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  1. #321
    "Necromancy is the art of reanimating unliving flesh." literally means that everytime something gets brought back to life, it's considered 'necromancy'.

    To then retcon 'necromantic' as a type of magic from the lore by turning it into a tautology ('necromancy is necromancy') is both pretentious and carelessly destroying lore without any clear reason.

  2. #322
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Death magic could always do that already, there's also spirit magic that doesn't involve corpses.

    So in both ways it's not necessary to redefine necromancy. It doesn't enable Death to do more than that, because it already could. And it doesn't enable other forms of magic to perform necromancy, as they already could. All it achieves is a reduction.
    It helps define the use of death magic to more than just 'raise undead' for those who previously couldn't divorce the two concepts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    "Beings". Galakrond.
    These beings still draw their power from the different cosmic forces, which the Dreadlords have infiltrated and spread their influence.
    Dreadlords did not exist on Azeroth at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It helps define the use of death magic to more than just 'raise undead' for those who previously couldn't divorce the two concepts.
    But it no longer defines necromantic magic as more than just 'raise undead'. Even though users could derive other value from it as well:

    https://www.wowhead.com/item=40373/e...romantic-power

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Dreadlords did not exist on Azeroth at the time.
    They don't need to.
    Cosmic forces predate Azeroth.

  5. #325
    Pandaren Monk Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I'm wondering if we'll ever get a reason as to why the Titans were so incorrect in their assessment of the cosmic forces. Perhaps they were wrong about death because necromancy, and those who use it, are just so limited in what they can do that it just wasn't worth investigating? Considering that Zovaal, who was formerly the arbiter and likely had an understanding of undeath, opted to use the built-in defenses of the Sepulcher of the First Ones, dreadlords, and a constellar is probably quite telling. Why would the Titans consider undeath worth studying if they perceived the pinnacle of undeath as being beneath the Keepers/Watchers whom they can mass produce?
    How Titans were incorrect? I think they were very correct from their point of view and what they knew.
    Behold my new creation!


  6. #326
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    "Necromancy is the art of reanimating unliving flesh." literally means that everytime something gets brought back to life, it's considered 'necromancy'.

    To then retcon 'necromantic' as a type of magic from the lore by turning it into a tautology ('necromancy is necromancy') is both pretentious and carelessly destroying lore without any clear reason.
    Like i said in a previous post, perhaps its better to separate Necromantic (Death magic) from Necromancy (school of magic). This doesn't destroy any lore and makes the older cosmology maps still relevant with what is said ingame now.

  7. #327
    I am Murloc! A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Where is that ever specified though. If someone is dead resurrecting them is reanimating unliving flesh. It just then becomes living again.
    If someone is ressurected the unliving flesh becomes living flesh. So it's... animated living flesh, which is a perfectly regular phenomenom. In a ressurection there's zero animation of unliving flesh. An undead moves besides being dead - that's the fucked up magic part.

    Sin'dane straight out says "animating unliving flesh" because unliving is different than living. She could've said "animate flesh" but she didn't.

    Words have meanings.

  8. #328
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    They don't need to.
    They have to if you want to claim that the dreadlords spread the use of necromancy to the mortal realm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post

    Sin'dane straight out says "animating unliving flesh" because unliving is different than living. She could've said "animate flesh" but she didn't.

    Words have meanings.
    There is an entirely different problem with Sin'danes little statement, since flesh does not really exist in the shadowlands, necromancy should be different in the realm of the living, since the material they manipulate is fundamentally different, one is a soul and anima, the other is dead flesh.

  10. #330
    I am Murloc! A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    since flesh does not really exist in the shadowlands
    Flesh definitely exists in the Shadowlands.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Flesh definitely exists in the Shadowlands.
    Almost all of it is anima and souls, take Kyrian for example they are not beings of flesh,yet the necrolords still gather their corpses and use them. Using the same brand of necromancy for those in the plane of the living and those in the shadowlands just doesn't make sense.

  12. #332
    So Druids and Shamans are necromancers too? Or Necromancy should only entail rising and control?

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I wonder what Arcane magic necromancy would look like...


    EDIT: Just thought of something... perhaps Arcane magic does not need to use necromancy to reanimate living flesh. Instead, just turn back time before the individual's death.
    Just read the book in Wrath's dalaran. Arcane necromancy is old news.

  14. #334
    I am Murloc! A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Almost all of it is anima and souls
    Yes, but it's still flesh. It bleeds, has muscles, nerves, fat, etc. For all intents and purposes it behaves like regular flesh. "It's anima!" potentially, or the Anima creates the flesh. In both case, the result is flesh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garretdejiko View Post
    So Druids and Shamans are necromancers too? Or Necromancy should only entail rising and control?
    Necromancy entails animating unliving flesh. If the flesh becomes living like it was, it obviously stops being necromancy.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Yes, but it's still flesh. It bleeds, has muscles, nerves, fat, etc. For all intents and purposes it behaves like regular flesh. "It's anima!" potentially, or the Anima creates the flesh. In both case, the result is flesh.
    It isn't, Kyrians travel to the plane of the living, with their "flesh" and pretty much don't exist there, so the base matter is entirely different. So how is the supposedly exact method supposed to work on things, which are so fundamentally different?

  16. #336
    I am Murloc! A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It isn't
    Alright then dude, it isn't flesh. It's fairy powder.

  17. #337
    Maldraxus and necromancy is the real issue due to the way the shadowlands are said to work.

    Everyone losing their minds over different types of magic having necromancy should be more mad at Chronicle for trying to shoehorn the distinct magic sources onto a universe thats been mixing magic since forever. Necromancy before doing by those who practice other magic types is far from new.

    Its the same issue with Arcane being made a power of 'order' but its shown to be (and described to be in older sources) very chaotic on its own.

  18. #338
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    How Titans were incorrect? I think they were very correct from their point of view and what they knew.
    Them being correct from their point of view doesn't really matter, everyone is correct from their point of view. Objectively, in this case, the Titans were wrong. In both the cosmological chart and in their written accounts of the cosmic forces they tightly couple "types" of magic (i.e.: fel, nature, necromancy) with their respective cosmic force (i.e.: disorder, life, death). We know this is no longer canon in at least respect to necromancy, and it is possible that this may also be the case for other types of magic. The cosmological chart in Grimoire of the Shadowlands even explicitly removes all association between magic and its source.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post

    Its the same issue with Arcane being made a power of 'order' but its shown to be (and described to be in older sources) very chaotic on its own.
    Arcane is an entire can of worms on its own even back then, it was said to be chaotic corrupting and pretty much bad all around, but at the same time it was said to be nurturing and sustaining lush life on the world and granting immortality.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They have to if you want to claim that the dreadlords spread the use of necromancy to the mortal realm.
    What? Did you get nothing of what i said?
    The dreadlords have potentially spread the influence of necromancy to the other cosmic forces.
    Mortals draw on these cosmic forces.

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