Thread: To Be Forsaken

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    That simply cannot work at this point. Sylvannas is gone and there is a new Council who wants to make changes for the better. It's best you accept it.

    Even Sylvannas herself changed.
    belmont is literally the forsaken fanbase (and evidently the writers) that want remain forsaken, faranell is "i want to continue to be an edgy war criminal" and velonara "i dont know what to do". the other 2 are literally undeads not even forsaken until short time ago and then forced in without any reason. rotfl
    and i have nothing to accept, i stopped to play and im here just to complain the decadence of my, now ex, beloved forsakens. probably my most favorite rp ever.... thats all
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  2. #42
    It doesn't matter what you think. At this point the Forsaken are without a city, without Valkyrs and without weapons. Sylvannas took everything to the Maw. What you want cannot simply happen because they don't have the resources, the manpower or the political stature to do what you want. It wouldn't even make sense now and it wouldn't even pass in the new Horde Council not to mention the new Desolate Council who are changing the faction.

    But you know what? Let me not stop you. Go to Blizzard and complain. Ask them to make the Forsaken as you want. Make them on a mission to kill all the living. Let's see how it plays out and the reaction it will cause for most of the player base who are tired of this BS. This time there is no Anduin on the throne.
    Last edited by Darth-Piekus; 2022-06-03 at 10:07 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's true, they've had to switch approaches, but much like the loyalist option, it's all a ruse to progress the Unifaction. The thing with the Forsaken is that they were already dead, so even this is a minor improvement. When the time is right they'll drop the mask and put her on the chair formally and have her give an hour long fully rendered speech on how Lordaeron is for everyone, not just living and dead but the newly civilized gnolls and centaurs from the new expansion.
    sure - i just don't see that they were that dead. they will not get its' sweet embrace, just pulling out a Sylvanas' original death with the entire race.
    don't think they'll go with conventional monarchy with Calia - no, Belmont will vote for welcoming gnolls and centaur in.

    btw loyalist option is a special kind of insult in light of 9.2. they're telling you that you went this way not because you supported your head of state and military, but because you think that Sylvanas personally is a total qween who should slay (figuratively). it's like a bait and switch lmao.

    It's a shame that wasn't pertinent when they were going for the Keep in the first place or they were fighting for it but only throwaway lines by fodder years down the line. Could you imagine if competing for Lordaeron was the main gist of the Forsaken-Human conflict for fifteen years? Then it sure would be a shame for it to be shelved so we can cut out both undead and humans out of it entirely and we make it about Sylvanas sneering oneliners while Sadfang whines about a fucking tree, haha.
    arguably it all hinges on the narrative shift from cultures to characters around WotLK, as if people were hiveminds. keep thinking that original continents loading screens moving away from cool-looking nameless characters on them to faction leaders was a reflection of it.

    every time i come across a "dumb tree", i get reminded of this soviet poster. the text roughly translates to "got drunk, was swearing, broke a sapling - ashamed to look people in the eye. shame!". (imagining Saurfang in place of that guy is hilarious though)
    it's irrelevant that it was a tree, it was a place i had positive memories of, which were replaced with gore from Elegy.
    We can only hope. The last time Blizzard had the Alliance have grounds to initiate a conflict for Lordaeron it was like someone showed the sign of the cross to a demon and we ended up with the war motive being Sylvanas running up an astral kill count to satisfy the devil on a different continent all to avoid anyone in the Alliance having the slightest bit of proactivity or any meat to their ideas.
    kek, hope. but it's basically a given at this point. although doubt that it will be Alliance as a whole - just Turalyon's volunteers and Army of the Light. on the contrary, Alliance as represented by Anduin will condemn it. maybe Genn will even sacrifice himself to save some Forsaken.

