To Be Forsaken

[Powerogue]

Calia Menethil, you stand accused by the community of being written in the story to take Sylvanas's place as leader of the Forsaken. To treat them as poor, unfortunate sheep in need of a shepherd to give them hope, and to use your family name as a source of unearned authority among the people of Lordaeron. How do you plead?



Not guilty.

Throughout this new questline we see the understandable tentativeness from the Forsaken towards Calia Menethil. I know personally I always saw Lilian Voss as her polar opposite, reflecting the vengeful and dark cruelties that the Forsaken tend to embody, and that their collision in the story would end in bloodshed. But throughout this questline we see every major concern recognized. the "lightbound" resurrection, "necromancy is necromancy", just a different power source. Calia's willingness to work towards building a better future for the Forsaken by wading through that blight and going through hell (well, Maldraxxus) and back to prove herself despite no one believing in her, the name proving more of a hinderance to their trust than anything.

Bringing it all together with a moment I certainly was not expecting: Finding common ground.



Calia Menethil of the line of Arthas who destroyed Lordaeron and unleashed the scourge upon it that would become their new twisted existence.

and Lilian Voss, of the line of fanatical Scarlet Crusade undead hunters.


Both initially ran, but would ultimately find themselves among the Forsaken, working every day to carve out a new existence despite their histories during their time among the living.

A new living, together, as a council, For The Forsaken!

(So takeaways/discussion: Do you agree that they successfully integrated Calia into the Forsaken story without redefining what "being Forsaken" is? Why or why not? How did you expect this Forsaken post-Sylvanas epilogue to go and do you think they left anything important out that still needs addressed?)

[omeomorfismo]

it will be like the loyalist questline, blizzard aknowledge they are shitting on everything but whatever, they will ignore it.
belmont and apothecaries wont ever appears, forsaken now will be smelly humans...

fuck blizzard and praise to putress, he was right all along

[Iain]

Being the unwilling leader is only believable if it's earned, if the opportunity of obtaining power has been deliberately rejected to the point where there's no other choice. In that sense Jon Snow was written properly.

A relatively new character walking into the story saying "Oh but I don't seek authority...really? You sure you want me to lead you all? Well I guess I would then." is a shortcut that won't play well no matter how heartfelt she's written.

[loras]

Calia Menethil, you stand accused by the community of being written in the story to take Sylvanas's place as leader of the Forsaken. To treat them as poor, unfortunate sheep in need of a shepherd to give them hope, and to use your family name as a source of unearned authority among the people of Lordaeron. How do you plead?



Not guilty.

Throughout this new questline we see the understandable tentativeness from the Forsaken towards Calia Menethil. I know personally I always saw Lilian Voss as her polar opposite, reflecting the vengeful and dark cruelties that the Forsaken tend to embody, and that their collision in the story would end in bloodshed. But throughout this questline we see every major concern recognized. the "lightbound" resurrection, "necromancy is necromancy", just a different power source. Calia's willingness to work towards building a better future for the Forsaken by wading through that blight and going through hell (well, Maldraxxus) and back to prove herself despite no one believing in her, the name proving more of a hinderance to their trust than anything.

Bringing it all together with a moment I certainly was not expecting: Finding common ground.



Calia Menethil of the line of Arthas who destroyed Lordaeron and unleashed the scourge upon it that would become their new twisted existence.

and Lilian Voss, of the line of fanatical Scarlet Crusade undead hunters.


Both initially ran, but would ultimately find themselves among the Forsaken, working every day to carve out a new existence despite their histories during their time among the living.

A new living, together, as a council, For The Forsaken!

(So takeaways/discussion: Do you agree that they successfully integrated Calia into the Forsaken story without redefining what "being Forsaken" is? Why or why not? How did you expect this Forsaken post-Sylvanas epilogue to go and do you think they left anything important out that still needs addressed?)

Sums it up fairly well, from a forsaken/horde perspective.
Going forward i expect more ex-scourge to join them, even if just to give us more of a look at i.e. nerubians, and potentially finding new entries elsewhere.
Blizsard already took a stab at this with the alliance war campaign in BfA, involving the San'layn.
It would also provide a somewhwt logical / "positive" means of reinforcing their numbers, while not being as unbelievable as a just-died night elf going "i am... forsaken".

