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  1. #101
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    I don't remember arcane necromancy but surely it must exist
    Well I imagine if Arcane can be used to animate constructs, then at some point it may also be usable to animate dead bodies.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    That's pretty much it, it's always bee this way people just glossed over it and didn't pay attention.
    It's really just a categorisation issue. Yes, technically these are different forms of magic reanimating flesh. And well researched examples indeed. But to me, I never considered the non-death reanimations actual 'necromancy', even though that's indeed what they are in the most literal sense. 'Death necromancy' always was a tautology to me.

    For instance that overgrown orc doesn't feel like reanimated flesh at all, but rather a living being that is possessed by some parasite or something. Keeping its bodily functions, just losing its autonomy.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-06-02 at 05:03 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    It's really just a categorisation issue. Yes, technically these are different forms of magic reanimating flesh. And well researched examples indeed. But to me, I never considered the non-death reanimations actual 'necromancy', even though that's indeed what they are in the most literal sense. 'Death necromancy' always was a tautology to me.
    That's because the cosmic forces were added on 20 years after the franchise started and then had to be applied retroactively to a whole lot of phenomena that weren't made with them in mind. People here joke about 'arcane necromancy', as if necromancy being arcane wasn't so basic a kind of info that there was a book about it in Dalaran.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  4. #104
    All cosmic powers can do things like teleportation/portal creation, healing, summoning (various creatures) and necromancy. This does not mean that the differences between them are erased. If you want to kill an enemy with a meteor you still need Fel and if you want to kill him with vines and roots you still need Life.


    It's amazing that in 2022 someone is still surprised by such things.

  5. #105
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    The thing that stands out to me about it being strange is, on the Cosmology chart, we clearly see "Undeath" attached to Death. If Undeath is actually just a free-wheeling state of existence that any force of magic can create, then why is that there? Are they trying to say that the Titans never knew there were other forms of undead, and thus thought it was a purely Death-related thing?

  6. #106
    So, what is the difference between resurrection and necromancy?
    unclench your jaw

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    So, what is the difference between resurrection and necromancy?
    Necromancy raises the undead. Resurrection returns a living being

  8. #108
    I mean, it makes sense to me?

    We've seen lots of different flavors of necromancy before.

    We've seen the dead reanimated by Death, by Fel, by the Void, Anima and by the Light. Even Arcane once, with Meryl Winterstorm/Felstorm. And I think Medivh by his mother.

    If necromancy is just a type of magic that brings back the dead, using an alternative power source than Life to bind a soul to a body, then I am fine with that.
    Last edited by Caerule; 2022-06-02 at 06:04 PM.

  9. #109
    all this seems like they're setting up for 10.x and having every race be any class. they are getting rid of all the boundaries/restrictions.

    "My memory... since when? If everything is a dream, don't wake me." -Cloud Strife, Final Fantasy VII

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's because the cosmic forces were added on 20 years after the franchise started and then had to be applied retroactively to a whole lot of phenomena that weren't made with them in mind. People here joke about 'arcane necromancy', as if necromancy being arcane wasn't so basic a kind of info that there was a book about it in Dalaran.
    Never seen that before. However that book treats 'arcane' as all magic, rather than dealing with 'arcane necromancy' (which sure thing apparently that too exists). It ven calls necromancy 'necromantic magic'. That's how I saw it. Necromancy being a sub-school of magic that relates to death but doesn't quite entirely overlap with it.

    And now that we've got a new cosmic force, the Drust, in the same way a subset of nature magic. It just seems that with this, let's call it clarification, only limited themselves.

    There's a whole field of science that deals with these type of discussions btw, it's fascinating stuff:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_theory

    Quote Originally Posted by TbouncerT View Post
    all this seems like they're setting up for 10.x and having every race be any class. they are getting rid of all the boundaries/restrictions.
    I suspect the same. But it's a mistake. They'll implement forsaken paladins with light-necromancy with no meaningful distinction with classic paladins which implies that paladins have been necromancers all along.

    I think this is what happening but it's ill-advised.

    It's going to be like Tim Minchin's peace anthem for Palestine:

    We don't eat pigs
    You don't eat pigs
    It seems it's been that way forever
    So if you don't eat pigs
    And we don't eat pigs
    Why not, not eat pigs together?
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-06-02 at 06:15 PM.

  11. #111
    This all stems from the chronicles and the six primal powers.

    Power School Damage Heal Res
    Order Arcane Arcane Blast n/a n/a
    Life Nature Wrath Regrowth Rebirth
    Light Holy Smite Flash Heal Resurrection
    Disorder Elements Fireball n/a n/a
    Death n/a n/a n/a n/a
    Shadow Shadow Death Coil Death Coil Raise Ally

    This is based on playable class abilities. There's a real problem reconciling that Death/Undead and Shadow/Void are two separate cosmic powers.