    The War Table stuff was non-canon from the word go since it was made by interns checking Cata-era wowhead overviews of the zones, hence why people were inexplicably alive and why in the tables Darkshore and Ashenvale are contested whereas in 8.1 Tyrande talks about how they are totally lost and she's the first one making progress on it. It's the same with the Forsaken. On the tables, they exist, in the Horde war campaign, Faranell and Belmont appear with 5 lines total in the Warfront on Kalimdor completely away from anything any Forsaken ever cared about
    disagree that one or several inconsistencies can decanonize the entire source of information. besides, it's only common sense that they would remain in Lordaeron - as nothing tells us otherwise (such as night elves explicitly removed from Ashenvale in BfA novellas)
    always thought of the Forsaken as a rather fluid if not deracinated people. a certain rejection of their living identities was an existing cultural trait, therefore i don't see a particularly strong argument against them doing some research in Darkshore, far from home.

    The same function sparing Malfurion had when Sadfang and Sylvanas inexplicably leave him alive.
    difference is that wc3 cast has a thicker plot armor.
    The last time we've killed an Alliance character who went hostile was Benedictus ten years ago.
    who?..
    jokes aside, never thought that the dude could be considered an established character. he had like, two, three quests? Amber Kearnen or Delaryn had more quests, screentime and lines.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    I'm with Belmont and IC I don't trust her to lead and don't like it.

    OOC? meh, see what they do.
    I think this is about where I'm at. Been invested in the Forsaken story for so long its hard to separate me and like, in-game me, but I agree with you on both.

  5. #45
    As someone who mained forsaken for 15 years. I don't want a leader ( or a character ) who is trying to change what we are.

    "Our time will come." "Embrace the shadow." "Beware the Living." I grew up with these quotes.

    It is really hard to find someone to replace Sylvanas. Noone can understand the suffering of the Forsaken better than her. And that is what make us Forsaken.

    I don't want her to be a bridge between Humans and Forsaken. It might sound evil but don't want Forsaken to find peace. But if they are going to use her to create conflict inside of Forsaken and make Lilian kill her in the end I can welcome her to her own kingdom.

  6. #46
    The whole problem is that the Forsaken were a narrative dead end. It's established that they are completely miserable and literally can barely even feel positive emotions. They're setup as only wanting revenge on Arthas, and when ICC was cleared, they quite literally had no further purpose. If not for being a playable race, they would have likely been allowed to die off, like we had been told they longed for. Instead, we got ham-fisted concerns about their future since procreation isn't possible, in a complete reversal to their prior outlook of "what joy is there in this curse" and "slaves to this torment". This flailing around trying to find them a new purpose led to another problem that, while not unique to the Forsaken, has been very pronounced.

    A common criticism here is WoW shifting to focus on the named hero characters rather than the world, and I'd argue no race did that worse than the Forsaken. Even before they lost all purpose in Wrath, they were a Sylvie personality cult, and it only got more pronounced as WoW went along. That's no small part of why people are rejecting Calia, because they will reject anyone but the Lich Queen. It's not the only reason, but it's a major factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    A common criticism here is WoW shifting to focus on the named hero characters rather than the world, and I'd argue no race did that worse than the Forsaken. Even before they lost all purpose in Wrath, they were a Sylvie personality cult, and it only got more pronounced as WoW went along. That's no small part of why people are rejecting Calia, because they will reject anyone but the Lich Queen. It's not the only reason, but it's a major factor.
    I think that's why this questline was so important. No race was more defined by a singular central character quite like the cult of Sylvanas. To then take her out of the picture for the indefinite future, we needed this to establish the surrounding impact on the world around these characters.

    For the future, I'd be curious how human culture will be impacted by Anduin stepping down as king for the time being just as much as I'm curious where Anduin himself will go. I do love "stay a while and listen" bonus dialogues and NPCs in major cities having chitchat about current major lore events, but dedicated storylines like this work really well for major changes that players really need to be there for and not miss (I easily miss about 1/3 of the stay a while and listen dialogues and 1/2 of the city chitchat dialogue even when actively looking for it, thank goodness for wowhead)
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  8. #48
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    6,642
    I mostly liked the questline, as the end-result is what I wished for, a council of characters I had been rooting for. Still, I had some issues with it.