Plus it'd give th scourge aesthetic a new home in more factions, there is evidently a taste for that, especially after the thematic disaster that is Maldraxxus.

[Enter Name Here]

perfect opportunity for a lesson about inclusiveness

so...warchief of the horde some time into dragonflight?

[AcidicSyn]

I'm with Belmont and IC I don't trust her to lead and don't like it.

OOC? meh, see what they do.

[Hugnomo]

I loved it.
And one of the tings I loved the most, is that we got a questline that involved many forsaken characters. With Sylvanas as leader, the spotlight was often on her alone.
If distrust toward Calia, from the characters or the playerbase, means we have a more involved roster of forsaken characters in the mix, developing and clashing with the different approaches and mentality, fleshing out forsaken lore, then this can only be positive. Making Calia develop and earn their trust over time seems great.
I personaly really like Calia, but even without her, I just really liked how they kind of did things I wish they'd have done this expansion. Go to Maldraxxus and have conversations about the nature of undeath, conversations about the forsaken culture and the friction in regards to the morality of their actions (plague, apothecaries). And regarding Calia specifically, I like the idea of having to prove herself.

What I would have liked though was to experience an even wider perspective on this from the forsaken as a group. Are there those who still view the menethil line with reverance like some did in Before the Storm? How do they clash with those who have resentment towards that name? How do Sylvanas loyalists feel about their own actions and participation in her plans? How do the forsaken deal with the different set of moral standards in the individual characters?

But I recognize that's a lot. What we got was great, and I hope we get a continuation in this vein. I wish all of the corners of warcraft got this treatment, of having their own situational stories fleshed out, instead of a specific main cast of characters

[Super Dickmann]

I've gone on about this endlessly for years and now that it's happened I've already given my thoughts on the other open threads, so tl;dr:

Have they successfully integrated Calia into the Forsaken without redefining what being Forsaken is?

No. But they've redefined it less than they did in BTS, BFA or Shadows Rising. This is the closest to a Forsaken story there's been in years, but it's like being the most handsome man in an Andrew Lloyd Weber lookalike competition.

Why or why not?

The route chosen is fine - Calia seeking to contribute to the Forsaken, being mistrusted based on what she is and then contributing in a way others in her position wouldn't. It is leagues better than their entire society being retconned in BTS into a laughable police state they're happy to defect to her based on her family name within nanoseconds of her appearing. Or to have their extant cast vanish so Derek and Delaryn can be the Forsaken characters instead with Voss praising her after her lobotomy as being able to save these sadsacks, then having Calia be part of the Council and de facto leader in Shadows Rising. Those stories are so putrid, so entirely beside the point of the race that virtually any backtracking of it would be good and the story does backtrack heavily. Both the Sylvanas book and this quest heavily pull back on it and place Calia in the subordinate position to do so.

However, putting makeup on a corpse doesn't bring it back to life. All that damage still happened and the end point of making Calia the face of the race still took place. It's just that they chose to do it in a roundabout way instead and removed many of the most galling elements to keep the core of what they want alive. Calia no longer being given godlike charisma that has everyone instantly fall in love with her apropo of nothing makes her becoming the de facto leader even more rushed and baffling in a questline that otherwise emphasises the hurdles she'd go through. The flaws of their predestined end shows through both in that she's the main character and not they, but also in that every interaction centers on her and she's the one to get the cutscene grooming her for leadership. She is still built at their expense and the questline is incapable, by default, to address the external expression of the Forsaken, i.e their relationships with the Horde and with humanity, both of which are essential for it to function going forward. Shredding the most lasting conflict of the undead in that with humans by having them be able to be friends thanks to Anduin and Calia needs to be reversed before the race can function externally, not just internally and it needs to be portrayed why they're still with the Horde, with the position of the old guard winning over Calia who's not any less an Alliance character now than she was then, see trying to give up territory seconds after her appointment.

How did you expect this Forsaken post-Sylvanas epilogue to go?