    When it comes to the in game schools of magic we only have: Arcane, Fire, Frost, Holy, Nature, Physical and Shadow.
    Arcane is Order. Fire and Frost is Disorder/Chaos. Holy is Light. Nature is Life. Shadow is Shadow/Void.

    Another issue is that the elements: fire, water, earth, and air are all supposed to be chaotic, but shaman abilities like earth shock and wind shear are assigned to the Nature school.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The thing that stands out to me about it being strange is, on the Cosmology chart, we clearly see "Undeath" attached to Death. If Undeath is actually just a free-wheeling state of existence that any force of magic can create, then why is that there? Are they trying to say that the Titans never knew there were other forms of undead, and thus thought it was a purely Death-related thing?
    very likely thing there are not many examples of other cosmic forces creating undead

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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    So, what is the difference between resurrection and necromancy?
    your body is dead

  13. #113
    Warchief Progenitor Aquarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    So, what is the difference between resurrection and necromancy?
    Necromancers don't return the dead to life, the create zombies/skeletons etc. and bind unwilling souls to servitude. Resurrection performed by a priest or light magic user heals the wounds that caused death, and returns the soul to the body. I think Blizzard messed things up as always and now we waste energy on this whole thing.

  14. #114
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I know that they aren't Forsaken, I've spent hundreds of posts on this forum arguing with people telling me Judkins is more representative of the Forsaken than Sylvanas. As I said in my post, the in-story point of the meeting is the validation Calia is after. She can hypothetically bridge the gap. But it's a false comparison because the way she was raised is fundamentally different from theirs to a degree where she physically isn't the same and has none of the same drawbacks. It's not only that she's socially and historically away from them and ran away from responsibility, all things the quests finally, after 5 years bother to acknowledge, it's that she's inherently different and that this should inform their relationship going forward. Calia doesn't have the drawbacks of undeath, but she does have all the positives and she isn't pained by the Light but can use it freely. Sweeping this under the rug would be a failure of writing and jury's still out on whether they intend to return to this plot point or not. I remain firmly convinced that this was a sop to the Forsaken playerbase and she'll be the face going forward, but provided the pressure is up, like it has been successfully given they basically soft-retconned both Shadows Rising and the Calia quest of BFA with this storyline, the chance is higher that they address it. Pretending it's a peripheral concern doesn't cut it.
    Funnily, I'd say Sylvanas is about as far removed from the rank-and-file Forsaken as Calia is, so that's not the best comparison for the point I believe you were trying to make. The "false comparison" you refer to is more or less the point of the story, though; Calia's initial concern is that she's fundamentally different from the Forsaken she seeks to join, but Sin'dane removes that contention and in so doing underlines (which the quest itself then belabors) that it's a cultural gulf and not a physiological one that separates Calia from the Forsaken. We don't really know what drawbacks Calia has comparatively, either; she's not as rotted or cadaverous as most of the Forsaken, but as you've been at pains to establish, neither are Sylvanas or her former cadre of Dark Rangers (all of whom are of the Forsaken). So sure, in terms of appearance she stands out a bit, but she's not inherently different from established precedent. She's also not alone in terms of Forsaken being able to utilize the Light, either.

    With the Forsaken finally settling on a council-style configuration for their leadership, it seems that the idea is to represent the myriad faces of the Forsaken in terms of character focus - not only on Calia as a more altruistic and progressive model but also on figures like Belmont and Faranell who represent the more classic aspects of the Forsaken (e.g. brutal pragmatism, a bit of the maniacal, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    So, what is the difference between resurrection and necromancy?
    Necromancy raises beings into undeath, where the spirit essentially occupies and reanimates what is still a corpse whereas true resurrection actually restores life and vitality, returning you to actual life. It would be the difference between a surgeon using your corpse to make a Frankenstein-type monster, and a surgeon actually stitching up your injuries and returning you to health.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #115
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The thing that stands out to me about it being strange is, on the Cosmology chart, we clearly see "Undeath" attached to Death. If Undeath is actually just a free-wheeling state of existence that any force of magic can create, then why is that there? Are they trying to say that the Titans never knew there were other forms of undead, and thus thought it was a purely Death-related thing?
    Are you asking whether Steve "The Retconner" Danuser has changed Chronicle again?
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  16. #116
    More moral equivalence baked into the magic system of the world. I think I'll pass.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Funnily, I'd say Sylvanas is about as far removed from the rank-and-file Forsaken as Calia is, so that's not the best comparison for the point I believe you were trying to make. The "false comparison" you refer to is more or less the point of the story, though; Calia's initial concern is that she's fundamentally different from the Forsaken she seeks to join, but Sin'dane removes that contention and in so doing underlines (which the quest itself then belabors) that it's a cultural gulf and not a physiological one that separates Calia from the Forsaken. We don't really know what drawbacks Calia has comparatively, either; she's not as rotted or cadaverous as most of the Forsaken, but as you've been at pains to establish, neither are Sylvanas or her former cadre of Dark Rangers (all of whom are of the Forsaken). So sure, in terms of appearance she stands out a bit, but she's not inherently different from established precedent. She's also not alone in terms of Forsaken being able to utilize the Light, either.