    1. Voss kept talking as if she had long been solidly part of the Forsaken. That's not how it is, she only became part of it in BFA. This is to a degree alleviated by the fact her very existence as undead is because the Forsaken raised her with the intention of adding her to their roster. In that sense she was always welcome to join.

    2. The "necromancy is necromancy" bit from Sin'dane. Since Calia was raised by Light it's felt like her state was fundamentally different to that of the other undead. For one, her body is in great shape. For another, Light doesn't harm her. In that sense I feel there is a relevant difference to her in comparison to other undead. That's why it irked me when they handled this question by essentially having an authority figure declare the whole thing null. Whether or not the nature of Calia's being should matter to her standing among the Forsaken is it's own question, but I would have liked for this issue to get a more respectful treatment. Now it's just handwaved away by appeal to authority.

    3. At one point, near the end, Calia claimed she has suffered as the Forsaken had. Like the necromancy is necromancy -bit, this too tries to brush the perceivable differences under the matress. I'm not sure if it's confirmed the Forsaken remember the time they were feral under the Scourge, but they would know of the atrocities they took part in at least after the fact. Then it was a tough path of survival in a world where their old allies shunned them. And recently, a crushing betrayal by their most revered Dark Lady. Meanwhile Calia was alive and had found a nice place by Faol's side and only recently suffered death and rez.

    EDIT: I forgot Derek. His continuing presence by Calia's side and therefore the Forsaken and therefore the Horde is kind of hard to swallow, considering he still has a family in Jaina, Katherine and Tandred. Imagine if Turalyon's invasion of Lordaeron does happen, it's a difficult position for Calia, but even more so for Derek. Can he (and Calia) be accepted among the Forsaken if they don't also agree to raise their arms against the Alliance to protect the Forsaken? I think Derek should only be there now as a non-aligned individual, as he's currently rehabilitating from the shock of undeath and Calia's support is essential in that. Once he's gotten his shit together he needs to choose where he stands. This current time of peace between factions allows that.

    All in all, I can welcome Calia among the Forsaken, even (somewhat begrudgingly) in the council. But I wish this wasn't the final addressing of the issues around her. This should only be the beginning, with future events further solidifying her acceptance among the Forsaken. And most definitely her position shouldn't be anything greater than a spiritual guide and a council member. For that intention I think her model is too regal.
    Last edited by Zuben; 2022-06-05 at 12:08 PM.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    That said, I think the Calia hatred has been largely nonsense as well. We don't know where the story will go. People are just guessing, and then getting angry at their guess, because what they guess hasn't been earned yet. It's like starting to read the Lord of the Rings, skipping to the end and going "They made Aragorn the King?! He's just a lone ranger! Tolkien is garbage!"

    We don't know what Blizzard's intention with this story is.
    -Is she just a vessel to give the Forsaken a version of the Light that won't harm them, in order to give them the often-requested Forsaken Paladins?
    -Does she have some role to play in an upcoming Light As The Enemy expansion?
    -Will she serve a role like Sylvanas?
    You're saying this as if Blizzard was capable of any subtlety. Danuser may have praised the subversive masterpiece of GoT's last season (which by itself should lead to anyone employed in a creative writing position getting the boot), but they don't actually do subvertion themselves. Look at what players complained about the most in the past few expansions that actually got some response from Blizzard. Things like Illidan becoming the chosen one in Legion, the torching of Teldrassil pigeonholing the Horde to be the villain of an expansion again before BFA's release or Horde players being once again forced to betray the Horde in BFA proper.