To carry on from BTS and BFA where Calia appears to the Forsaken as their glorious savior, all their prior characters are nowhere to be seen, and an inexplicably influential Voss is praising how she's taught them love and peace and will lead them into the future. Then she'd take over these hollowed out husks who were banned from saying the word Lordaeron despite the whole Cataclysm story being based on it. Shadows Rising went that route, this questline backtracked heavily and benefitted from it.

Do you think they left anything important out that still needs addressed?

Beyond what's referenced up top, as said her being questioned and grilled and having to carry the weight for the race which is already on its feet when she comes to visit is a good start, but it doesn't matter if they don't appear later while she does. Handwaving the Light undead thing away doesn't change that the difference with them is not only historical and functional, though that also needs further work, but inherent. Blizzard are still shilling the character, they're just doing it in a way that's more sophisticated and preserves more of the undead. They've shown they can make their golden child drag her ass and show doubt. If they stop and then continue with tirelessly protecting the living, as is very likely, they'll have failed but made the race more palatable than anything post-BTS. If they double down on the best parts of this questline and cover the aforementioned aspects, there's hope.

[Gaidax]

I am split on this.

First of all, moving this out of the way - I believe Calia is a good addition to the Forsaken repertoire, a much needed builder and healer character to counterbalance the inherent edginess and even cruelty of Forsaken with some compassion and positive vision. This would be a great asset for Forsaken on their way to securing their place in the world among the others.

On the other hand, I think the whole "keys to the kingdom" moment was almost comically rushed - we see her whole half a dozen times here and there with much of it moping around or being some sort of passive/observer character barely involved with Forsaken and suddenly "bada bing bada boom" she literally becomes one of 4 faction leaders.

Even in novels, she did not really do anything much that is worth that kind of honor. She's a good character, good intentions, wants to help, but she simply does not have enough notches under the best to be a leader, even if it's shared power leader.

She's "undercooked" and should have stayed in the oven another expansion or so to gather some accolades for her deeds. It's sort of like mini Jailer moment there, where Jailer suddenly out of blue popped up as this omega super omnipotent villain that is implied to have orchestrated pretty much everything and it was pretty odd. Same here - Calia suddenly out of blue is a leader of the Forsaken after seemingly barely interacting with them aside from one side story or two.

---

What would probably be better is to have Calia join as some sort of middle management support figure for the Forsaken and then go up from there through her work for the cause. A future leader in training if you will, not unlike MoP's Anduin.

[Hugnomo]

I am split on this.

First of all, moving this out of the way - I believe Calia is a good addition to the Forsaken repertoire, a much needed builder and healer character to counterbalance the inherent edginess and even cruelty of Forsaken with some compassion and positive vision. This would be a great asset for Forsaken on their way to securing their place in the world among the others.

On the other hand, I think the whole "keys to the kingdom" moment was almost comically rushed - we see her whole half a dozen times here and there with much of it moping around or being some sort of passive/observer character barely involved with Forsaken and suddenly "bada bing bada boom" she literally becomes one of 4 faction leaders.

Even in novels, she did not really do anything much that is worth that kind of honor. She's a good character, good intentions, wants to help, but she simply does not have enough notches under the best to be a leader, even if it's shared power leader.

She's "undercooked" and should have stayed in the oven another expansion or so to gather some accolades for her deeds. It's sort of like mini Jailer moment there, where Jailer suddenly out of blue popped up as this omega super omnipotent villain that is implied to have orchestrated pretty much everything and it was pretty odd. Same here - Calia suddenly out of blue is a leader of the Forsaken after seemingly barely interacting with them aside from one side story or two.

This is a critical take that I can agree with. And unfortunately, I think it kind of plagues the entire story and its characters. Because overall, we basically get what, 5 or 6 story moments in an expansion, 2 years. And telling a story that evolves characters, with dramatic actions, twists and turns, it's always going to seem rushed to do it in 6 paragraphs.
I felt the same regarding Yrel, going from a nobody to the leader of the Draenei in one expansion. I know what the roadmap was, and it could have been done really well, but because of the format of the game, it feels almost always too rushed.

