself among the living humans, and then one day without warning lashed out and killed lots of Forsaken citizens, sparking another world conflict in the process? There are just too many risks and variable factors to be considered here, and I doubt both factions are on positive terms anyway. Hating each other slightly less after Sylvanas is sentenced does NOT equal friendship by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They care so much for Lordaeron that when Sylvanas sent envoys to join the Alliance, Stormwind made sure said envoys never returned to Lordaeron.
    Well, in honesty, I don't think Varian even knew about those envoys, the Sylvanas novel implied that they were killed by random humans or guards once they stepped foot into Elwynn Forest. Of course, I don't think he'd be welcome anyway...but it might depend. He accepted Thassarian and the death knights back into the Alliance after Tirion's endorsement, easily enough, and Sylvanas was also a notable member of the original Alliance.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-06-05 at 09:44 AM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  11. #131
    Well, ideally yes.

    I want the whole faction thing to just be a personal story choice and not something that gets in the way of players playing together.

    Personally? Don't care. I don't like the Undercity. Won't be there regardless.

  12. #132
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Furthermore, even if the living Lordaeron citizens wanted to share Lordaeron Keep with the Forsaken...how long until another "rogue incident" happened, and half their population is decimated yet again by someone who mistrusted them and wanted them gone? Or what if a Horde-hating spy reminiscent of Garithos and Daelin embedded itself among the living humans, and then one day without warning lashed out and killed lots of Forsaken citizens, sparking another world conflict in the process? [B]There are just too many risks and variable factors to be considered here, and I doubt both factions are on positive terms anyway. Hating each other slightly less after Sylvanas is sentenced does NOT equal friendship by any means.
    the Horde especially the Forsaken were still okay with the Argent Crusade despite Stephon Marris slaughtering Forsaken civilians
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    I understand why Alliance players covet Lordaeron, as it was where the original "Alliance" itself was founded and successfully unified against the Horde. However, the current reality is that the Forsaken are NOT ruled entirely by Calia, she wields only 1/5 power on the Desolate Council, and the other members are nowhere near as sympathetic to the Allliance she might be.

    Yes, some of the night elf and void elf "dark rangers" might have rejoined the Alliance, but they seem to have abandoned Lordaeron itself, nor have they any sovereign connection to those lands themselves.

    Furthermore, even if the living Lordaeron citizens wanted to share Lordaeron Keep with the Forsaken...how long until another "rogue incident" happened, and half their population is decimated yet again by someone who mistrusted them and wanted them gone? Or what if a Horde-hating spy reminiscent of Garithos and Daelin embedded itself among the living humans, and then one day without warning lashed out and killed lots of Forsaken citizens, sparking another world conflict in the process? There are just too many risks and variable factors to be considered here, and I doubt both factions are on positive terms anyway. Hating each other slightly less after Sylvanas is sentenced does NOT equal friendship by any means.



    Well, in honesty, I don't think Varian even knew about those envoys, the Sylvanas novel implied that they were killed by random humans or guards once they stepped foot into Elwynn Forest. Of course, I don't think he'd be welcome anyway...but it might depend. He accepted Thassarian and the death knights back into the Alliance after Tirion's endorsement, easily enough, and Sylvanas was also a notable member of the original Alliance.
    I do not covet Lordaeron, after all I am a Void elf fan. Why would I care about a Human homeland?

    I simply covet good storyline (which is why I am a fan of Void elves, of course ), and I believe there is a good storyline to be told here. One about, hmmm, what's the term... ah yes, Renewal. Instead of Vengeance.

    Like the Night elves, the Forsaken must choose renewal instead of vengeance. They should welcome the Alliance with open arms (if those rotting corpses have any left), instead of still holding grudge for the bunch of ambassadors killed like 15 years ago.

    You say the other members of the Desolate Council are not as sympathetic, but as an Alliance player, both Velonara and Voss seemed to be very amicable and relaxed in BfA. Belmont and Faranell, maybe, will be more distrustful, but they are the minority, and it's already supernatural that Blizzard remembered they exist.