    Did Blizzard's solutions actually subvert the expectations compared to what people were expecting in their complaints? Fuck no. Illidan may have failed to become a chandelier-approved chosen one, but he still became the Jailer of Sargeras, bringing salvation to those waiting for him. They tried to bullshit people with "lel, wait and see who does it, there are ShAdEs Of GrEy" in regards to Teldrassil, but when it came to the release of that content it turned out to be Horde just like people expected. And the hastily added loyalist option for Horde players in BfA amounted to doing the same exact thing as the traitors with an "all part of my master plan" from Sylvanas lazily slapped on at the end.

    Once Blizzard is set on a moronic idea that's visible from five galaxies away, they don't let it go no matter how much backlash they face and at most change the cosmetics of it. Which, instead of subverting the thing that people are complaining about, only lampshades the hell out of it. Which is why Calia is quite clearly the focus of this questline, the one other Desolate Council members interact with the most and the one to get a cinematic. She's still being groomed to take the leadership role as was already made very apparent in the books she appeared in, even if Blizzard decided to drag it out instead. Hell, she's already on the Council and even most of the people here liking that in this thread agree that it was unearned and too rushed.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2022-06-08 at 05:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    to change in what? in something that other races do better? thats the entire problem, the forsaken satisfied a niche and they did it very well. now they will be just smelly humans. like we even need another race cannibalized by human potential™?
    You are right. They did satisfy a niche. Problem being that this niche had no business being a player character in this game. With all the shit they pulled they should have been wiped out decades ago. The race only existed because of Sylvanas and it only got away with all the shit they did, because Sylvanas was commanding the teenage-boy fanbase better then even her Forsaken.

    If Calia is now turning them slightly away from being a band of psychopathic zombies, then only because Blizzard finally realized how incredibly unrealistic it is that the race still exists and they needed to give a new reason why the Alliance isn't just purging them once and for all now that the old reason for their existence is gone.

    Of course they did do it in the most stupid and insulting way possible, by forcing Alliance members (NIGHTELVES) to help these evil creatures rebuild their strength, so that the next time they start randomly killing people we can feel even more like idiots. But that is just how Blizzard has resolved to write now. Give the Horde everything they want, slap the Alliance in the face as often and as hard as possible.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Of course they did do it in the most stupid and insulting way possible, by forcing Alliance members (NIGHTELVES) to help these evil creatures rebuild their strength, so that the next time they start randomly killing people we can feel even more like idiots. But that is just how Blizzard has resolved to write now. Give the Horde everything they want, slap the Alliance in the face as often and as hard as possible.
    "Forced" lol

    If you don't want your character to help them, don't do the quest. It's not mandatory on any level.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    "Forced" lol

    If you don't want your character to help them, don't do the quest. It's not mandatory on any level.
    You are hillarious. No one forced me or anyone else to play Shadowlands in its entirety either, I could have waited 3 years for it to be over and play Dragonflight. It won't be mandatory, you know.

    But I suppose since the Horde has retroactively been established as the clear winner of BFA, it is to be expected that they are terrible winners.

  13. #53
    Pandaren Monk Grazrug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,750
    Calia is Not part of the Horde. She needs to go away. Give us Sylvanas back.

  14. #54
    For the love of god Grazrug. Sylvannas is not the Sylvannas you knew anymore. Even if she was back she would be a completely different person. Considering there is now a way to make Souls whole again she would have tried to make the Forsaken whole in terms of Souls as they must have shared the Same Fate and thus changing their whole society.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    For the love of god Grazrug. Sylvannas is not the Sylvannas you knew anymore. Even if she was back she would be a completely different person. Considering there is now a way to make Souls whole again she would have tried to make the Forsaken whole in terms of Souls as they must have shared the Same Fate and thus changing their whole society.
    Indeed.

    The Sylvanas that Forsaken players knew and loved has been erased from existence and replaced by the New Sylvanas.

    The New Sylvanas is a fused being comprised of Good and Evil Sylvanas, but the new Sylvanas obviously despises and hates the crimes committed by her evil fraction, and will try to remove that evil fraction from herself.