[Ersula]

Calia getting thoughtful character development: Good

A character getting thoughful character development after standing around doing nothing for seveal years since her inception: Bad

A mary sue admitting she's a mary sue but also feeling really bad about it: Also a time-honored trademark of the mary sue trope

[Iain]

A mary sue admitting she's a mary sue but also feeling really bad about it: Also a time-honored trademark of the mary sue trope

If anything it only makes it more conceited.

[Caerule]

Honestly I think my main problem with Calia is how she dresses. If you want to be Forsaken, don't show up dressed as an elf on her wedding day, standing in a circle of people going for similar looks to what they have established as their racial identity. Stop this whole "Pallid Lady" stuff.

That said, I think the Calia hatred has been largely nonsense as well. We don't know where the story will go. People are just guessing, and then getting angry at their guess, because what they guess hasn't been earned yet. It's like starting to read the Lord of the Rings, skipping to the end and going "They made Aragorn the King?! He's just a lone ranger! Tolkien is garbage!"

We don't know what Blizzard's intention with this story is.
-Is she just a vessel to give the Forsaken a version of the Light that won't harm them, in order to give them the often-requested Forsaken Paladins?
-Does she have some role to play in an upcoming Light As The Enemy expansion?
-Will she serve a role like Sylvanas?

We don't know. I think we're all in agreement that she's not suitable to replace Sylvanas. She herself would be the first person to agree with you. Maybe the character will grow, evolve and someday earn such a position. And if that ever seems to be happening, we could argue on whether that's earned and suitable. But clearly, this is not that day, and everyone agrees on that. So, maybe let's just sit back and see where this story is going, rather than being spiteful prophets about it.

[Rendark]

This quest made me dislike her even more. All they had to do was get rid of this fake holy undead thing and have her be around for more then barely at all and i would be fine with her.

They could have done so much with her. Maybe something like Sylvanas killing her and raising her to be a slave like that proudmoore guy. Then we have to save her in some quest. This would make her a true undead, show her what the Forsaken have been throw and give us time to get to know her.

[Powerogue]

Honestly I think my main problem with Calia is how she dresses. If you want to be Forsaken, don't show up dressed as an elf on her wedding day, standing in a circle of people going for similar looks to what they have established as their racial identity. Stop this whole "Pallid Lady" stuff.

I had the thought while playing through the questline that they could've made her come out of the blight visibly stained and worse for the wear as the new model, but thinking on it I feel like that'd be too ham-fisted as a "look at this sacrificial thing I did" to make that a permanent element of her character model, even if it might've looked cool.

And definitely agree on Hugnomo's takes, the Forsaken still have plenty of storytelling ground to be covered in the future.

They could have done so much with her. Maybe something like Sylvanas killing her

To be fair that part did happen.

[PenguinChan]

I’m glad they’re using the lore about Forsaken being actual beings with emotion and distrust. Like they did in BfA against Sylvanas, they seem to do now with Calia. Going forward they have a chance at developing more Forsaken characters beyond Calia and Voss. But as is tradition, there is a high likelihood we won’t and it’ll stay these two as the figureheads of the Forsaken for years to come.

I still think the council is a good place to start for future development and contention within their own race.

[voidox]

Honestly I think my main problem with Calia is how she dresses. If you want to be Forsaken, don't show up dressed as an elf on her wedding day, standing in a circle of people going for similar looks to what they have established as their racial identity. Stop this whole "Pallid Lady" stuff.

This quest made me dislike her even more. All they had to do was get rid of this fake holy undead thing and have her be around for more then barely at all and i would be fine with her.

yup, these are the two main issues with Calia:

1) she is being rushed way too much into a prominent leadership role with the Forsaken and was immediately in on horde council meetings, without any real development or time spent on her character. She barely joined the horde yet she was already part of the horde council meetings, like wat?

2) why did Blizzard think to make her a stupid "light undead" and basically look like literally no other Forsaken character at all? at least Sylvanus looked like the other Dark Rangers who are part of the Forsaken.

