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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    You realize that Night Elf souls being connected with their forests has been a thing since...like...forever, right? What do you think wisps are? It makes sense that they'd regain that connection after Teldrassil was lost by helping grow a new world tree. Instead of just hanging out in Ardenweald to let their kin fend for themselves.



    They and the Gilneans drove the Forsaken from elven lands when the Alliance largely abandoned them to pursue its own ends during BfA...



    But it's cute that you think the writers are beholden to the whims of people such as yourself who clearly never bothered to pay attention to the story in the first place.
    They won back Darkshore… which was reduced to an uninhabitable plagued ruin. Even animals fled from it, only leaving some scavengers and what not.

    While Ashenvale, their main home after Hyjal is under attack still.

    Also, i just pointed out how “whims” of particular group of players just somehow… materialise into the game. Magic, has to be.

    Or devs do listen but ignore fans they dont like? Hmmm.

  2. #22
    It's an inherent problem of having a giant world for a product while selling it for it's character driven story. It inevitably forces the player into participating in jarring values that they don't subscribe to.

    The solution isn't 'make a better story'. The solution is to stop putting so much emphasis on this overarching soap opera and let the world do the storytelling.

  3. #23
    NE fans cant be mad at NE acting lawful good, when they chose to play the lawful good faction ...

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post

    Also, i just pointed out how “whims” of particular group of players just somehow… materialise into the game. Magic, has to be.
    Almost like those players were just pointing out basic shit that was already implied, if not outright stated, to begin with. Bravo.

    Calia was never going to be instantly enshrined as the undisputed ruler of the Forsaken. Anyone who believed otherwise "isn't stupid, they are malicious." Her whole thing in the few instances we actually see/interact with her has been how she's unsure of her place, and just wants to help those in a similar situation.


    And the elves have been fighting Horde incursions in Ashenvale since literally day one of WoW. Suddenly it's a problem for you now? lol

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by lagiacrux View Post
    NE fans cant be mad at NE acting lawful good, when they chose to play the lawful good faction ...
    NE and Alliance were not originally sold as “lawful good”. Lawful but not that “good”. Also even “lawful good” is not THAT dumb. Its more of a “lawful stupid”.

    Not to mention that night elves were never “hippie elves”. Not fucken once in their lore, they like nature but they kill to keep it growing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Almost like those players were just pointing out basic shit that was already implied, if not outright stated, to begin with. Bravo.

    Calia was never going to be instantly accepted as the undisputed ruler of the Forsaken. Her whole thing in the few instances we actually see/interact with her has been how she's unsure of her place, and just wants to help those in a similar situation.


    And the elves have been fighting Horde incursions in Ashenvale since literally day one of WoW. Suddenly it's a problem for you now? lol
    Because they gave up Azshara in exchange for Horde leaving Ashenvale for good? And also because the Fourth War is over now and Horde supposed to , idk, fuck off to Orgrimmar since “it was all Sylvanas and not us”?

    Also without Teldrassil they have nowhere else to go, leaving only Ashenvale since Hyjal is neutral zone for druids.

  6. #26
    Of course they're fucking malicious. They have been since day one.

    Even if you weren't one of their female employees experiencing it first hand, all you have to do is look at literally any of their April Fool's day posts. They've been taunting and hurling insults at their consumer base every single year, with (an ever dwindling) number of their sycophants lauding how "hilarious" they were and trying to convince everyone else it wasn't Blizzard just being the passive aggressive cunts they are.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chadow View Post
    Vengeance IS bad and is a really good opinion to pass on to future generations.

    I personaly was put in hell IRL for 5 years because of "revenge" and i learned my lesson the hard way.

    I still struggle today with that little demon inside me telling to go have revenge (aka self righteous justice)...and is a bullshit demon to fight.

    REVENGE = BAD
    Sorry. Sucks for you. Really.

    But this is NOT the real world. It is a game. Where we commit basically genocide everyday...

    Out entire point in this game and every aspect of it is to kill things. Even profession. Transmogs. Everything requires killing, killing and even more killing.
    The whole world of azeroth is in a constant state of war and apocalypse. Basically EVERYONE is a racist even the most good characters.
    Revenge fits in rather nicely and at some point, in that case the nightelves, doing nothing is worse. They literally just nearly got wiped out. And did nothing but a few things in darkshore.
    Blizz basically writes the nightleves as the ultimate Pushovers. Ever useless. Ever weak. Even Tyrande, getting incredible power... does nothign with it and nearly dies. Malfurion... sleeps probably or something.
    Now they live in tents in SW and a few sit around in Hyjal without houses.