    With the Forsaken finally settling on a council-style configuration for their leadership, it seems that the idea is to represent the myriad faces of the Forsaken in terms of character focus - not only on Calia as a more altruistic and progressive model but also on figures like Belmont and Faranell who represent the more classic aspects of the Forsaken (e.g. brutal pragmatism, a bit of the maniacal, etc.)
    Nah, not even close. Sylvanas and the Forsaken share the same disassociative effects of undeath and, for the first generation, the same enslavement by the Scourge. This has been the case for ages, but even the most recent lore gets it across with Sylvanas's identity loss and having to piece together who she is and what she's about being identical to what she helps Nathanos, a completely basic Forsaken, through later on. They not only aren't in the same wheelhouse, not even Faol or Bartholomew are as far apart from Joe Average the Forsaken, historically or physically, from Calia. The preservation of the body of the DRs is what they have in common with Calia, but Calia also doesn't have the physical disassociation. Her soul and body aren't apart, her positive emotions aren't suppressed, her negative ones aren't amplified. The Light doesn't burn her, it works for her, etc. etc. To disregard this would devalue both the Light and them. I wouldn't put it past Blizzard by any stretch, given they wrote themselves into this spot in the first place, but these are still canonical elements as of the absolute most recent lore and they're pointed out in the very same quest chain. Being able to utilize the Light while it burns you because you feel that you're rotting and there are maggots eating at your decaying body isn't the same as being able to use it consequence-free.

    Blizzard, and in general modern fantasy writing, are deathly scared of the ontological. In the process they handicap themselves. Addressing that Calia is materially different from all other undead and emphasizing she's a porcelain doll with all the benefits and none of the weaknesses gives you more room to tell stories now that you've introduced it rather than less. It's a gap she can never cross culturally, she'll always stand apart from those she's close to and at the same it gives you room for a core part of the Forsaken, which is leader worship. She's a miracle of the Light and people who aren't blessed like she is imitating her feeds into classic Forsaken tropes of the subordinates being more fanatical than the leader and fills the void that is left when the DRs became their current neutered selves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Never seen that before. However that book treats 'arcane' as all magic, rather than dealing with 'arcane necromancy' (which sure thing apparently that too exists). It ven calls necromancy 'necromantic magic'. That's how I saw it. Necromancy being a sub-school of magic that relates to death but doesn't quite entirely overlap with it.

    And now that we've got a new cosmic force, the Drust, in the same way a subset of nature magic. It just seems that with this, let's call it clarification, only limited themselves.
    When it says Arcane it means Arcane. Arcane at the time of writing wasn't distinct from Fel, much like fel had an overlap with shamanism because they both covered the Nether. The lore's shifted since then, but there's a reason the premier necromancer was someone from the Council of Six or why elves could smoothly pivot from arcane to demonic magic. They were just degrees of the same thing. A lot of this was changed drastically in Chronicle and then changed even more when they decided Light undead were a thing or when they realized that there were 0 undead associated with Death except possibly Galakrond and had the SL retcons to what the Scourge were. Multiple forms of magic being able to interact with the dead has been the norm for basically the entire game. Up to this point, they've all been basically distinct. Calia obviously isn't the same as Joe Blow the zombie.

    Where it concerns the Drust, for the sake of not veering too far off-topic I am profoundly assmad that because the Horde story in BFA was about dismantling everything about the Horde the massive open goal that was trying to recruit a necromantic but also shamanic tribal people with a historical grievance with the Alliance and a unique aesthetic into the Horde never came up.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-06-02 at 07:00 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  18. #118
    Mar'grave Sindane is the true prophet

  19. #119
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Even if that's the case (and I'm not buying it) then that still raises the question why it was handled in such a rushed way. Figuring out that necromancy can be tapped through different forms of magic would be such a cool plot twist in a major quest.
    But this has already happened several times in the past. The botani from Gorgrond animated dead orcs with nature magic. The void elves animated the bones of the dead using void magic. Calia has been brought back with the powers of the Light, and I'm pretty sure there's other examples...
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  20. #120
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    The amount of people here who have never played D&D is sad.


    necromancy is a genre of magic, spells that manipulate and alter flesh or soul, that defy death itself, these do not always need to be death magic, but ressurecting someone from the dead in ANY way, is necromancy, death magic or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But this has already happened several times in the past. The botani from Gorgrond animated dead orcs with nature magic. The void elves animated the bones of the dead using void magic. Calia has been brought back with the powers of the Light, and I'm pretty sure there's other examples...
    Demons like mannoroth brought back from the dead as a giant walking skeleton, and then abomination with fel magic.
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