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  1. #241
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    And before the discussion starts from scratch, I totally accept you can use any magic to revive a corpse. But why can't there be a necromantic magic in and of itself if Blizzard themselves are so insistent on calling it that?
    "Necromantic" is the adjective form of the noun "Necromancy", with "necromantic magic" just meaning "magic that is Necromancy".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'd say "Whichever agrees with the narrative being pushed at any given time" is always accurate.

    Imo that chart was a big mistake.
    At the time it made sense as Chronicle was supposed to be the primary source of truth for WoW (at least, that is what is was marketed as). It doesn't help that Grimoire of the Shadowlands provides us a significantly more basic cosmological chart with emphasizes Life and Death over every other force and removes the association between the various forces (i.e.: Disorder, Order, Life, Death, etc.) and the magics associated with them (i.e.: Fel, Arcane, Nature, Necromancy, etc.). We've been put in a situation in which a random Broker knows more about the cosmos than the Pantheon of Order, and possibly the Pantheon of Death. It could be argued that the respective Pantheons might just not care too much about the other forces, which may be why the Titans were largely ignorant of many facets of Death, but it just seems weird for them to have less insight.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  2. #242
    Warchief Zoibert the Bear's Avatar
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    It's literally in the name, Nekros is dead body. Nek is the root word for death.

    It's what it means.

  3. #243
    I also considered technology because there are ways to use technology to bring back the dead as well (in fiction) so what would that even be considered? It's still technically Necromancy but it uses all kinds of all kinds of different methods and technologiea.

  4. #244
    The Patient
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    Necromancy is a school of magic. The same way evocation, alteration, divinition etc. etc. are. Even in Dalaran we have the books of school of magic and one of them is necromancy.

    Arcane, Light, Fel, Death are all fuel sources that an individual can you use to power theri spells.
    Human, Draenei, Dwarf, Blood Elve paladins for example use Light to fuel their spells, while Trolls pretty much use death (spirits/loa).
    A human mage uses arcane to power his evocation spells (fireball, frostbolt etc.), where as a human warlock or a demon use fell magic.
    Similarly a human mage that deals with necromancy (forbiden) is basicly using his arcane knowledge to manipulate the dead. Demon necromances (we have seen them in war of the ancients) used fel magic.

    In conclusion Necromancy is a school of magic like evocation, where as death, light, arcane, fel are power sources.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    Sad thing about that, they will not explain anything now, they just let it go, forget. They not build this whole world just open and open new chapters with a little connections between them.
    Which would've been perfect if Blizzard didn't then also try to have their cake and eat it by having NPC's commit drive-by exposition dumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    "Necromantic" is the adjective form of the noun "Necromancy", with "necromantic magic" just meaning "magic that is Necromancy".
    Yes, the magic, itself, is necromantic. And Maldraxxus is its birth place of this necromantic magic. Necromantic magic comes from Maldraxxus. That is the canon.

    And this works. It explains why the Scourge had such a distinct architecture and even 'culture' to it in Warcraft 3. It explains why whenever they show up, people with distinct robes and floating necropolis show up. It's rift through which Maldraxxus steeps. Without this, the scourge design doesn't make sense. So it's great that Blizzard resolved this, just like the resolved the distinct Icecrown architecture.

    What does not make sense is saying 'necromancy is necromancy regardless of what magic powers it.' It's semantically correct but it doesn't hold up within this universe where there's such a thing as a realm from which necromantic magic flows.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-06-05 at 01:25 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    If you're thinking of Galakrond, we still don't know what magic he was associated with.
    It doesn't matter what magic he was associated with. If he was performing necromancy, he was performing necromancy. What kind of magic used is irrelevant.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It doesn't matter what magic he was associated with. If he was performing necromancy, he was performing necromancy. What kind of magic used is irrelevant.
    If we're going to invalidate the chart, is there even such a thing as 'kind of magic', or is it just all the same magic and we're merely naming it by the outcome of the spells? If all magic that reanimates the death is 'necromantic' and the magic itself is superfluous then why not the same for fire, frost, fel and light? Just generic vanilla magic that can do anything depending on how you wield it.