    I really don't know why blitt gives Nightelves that much screentime because they are not making them intersting anymore in any way.... just frustrating. Nightelves are basicaly ONLY tyrande anymore with pinch of shandris. Malfurion got relegated as a d-Tier protagonist doing nothing despite being one of the most powerful beings on this planet....

  8. #28
    The Forsaken were at rock bottom prior, with every relevant character excised and Calia having taken over as their main speaker off-screen in a book, featuring no times at all in SL and featuring only through new characters that were made to dismantle the race and demonize their racial leader of fifteen years in BFA. This after their entire backstory got arbitrarily changed in a crappy tie-in book so that they could have Calia installed. They were already members of the Unifaction, their core cut out so they could join an Alliance-approved Anduin clone and be part of world peace. World peace and total removal of human conflict are the endgame and the Forsaken were already part of that.

    The Calia quest is 'good', because it gets to that point in a more organic way than anything before it, while using Forsaken characters, themes and imagery and putting Calia while still obviously bound to be the face of the faction, as a more subordinate role to an identity that still has many of its traits over it. It is able to do so because the Forsaken destruction was complete both internally and externally. Internally, they're now better off than they were because there's at least some of their identity back and the circumstances of Calia are gone. Externally, nothing is given except apparently a throwaway line about Gilneas, and their relations with both the Horde and Alliance still aren't covered because to do so sensibly would require conflict and conflict is what Blizzard is unwilling to do.

    By comparison, the Night Elves are internally functional on a base level. Their entire cast is alive, their reasoning in wanting to reclaim their grounds, oppose the treaty, fight the Horde etc. and their return to a characterization as close to WC3 as it's ever been in 8.1 are all popular among their fanbase and easy to implement. Blizzard know this and push it, but while the Forsaken need internal correction after they've been gutted outright, for this Night Elf story to work they need external validation which is much harder to slot into their world peace simulator. For the Night Elf identity to work they need to do something, not just chat - they need to not just kill Nathanos, but seize back territory and have quests where they fight and kill Horde. They need to not just plant trees and frolic around in the woods while punishing Sylvanas, but assert themselves relative to the Alliance as a separate, hawkish block. And all this needs to be portrayed positively and reasonably.

    Blizzard can't do this and still have their world peace simulator hence why Tyrande's been limpwristed in every appearance from 8.1 onwards. They are aware of this internal identity and wish, and so Tyrande and the night elves constantly talk a big game as do other characters about how mad and strong they are, but they can't validate their identity externally relative to other powers because if they did they'd have to realize that their entire direction, drive towards homogenization and insufferable moralizing are cancerous. And that they can't do. That's why despite having far more material, far more screentime and a fanbase that goes on and on about the tree even more than the game itself does, the Night Elves got a worse shake than the Forsaken when it comes to their 'fixing' quests and always will be. Because what the Night Elves need isn't a strong identity or cast - they have those, they also don't need yet another fucking tree or reprise of Teldrassil, what they need is to be in a game that realizes that it's about war.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-06-02 at 11:18 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Calia was never going to be instantly enshrined as the undisputed ruler of the Forsaken.
    I hope she'll never be. Not because I don't like her, but purely because disputed leaders are more interesting than undisputed leaders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    world peace simulator.
    I hate how well this description works lmao.

  10. #30
    tyrande has not done anything successfully since they started using her in stories.

    she just had failure after failure after failure.

    its almost like team rocket, they show up on screen and you just wonder how will they screw up this time.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Bruh... They literally gave her keys to the kingdom for no reason at all. It does not matter if it's 1/4 or not. "Deeply distrustful" - "Gets a ruling position in the very shortlist Forsaken council", pick one.

    She interacted with Forsaken like whole bloody 3 times before that, omegalul and her chief achievement is being ganked by Sylv personally.

    That's like juicy meme here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And for the record - I don't mind Calia one bit. I think she's a good addition to Forsaken to maybe put them on the less edgelord and more nation building path.

    But it's hilarious to think that this outsider that practically did little to nothing for Forsaken is suddenly given such honors. If we'd go the actual proper way to do it - she'd get the spot an expansion down the road the least after she'd prove herself an asset to the people. A journey not unlike one Anduin went through for many years.
    ya, one of Calia's main problems is how hard Danuser is pushing her into things... she could work if given much more time for development and integration with the Forsaken, learning about the Forsaken/undeath/Horde and actually interacting with some Forskaen. Use the time to actually show her doing something to prove herself.

    But instead one quest line where she basically does nothing and proves nothing, and tee hee she's part of the leadership -_-

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Or at least more malicious than stupid.

    Lately thanks to some forum posters (local and official) i noticed some rather… “interesting” plot developments.