    There are just too many risks and variable factors to be considered here,
    The two factions coexisted peacefully in Dalaran, until a treacherous sect of Blood elves broke neutrality and used neutral ground (Dalaran) to transport Garrosh's war artefact.

    So long as the Horde keeps the blood elves in check/on a leash, there shouldn't be any issues.

    The two factions also coexist peacefully in neutral organization like the Argent Dawn and the Cenarion Circle.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-05 at 09:55 AM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Something like this?

    I think the Argent Lordaeronians should just join the Horde at this point since the Forsaken are their people, the Blood Elves were their closest allies during the Alliance of Lordaeron days, and Calia Menethil is their royalty and she's Horde

    there's also the Blackthorn Bandits who were allies with Sylvanas (well yeah they were possessed but it's within the realm of possibilities that they continued being allies for their best interests; I'd even wager that the human spies of Thrall were the Blackthorns) and they could persuade the Ravenholdt to join them
    If you look at this newly revamped Eastern Kingdoms map more closely in full resolution, you'd be surprised to see how many of the former Horde bases are now Alliance, or at least labeled as such. Pyrewood, Ambermill, Dalaran Crater, Lordamere, Azurelode Mine, Southshore, Stromgarde, all of Gilneas, Tol Barad, etc. are ALL Alliance-held according to this map or whoever made it.
    https://i.imgur.com/cVefmcR.jpeg

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post

    The two factions also coexist peacefully in neutral organization like the Argent Dawn and the Cenarion Circle.
    But those are righteous and moralistic paladins combined with spiritual and nature-loving druids. Even according to Before the Storm, most of the Forsaken do not share the views of the Desolate Council (in seeking to reconnect with their living kin).
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-06-05 at 05:56 PM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  15. #135
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    If you look at this newly revamped Eastern Kingdoms map more closely in full resolution, you'd be surprised to see how many of the former Horde bases are now Alliance, or at least labeled as such. Pyrewood, Ambermill, Dalaran Crater, Lordamere, Azureload Mine, Southshore, Stromgarde, etc. are ALL Alliance-held according to this map or whoever made it.
    I just googled "lordaeron map" and took the first result
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I just googled "lordaeron map" and took the first result
    Lordaeron is too precious to the Horde to be shared with the Alliance. But I do think that some compromises elsewhere are not unreasonable.

    I think the Alliance should perhaps give Alterac to the Horde in exchange for the Horde withdrawing from Andorhal -- perhaps making the Eastern Plaguelands completely neutral -- or the Horde should give the Scarlet Monastery to the Alliance, in exchange for the Alliance making concessions somewhere else. With its closer ties established with the Scarlets, this would tie into any future expansion with Turalyon growing increasingly absolutist and totalitarian, fanatically devoted to the Light. Besides, nothing the Horde or Sylvanas ever did seemed to permanently wipe out the Scarlets' presence in Tirisfal in any case, aligning them with the Alliance might keep them under control in a sense.

    This would be similar to how the Horde has a foothold deep in Darkshore at Shatterspear Vale, I guess.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-06-05 at 06:11 PM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post

    However, now the Alliance has a new claim to Lordaeron, thanks to the aforementioned Dark Rangers who have joined the ranks of the Ren'dorei, and will be playable in 9.2.5.



    .
    The Forsaken claim to Lordaeron City is that they're the undead citizens of said city.

    The Ren'Dorei are elves. They have no claim to Lordaeron.