    In the past, I would have laughed at anyone insinuating that Sylvanas should return to lead the Horde. But now, it might not be too disadvantageous for us (Us Alliance players of course) to have Calia, Baine, and New Sylvanas (Anduin's best friends) now leading the Horde.

    So many possibilities and choices are now opened to the Alliance...

  16. #56
    Blizzard be like:

    "But what if we made her MORE powerful? More perfect? What if she had wings? What if she was more perfectly beautiful and superduper smart and the most amazingest outfit and had super-duper powers and there was this great calamity that befell the Horde and Calia literally flew in on wings of light and unleashed superlight powers and used her supersmarts to solve every problem ever that no Horde leader could solve because they're not as smart as Calia and all the Horde races just looked at her and thought she was sooooo cool and amazing and perfect and they all clapped and then Calia flew up and smashed right through Thanos' ship and saved everyone on Azeroth ever? Would the Forsaken accept her then?"

    I really do worry that there are people at Blizzard who legitimately think the answer to making the Forsaken/players accept Calia is to make her even more perfect and amazing and powerful... proving they literally do not understand The Forsaken, the game, and the players.
    Last edited by thottstation; 2022-06-13 at 08:33 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by thottstation View Post
    Blizzard be like:

    "But what if we made her MORE powerful? More perfect? What if she had wings? What if she was more perfectly beautiful and superduper smart and the most amazingest outfit and had super-duper powers and there was this great calamity that befell the Horde and Calia literally flew in on wings of light and unleashed superlight powers and used her supersmarts to solve every problem ever that no Horde leader could solve because they're not as smart as Calia and all the Horde races just looked at her and thought she was sooooo cool and amazing and perfect and they all clapped and then Calia flew up and smashed right through Thanos' ship and saved everyone on Azeroth ever? Would the Forsaken accept her then?"

    I really do worry that there are people at Blizzard who legitimately think the answer to making the Forsaken/players accept Calia is to make her even more perfect and amazing and powerful... proving they literally do not understand The Forsaken, the game, and the players.
    What Forsaken players want is irrelevant. Forsaken players won't accept anyone who isn't a psychopath dictator who nukes people like their old leader. Unfortunately, that's not in Calia's personality.

    Even though, if in 11.0 Calia nuked Ironforge, I'm sure Forsaken players would start to like her. Because they """""""""chose the Forsaken to be evil""""""" (but then they get super defensive when you point out that the Horde is, indeed, fundamentally evil).

    In the end, saying "Forsaken players wanted..." doesn't matter. Calia was never going to be popular and you know why? Because she's not a cackling maniac who nukes kingdoms with chemical weapons. Because she is not... evil.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    But now, it might not be too disadvantageous for us (Us Alliance players of course) to have Calia, Baine, and New Sylvanas (Anduin's best friends) now leading the Horde.

    So many possibilities and choices are now opened to the Alliance...
    They got married and they lived happily ever after, THE END of faction war, and two of my favorite characters can name their firstborn Arthas junior.

    So he can be isekaed back to WoW, as forsaken baby ofc. /s
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2022-06-13 at 10:29 AM.

  19. #59
    Actually Varodoc I would say neither Blizzard nor the Forsaken players know how to be Forsaken. When the Forsaken were introduced in Warcraft 3 they were supposed to be something different from the Scourge. Something better than the Scourge. Instead come World of Warcraft the Forsaken are doing the exact same things as the Scourge even in Vanilla killing villages of living people around with the excuse that they are gonna get attacked according to Sylvannas. Ambermill was one of them which was a city of Dalaran mages and somehow the Kirin Tor never learned of that situation.