    Since i no longer play myself, i have to rely on youtube and forums for lore info, and forsaken fans (Benedikt from US forums and others) were actually optimistic about Lordaeron plot. Calia’s involvement was toned down and played in such a way that she appeared to be one begging for acceptance while basically being schooled by “older” forsaken, distrusted and having to prove her worth every step of the way.

    Far better outcome then “hail the queen” scenario.

    Forsaken aslo had their “dark” themes reaffirmed, and given “writers assurance” that those will remain intact and not be discarded even though Sylvanas is gone.

    And those all are good, on point changes to the plot, made with understanding of the playerbase needs and etc. So Blizz has listened to the forsaken fans “collective unconscious” on forums, read the room, made the plot that moved around every rough edge and produced a compelling scenario that both reinforced race’s core aspects while adding new angle without altering the Forsaken as a whole.

    So they are ABLE to do so. They HAVE what it takes to listen, adjust and write smart.



    Meanwhile Night elves are force fed “vengeance is bad, forgiffness goot” bullshit, their souls are mulched into a seed… that Tyrande will take to Dragon Isles and gods forbid her plant it there! Or sacrifice it “for greater good”.

    None of their racial problems were addressed, from impotent military, to horrible “resisting evil is wrong” angle, and “victims shouldnt seek justice”…

    Essentially Blizz just doubled down on all the WRONG choices they made in BfA and SL, did not listen to players AT ALL and kept forcing this slop down our throat.

    As a cherry on too worgen and Alliance apparently couldnt retake Gilneas and forsaken will “maybe” give it back. One day. Perhaps. If their new Desolate Council is willing. Fucken incredible.

    And thats the same team of writers.

    By now we can FINALLY conclude that their mistakes come from MALICE not INEPTITUDE. They can write a good story even with bad “premise” and set the stage so even worst “actors” come in naturally and not cause havoc on the plot. But they DONT WANT TO when it comes to Alliance.
    This. So much this.
    It is incredible how badly they handle all of this from an alliance PoV.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Enter Name Here View Post
    i don't believe it will be planted on the dragon isles. during the quest an npc, i dont remember who, said they know a place and it's been far too long. so maybe a place where a world tree stood once before?
    The NPC who says they know a place, and its been far too long, is Ysera. Without knowing DF is the next xpac, you maybe could have made the connection that she was referring the the Dragon Isles. Knowing that DF is the next xpac, and that it was Ysera who said that line, its very reasonable for someone to assume that she is talking about the Dragon Isles.

    Ysera also mentions that with Elunes blessing she might one day soar above the skies of Azeroth once more, after she has chilled in Ardenweald for a few patches.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post

    As a cherry on too worgen and Alliance apparently couldnt retake Gilneas and forsaken will “maybe” give it back. One day. Perhaps. If their new Desolate Council is willing. Fucken incredible.
    NGL when i first heard that i was like, oh the horde will consider giving us Gilneas back, if they feel like it, wtaf?. Later on realizing what Calia meant was that she would try and convince the Desolate Council to use their new Plague Eaters to cleanse Gilneas to make it habitable again. Without the new Plague Eaters it would be impossible to resettle Gilneas.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    ya, one of Calia's main problems is how hard Danuser is pushing her into things... she could work if given much more time for development and integration with the Forsaken, learning about the Forsaken/undeath/Horde and actually interacting with some Forskaen. Use the time to actually show her doing something to prove herself.

    But instead one quest line where she basically does nothing and proves nothing, and tee hee she's part of the leadership -_-
    Practically reminds me of Idiocracy, where that completely average and unremarkable guy became a high ranking minister that would fix everything, just because everyone else is a complete dumbass.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Practically reminds me of Idiocracy, where that completely average and unremarkable guy became a high ranking minister that would fix everything, just because everyone else is a complete dumbass.
    Strange to hear this brought up when monarchies are a thing... People put in charge solely because of which lady they fell out of as a baby.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Forsaken were at rock bottom prior, with every relevant character excised and Calia having taken over as their main speaker off-screen in a book, featuring no times at all in SL and featuring only through new characters that were made to dismantle the race and demonize their racial leader of fifteen years in BFA. This after their entire backstory got arbitrarily changed in a crappy tie-in book so that they could have Calia installed. They were already members of the Unifaction, their core cut out so they could join an Alliance-approved Anduin clone and be part of world peace. World peace and total removal of human conflict are the endgame and the Forsaken were already part of that.

    The Calia quest is 'good', because it gets to that point in a more organic way than anything before it, while using Forsaken characters, themes and imagery and putting Calia while still obviously bound to be the face of the faction, as a more subordinate role to an identity that still has many of its traits over it. It is able to do so because the Forsaken destruction was complete both internally and externally. Internally, they're now better off than they were because there's at least some of their identity back and the circumstances of Calia are gone. Externally, nothing is given except apparently a throwaway line about Gilneas, and their relations with both the Horde and Alliance still aren't covered because to do so sensibly would require conflict and conflict is what Blizzard is unwilling to do.