    The rest of your argument seems to be:

    -Sylvanas said all Forsaken are entitled to Lordaeron
    -The Ren'dorei dark rangers are still Forsaken because Alonsous Faol was referred to as "Forsaken" despite being neutral
    -Ergo the ren'dorei dark rangers have a claim to Lordaeron

    Here are some problems with that:
    1) again, the Forsaken claim is because the bulk of their faction are Lordaeroni citizens, which the elves are not. Not on Sylvanas' opinion
    2) who cares what Sylvanas thinks, she's a traitor to the Horde/Forsaken
    3) the alonsous faol point ignores all the times where the "Forsaken" are clearly a specific faction of undead loosely aligned with the Horde, not all undead
    4) you're taking an obvious QoL decision to keep the RP'ers who endlessly whinged for High Elves from rioting and trying to extrapolate serious lore from it. No, it's just a customization Blizz is giving to all elves

  18. #138
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
    The Forsaken claim to Lordaeron City is that they're the undead citizens of said city.

    The Ren'Dorei are elves. They have no claim to Lordaeron.

    The rest of your argument seems to be:

    -Sylvanas said all Forsaken are entitled to Lordaeron
    -The Ren'dorei dark rangers are still Forsaken because Alonsous Faol was referred to as "Forsaken" despite being neutral
    -Ergo the ren'dorei dark rangers have a claim to Lordaeron

    Here are some problems with that:
    1) again, the Forsaken claim is because the bulk of their faction are Lordaeroni citizens, which the elves are not. Not on Sylvanas' opinion
    2) who cares what Sylvanas thinks, she's a traitor to the Horde/Forsaken
    3) the alonsous faol point ignores all the times where the "Forsaken" are clearly a specific faction of undead loosely aligned with the Horde, not all undead
    4) you're taking an obvious QoL decision to keep the RP'ers who endlessly whinged for High Elves from rioting and trying to extrapolate serious lore from it. No, it's just a customization Blizz is giving to all elves
    I think he means that thanks to new members (or replenished perhaps) of the Ren'dorei - Turalyon has a bigger leverage for his plan to reclaim all former Alliance of Lordaeron holdings
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    I understand why Alliance players covet Lordaeron, as it was where the original "Alliance" itself was founded and successfully unified against the Horde. However, the current reality is that the Forsaken are NOT ruled entirely by Calia, she wields only 1/5 power on the Desolate Council, and the other members are nowhere near as sympathetic to the Allliance she might be.

    Yes, some of the night elf and void elf "dark rangers" might have rejoined the Alliance, but they seem to have abandoned Lordaeron itself, nor have they any sovereign connection to those lands themselves.

    Furthermore, even if the living Lordaeron citizens wanted to share Lordaeron Keep with the Forsaken...how long until another "rogue incident" happened, and half their population is decimated yet again by someone who mistrusted them and wanted them gone? Or what if a Horde-hating spy reminiscent of Garithos and Daelin embedded itself among the living humans, and then one day without warning lashed out and killed lots of Forsaken citizens, sparking another world conflict in the process? There are just too many risks and variable factors to be considered here, and I doubt both factions are on positive terms anyway. Hating each other slightly less after Sylvanas is sentenced does NOT equal friendship by any means.
    Turalyon himself is from Lordaeron, so I can imagine that he would like to get his homeland back into the Alliance. I believe Alliance could gather all Lordaeron refugees they sheltered following Third War, maybe even connecting with Scarlet Crusade to get enough power. He wants to rebuild former Alliance strongholds, as he says in his gossip text, so that align with the notion too.

    The problem is, even if similar scenario would be interesting, I could not see it happen now. I could see it before Forsaken making attemps to retake Lordaeron first, since they abandoned it in BfA. Now they officialy gained the land back and with armistice between Alliance and the Horde, I don't see any activity from the Alliance on this front.

    What I find more promising is Calia's promise to remove Forsaken from Gilneas. That would be great, Gilneas is really popular, even it played really small part in the game actually.

  20. #140
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    all of the blood elf lore is about rebuilding quelthalas. also velonara clearly says that the blood elves reject the darkfallen the home of the undead is lordaeron not quelthalas
    how about this? I'd assume Deathholme is the kind of really-really-unhealable blight if the Sin'dorei would ever be able to heal the Ghostlands with the help of the Argent Crusade, Earthen Ring, and Cenarion Circle

    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

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