  8. #248
    Holy fuck people 13 pages cause people refuse to fucking understand that you can and always have been able to resurrect bodies with magic OTHER THEN DEATH like holy fuck we have countless lore examples of undead being raised with magic other then death, and druids, paladins, priest, shaman, all resurrecting people as well WITHOUT DEATH MAGIC.
    you are not going to "win" at this argument, because you are objectively wrong, this is not "a major retcon" this is not "an asspull" this is something that has been in the game for decades, and it is finally them just actually talking about it and confirming "yeah it is true"


    we have seen the light raise people from the dead
    we have seen nature raise people from the dead, and even zombies
    we have seen arcane raise people from the dead, and even zombies
    we have seen the void raise people from the dead, and even zombies
    we have seen shadow raise people from the dead
    we have seen death raise people from the dead, and even zombies
    we have seen fel raise people from the dead, and even zombies
    we have seen spirit and water raise people from the dead
    we have seen even fucking fire raise people from the dead
    the only ones we haven't really are water, earth, and air.

  9. #249
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I told you we don't know what Galakrond's corruption was from. It is hinted that he was experimented upon by titanic watchers, like the creatures in Uldir.

    It would have been the first case of necromancy on Azeroth if the Dreadlors haven't delved in it within the Shadowlands for billions of years prior.
    What does it matter? Undead are undead - raising undead is Necromancy plain and simple. It does not matter what, how or even if this was a conscious effort - it is what it is.

    Not even sure why you fight the established fact tooth and nail.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It doesn't matter what magic he was associated with. If he was performing necromancy, he was performing necromancy. What kind of magic used is irrelevant.
    Still. Dreadlords had access to it before he even walked the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    What does it matter? Undead are undead - raising undead is Necromancy plain and simple. It does not matter what, how or even if this was a conscious effort - it is what it is.

    Not even sure why you fight the established fact tooth and nail.
    As i said to lelenia, as denizens of the Shadowlands, Dreadlords had access to Necromancy way before Galakrond.

  11. #251
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    As i said to lelenia, as denizens of the Shadowlands, Dreadlords had access to Necromancy way before Galakrond.
    That's moving the goalposts there, buddy.

    The original statement was that Dreadlords brought Necromancy to Azeroth, which is untrue.

  12. #252
    Shamans, warlocks, and mages all have spells which amount to "Throw Fire at Target". But these are accomplished in different ways. Why would raising the dead be any different?

    Think of it like a cannonball. You can launch it from a cannon, a trebuchet, a catapult, a really big slingshot, or you could even just have a big guy throw it. Same final outcome, just different methods.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I told you we don't know what Galakrond's corruption was from. It is hinted that he was experimented upon by titanic watchers, like the creatures in Uldir.

    It would have been the first case of necromancy on Azeroth if the Dreadlors haven't delved in it within the Shadowlands for billions of years prior.
    boi idk if you know....
    but the shadowlands is not on azeroth...

    Galakrond is as we know of right now, the first necromancer on azeroth.
    the dreadlords did not arrive on azeroth till MANY years later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Still. Dreadlords had access to it before he even walked the earth.



    As i said to lelenia, as denizens of the Shadowlands, Dreadlords had access to Necromancy way before Galakrond.
    You said "The first necromancers on azeroth"
    you are trying to move the goalposts, but we can literally see your prior posts my dude.

    necromancy happened on azeroth LONG before the dreadlords showed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I also considered technology because there are ways to use technology to bring back the dead as well (in fiction) so what would that even be considered? It's still technically Necromancy but it uses all kinds of all kinds of different methods and technologiea.
    usually in wow and stuff its using nature, but using technology to do so, as the electricity is what is bringing back the body.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Holy fuck people 13 pages cause people refuse to fucking understand that you can and always have been able to resurrect bodies with magic OTHER THEN DEATH like holy fuck we have countless lore examples of undead being raised with magic other then death, and druids, paladins, priest, shaman, all resurrecting people as well WITHOUT DEATH MAGIC.
    you are not going to "win" at this argument, because you are objectively wrong, this is not "a major retcon" this is not "an asspull" this is something that has been in the game for decades, and it is finally them just actually talking about it and confirming "yeah it is true"
    Nobody is arguing against the claim that other schools of magic can revive people back from the death. Not a single post in this entire thread has done that. What's more, there's not even anyone here who argues against the idea that reanimating corpses by any means is semantically considered necromancy.