    By comparison, the Night Elves are internally functional on a base level. Their entire cast is alive, their reasoning in wanting to reclaim their grounds, oppose the treaty, fight the Horde etc. and their return to a characterization as close to WC3 as it's ever been in 8.1 are all popular among their fanbase and easy to implement. Blizzard know this and push it, but while the Forsaken need internal correction after they've been gutted outright, for this Night Elf story to work they need external validation which is much harder to slot into their world peace simulator. For the Night Elf identity to work they need to do something, not just chat - they need to not just kill Nathanos, but seize back territory and have quests where they fight and kill Horde. They need to not just plant trees and frolic around in the woods while punishing Sylvanas, but assert themselves relative to the Alliance as a separate, hawkish block. And all this needs to be portrayed positively and reasonably.

    Blizzard can't do this and still have their world peace simulator hence why Tyrande's been limpwristed in every appearance from 8.1 onwards. They are aware of this internal identity and wish, and so Tyrande and the night elves constantly talk a big game as do other characters about how mad and strong they are, but they can't validate their identity externally relative to other powers because if they did they'd have to realize that their entire direction, drive towards homogenization and insufferable moralizing are cancerous. And that they can't do. That's why despite having far more material, far more screentime and a fanbase that goes on and on about the tree even more than the game itself does, the Night Elves got a worse shake than the Forsaken when it comes to their 'fixing' quests and always will be. Because what the Night Elves need isn't a strong identity or cast - they have those, they also don't need yet another fucking tree or reprise of Teldrassil, what they need is to be in a game that realizes that it's about war.
    I once had an idea about how you can validate the Alliance and night elves specifically without having them fight the Horde directly.

    Just have them fight a force that severely beaten the Horde and beat that force.

    Its a rough concept but for example - have Yrel pop out of huge Light portal. She lands her ship in Stormwind and basically goes on "Hey hey, nice to see you all, long time no see!" , then kisses her goodbyes and says that she will be off to Kalimdor, doing Light's work, have fun meantime and sit tight.

    Then she appears on Kalimdor and unleashes hell (or very angry heaven) on the Horde, basically rolling them with endless waves of Light zealots, scorching earth like we saw in Revendreth, brainwashing orcs and so on.

    Meanwhile EK Alliance sits on their ass, and when Calia or someone else sends them a message of "Yrel gone nuts and scorches Kalimdor" Turalyon basically just scoffs "Not my problem, i have a whole Alliance to manage." and tosses it into the bin.

    Meanwhile on Kalimdor Yrel fanatics would come into conflict with night elves, over "moon worship heresy", where we at last see Elune being powerful and somewhat competent, protecting night elves from "light scorcher" tactics since , you know, moon can eclipse sun and all that symbolism.

    Horde also puts up a fight, but they cant beat Yrel's army which basically counters most of what they got via blasting Elements into submission with concentrated Light and having no qualms about throwing forces into a meatgrinder if it means depriving Horde of supplies and etc. Play that "Horde is always low on resources" angle as a hindrance FOR ONCE.

    Then Tyrande goes to EK, slams Turalyon face into proof of Yrel's madness, maybe show him how she uses Light to brainwash Alliance people on Kalimdor into slaves, or her burning down swathes of land and so on.

    Turalyon rallies the Alliance, confronts Yrel and with that second front Horde and Alliance overcome her, but it would be clear that if Turalyon simply CHOSE to sit on his hands, and if night elves were not holding back the Light forces Kalimdor would have ended up looking like a huge glass platter with extra Light all over it.

    As Yrel gets her ass kicked, we realize that her sudden psycho outburst was due to Light "outside" of Azeroth fighting the Void and DEMANDING more worlds of Light to combat growing Void presence, so she went to Azeroth trying to stave off the Void by sacrificing one powerful world to the Light.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Strange to hear this brought up when monarchies are a thing... People put in charge solely because of which lady they fell out of as a baby.
    While that's true, the Forsaken aren't too keen on the monarchy Calia represents for obvious reasons.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    You realize that Night Elf souls being connected with their forests has been a thing since...like...forever, right? What do you think wisps are? It makes sense that they'd regain that connection after Teldrassil was lost by helping grow a new world tree. Instead of just hanging out in Ardenweald to let their kin fend for themselves.
    Soooo it is okey to commit genocide if then your soul get culturally apropriate rest? Why NE dont commit mass suicides if all is dandy there

  19. #39
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