EDIT - 3) oh ya, holy fck the "Pallid Lady" and "Champion of the Pallid Lady" are next level cringe and forced, just stop right here Blizzard pls. Trust us on this Danuser, you don't need to use those titles again and no one will say anything at all

__________________________________________________

why not just make her an undead like all the other Forsaken, but raised in some different way and with some special new gimmick to sate Danuser. That way, she'd be an actual Forsaken in more than just having a surname and still provide a new means for more Forsaken to be raised.

also, by being an actual undead like other Forsaken, she'd be much more accepted by Forsaken players at large and we could move past the issue of her being a light bulb and 180 to the Forsaken in every way.
___________________________________________________

so ya, instead of good character development and growth, we get years of her standing around being treated and talked about as this "saviour" and "only one who can guide/heal/help the forsaken/new undead" based on her literal zero years of experience or knowledge about undeath/forsaken/necromancy/horde/so on and with nothing to show for it

We kept getting told stuff like: "oh look how special she is, she was able to help the undead kaldorei!" despite having nothing believable to help them with and never being shown what she did. Or "omg look, some horde leaders are going to her for advice! see how amazing she is!" using her years of knowledge/experience in horde/leade---oh wait, she has none of that, so what advice was she giving anyone?

then we get this quest line that Blizzard thinks is her doing anything special and proves her as a Forsaken (which it doesn't), and tee hee she's now a Forsaken leader and accepted by many... like wat?

does she even have any experience or knowledge in leadership in general? how is she going to help lead the Forsaken and make decisions when she barely even knows anything about the Forsaken and what it means to be Forsaken? heck, has she even interacted with the general Forsaken populace? do they even know she is part of this council and want her there? and so many more questions about this
___________________________________________________________

at most, she should have been kept as an advisor to the Desolate Council and maybe get some official titles of Diplomat of the Forsaken to deal with the Alliance. Then have her at least grow as a character and be an actual Forsaken, gain some knowledge about her new life/surroundings/people, prove her worth and all that before putting her on the leadership council

[Arikara]

Belmont is right on the money. Blizzard bothering to aknowledge the critique does not absolve her of her Mary Sue status. You say that she pleads Not Guilty; Well, I judge her differently.

If they want her 'leadership' to be justified, have her crawl through hell and back and return with the scars to prove it. You know, like Voss did.

Striding in like a shining, pristine angel of care and compassion to complain about Arthas twenty years after the fact ain't fooling anyone. She was made up to fill a missing seat.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Do you agree that they successfully integrated Calia into the Forsaken story without redefining what "being Forsaken" is? Why or why not?

No.
- She still abandoned her people the moment the Scourge came.
- She still left her people to - literally - rot for over a decade before even showing interest in them again (ignoring the fact that Forsaken had been a globally known faction for years before her revelation).
- She still attempted to spread sedition at the Gathering in Arathi.

With the last point very explicitly contradicting her point that she is "[not] seeking authority where [she has] none", as she was trying to undermine Sylvanas' control over the Forsaken by that one act. Moreover, she doesn't even understand what the Forsaken have gone through.
- She lost her family, but was she the cause? Was she the one who turned on her loved ones and neighbors while not in control of herself? Was she forced to witness the horrors of the Scourge first hand, not just as a victim but as a forced perpetrator? No, she lived a quiet life in Southshore until it was attacked with Blight.
- Was she scorned by family and friends in the other kingdoms after death? No, she was immediately accepted by everyone as being who she was and had no hardships brought onto her.

Her existence leading to and into undead has been massively privileged over the Forsaken. She was not abandoned by her friends, she did not undergo the same hardships, and she has not experienced what they experienced. Her entire story is just showing up, immediately being accepted, and then proceeding to make stupid decisions which cause her to die, only to be resurrected by a Naaru and, once again, be immediately accepted without reservation at the time. The fact that they're pointing to some minor concerns now - almost a decade after the point was first introduced - isn't particularly relevant. She is not a Forsaken, she cannot accurately represent Forsaken, and the only thing she will do is add another Baine to the Horde.

[Makorus]

People act like she is the leader of the Undead when she is literally not.

But then again, expecting people to do anything more than look at cinematics would be crazy.