    What the debate is focused on, is what 'necromancy' and 'necromantic energy' entails. Some people say that the outcome is what defines the magic and that there's no such thing as a necromantic magic, just other forms being used for it. And some people (yours truly is on this side of the debate) is arguing that necromancy is a magic onto itself. I would even go as far and assert that necromantic magic can be used for other means than reanimating corpses. Like, plagues, or spreading blight across a place, or augmenting the living, or imbuing it into potions and items.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's moving the goalposts there, buddy.

    The original statement was that Dreadlords brought Necromancy to Azeroth, which is untrue.
    *Brought it to the different cosmic forces

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    boi idk if you know....
    but the shadowlands is not on azeroth...

    Galakrond is as we know of right now, the first necromancer on azeroth.
    the dreadlords did not arrive on azeroth till MANY years later.
    I know it's not on Azeroth. It existed way before it.

    You said "The first necromancers on azeroth"
    you are trying to move the goalposts, but we can literally see your prior posts my dude.

    necromancy happened on azeroth LONG before the dreadlords showed up.
    Well yeah, with Galakrond. But, it doesn't matter if necromancy was spread to the other cosmic forces prior to it.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    If we're going to invalidate the chart, is there even such a thing as 'kind of magic', or is it just all the same magic and we're merely naming it by the outcome of the spells? If all magic that reanimates the death is 'necromantic' and the magic itself is superfluous then why not the same for fire, frost, fel and light? Just generic vanilla magic that can do anything depending on how you wield it.
    You're getting it wrong, here.

    "Necromancy" is not a magic type, like elemental, nature, void, light, etc.

    "Necromancy" is a spell school type, like abjuration, conjuration, illusion, enchanting, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Still. Dreadlords had access to it before he even walked the earth.
    And? Unless you can show us how the dreadlords taught necromancy to Galakrond, that's ultimately irrelevant.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And? Unless you can show us how the dreadlords taught necromancy to Galakrond, that's ultimately irrelevant.
    Taught necromancy to Galakrond?

    No. The magic he was infused with would give us the hint.
    It's not about individuals. It's about the cosmic forces being used.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Y"Necromancy" is a spell school type, like abjuration, conjuration, illusion, enchanting, etc.
    In the semantic sense you're entirely correct. Fully granted. Any time someone reanimates a corpse, it's 'necromancy'.

    But Blizzard also says that 'necromantic magic' is something that's born in Maldraxxus



    And 'necromantic' firmly sits in the Death part of the compass.



    And let's not forget that there's an 'Extract of Necromantic Power':

    https://www.wowhead.com/item=40373/e...romantic-power

    And also 'Necromantic Oil'

    https://www.wowhead.com/item=174076/necromantic-oil


    There's no such thing as a conjuratic magic, or a illusionitic magic, or an abjuratic magic. Instead magic is used for conjurations, illusions, and abjurations. But there is such a thing as necromantic magic. And this, with the evidence as above and also the way Blizzard has always depicted Necromancy surrounded by glowy oozy ectoplasmic stuff gives the idea that there's such a thing as necromantic energy, a necromantic essence that's the fuel for which most (but, by no means all) forms of necromancy are driven.

    This does not invalidate that you can perform necromancy by other means. There's no way around that. But it's not the way Blizzard has been treating necromancy up to now.

  19. #259
    Bloodsail Admiral Krawu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    Except she isn't. Raising the dead is raising the dead, doesn't matter what the magic used to do it.
    When you look at it it's clearly different though. Performing a "true" resurrection is clearly different than raising a mindless or mind controlled undead shell so it can do your bidding.
    While I still think this is the Margrave cynically badmouthing the Light (which would totally be in-character), you could argue that the BRez the Death Night uses is a "true" resurrection. It seems that there's a point where we need to separate gameplay and balance design decisions from official lore.
    Lore-wise, there seems to be a trend from very few intelligent creatures controlling vast numbers of mindless undead in WC3 to undead in general becoming more and more intelligent over the course of WoW.

    Not everything can always be consistent 100% of the time with this many people involved in writing the story. Even less so if they shoehorn in an ability they want a particular class to have for balance reasons and damn the lore.

    I think at this point it's impossible to really follow WoW Lore without at least some degree of head canon and lots of leeway.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    I think at this point it's impossible to really follow WoW Lore without at least some degree of head canon and lots of leeway.
    Which is why they should be careful with narrowing things down without a very good reason. Flippant NPC remarks are unlikely to be a good reason.

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