    However that goes against what Forsaken should have been which was a nation of Former dead Lordaeronians who have freed themselves from the Lich King wanting to rebuild their own lives back and be left in peace. Both the players and Blizzard never knew how to be Forsaken and that is why you see literally Scourge 2.0 while various factions that united against the Lich King and brought him down turn a blind eye on them. That can't work anymore in a playable faction so it's a good idea to bring Voss, Derek and especially Calia. They will be able to change them completely and even if Sylvannas came back she is a Sylvannas that the good part put the bad part aside and would try to do the same as Calia.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Actually Varodoc I would say neither Blizzard nor the Forsaken players know how to be Forsaken. When the Forsaken were introduced in Warcraft 3 they were supposed to be something different from the Scourge. Something better than the Scourge. Instead come World of Warcraft the Forsaken are doing the exact same things as the Scourge even in Vanilla killing villages of living people around with the excuse that they are gonna get attacked according to Sylvannas. Ambermill was one of them which was a city of Dalaran mages and somehow the Kirin Tor never learned of that situation.

    However that goes against what Forsaken should have been which was a nation of Former dead Lordaeronians who have freed themselves from the Lich King wanting to rebuild their own lives back and be left in peace. Both the players and Blizzard never knew how to be Forsaken and that is why you see literally Scourge 2.0 while various factions that united against the Lich King and brought him down turn a blind eye on them. That can't work anymore in a playable faction so it's a good idea to bring Voss, Derek and especially Calia. They will be able to change them completely and even if Sylvannas came back she is a Sylvannas that the good part put the bad part aside and would try to do the same as Calia.
    This is true.

    In the end, not even Forsaken players (ironically) know what it means to be Forsaken.

    Forsaken players always interpret that one line in the intro "You must destroy any who opposes your dark plans, living or dead" as meaning "Nuke the shit out of every city and kingdom you come across", but that is NOT what it means. The Forsaken should be pragmatic, cold-hearted, ruthless even, but there's a big difference between this and straight up chaotic evil cackling mad scientist.

    For instance, the Ren'dorei are very pragmatic, cold-hearted, and ruthless. They threw Horde ambassadors into the Void to stop negotiations between Horde and Zandalari. They desecrated animal corpses to break the hope of the Zandalari enemy. But they are not chaotic pure evil to the point that it becomes a meme, like when the Forsaken apothecaries started acting like literal Scooby doo mad scientists.

    In the end, the Forsaken were never supposed to be evil. The Forsaken were supposed to be a refuge for all the victims of the Scourge and they were meant to be more honorable and respectable than the Scourge. But in Cataclysm they mass-raised Alliance farmers to use them as cannon fodder and in BfA they mind-controlled the innocent Derek Proudmoore. This is not what the Forsaken stood for. People who think Forsaken were meant to be the "evil option" never understood them.

    Forsaken players will just have to realize that they never understood the Forsaken and that Calia and Voss are what the Forsaken should REALLY be about. All they should do is offer a refuge to all free-willed undead who are aimless and don't know what to do. Sylvanas was always the mistake, the fluke, and the Forsaken were never supposed to be Scourge 2.0 who literally destroy entire kingdoms. Ironic, the one who never truly understood the Forsaken is the one who founded them in the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    They got married and they lived happily ever after, THE END of faction war, and two of my favorite characters can name their firstborn Arthas junior.

    So he can be isekaed back to WoW, as forsaken baby ofc. /s
    You're overreacting. The picture and the fact that the ship exists in the first place is disturbing, but that's not my point.

    We have to acknowledge that New Sylvanas considers Anduin "Little Lion" one of her best friends:




    The Sylvanas who tried to kill Anduin with the blight is gone from existence.

    The New Sylvanas now sees Anduin as a trusted and dear friend and so it seems advantageous for the Alliance if such a person led the Horde. Plus, the rest of the Horde wouldn't really care she's changed and would still hate her. It's literally the ideal scenario, we put an Alliance puppet who loves Anduin in the Horde council and we see the ensuing chaos emerge between all the old Sylvanas haters and the new Sylvanas.

    I never thought I'd say this, but now I really want Sylvanas to come back to the Horde!
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-13 at 10:39 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •