Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Gaidax]

Yikes. That's somehow even worse than "Mobile Dungeon Keeper", where you at least get to know the game is shit after about 50 seconds, instead of getting invested first and them trying to trick you with sunk cost fallacy.



(Disclaimer every time I post this: The actual original Dungeon Keeper games are great and some of my favorite classic PC video games.)

While I am all for bashing D:I's predatory MTX setup, don't jump to conclusions based on one post.

The game has plenty free progression - you still have paragon levels just like in D3 and drops you get depend on your paragon level + difficulty you run content in. And there is A LOT of content types.



The gems issue is big, but it's not AS big as people make it out to be. It is true that a character that literally WHALES the shit out the game will be about 2x powerful (as long as they keep up paragon level - important point), but the base power actually comes from gear you grind out like in every game.

Gem resonance (which is what gems give besides base stuff) is a multiplier on top of gear you found - for example my multiplier is at around 30% now, while F2P player would probably have like 5-10% from gems they do get (you can craft them and such too). In my case I tossed about 100 bucks in game. Resonance cap is 400%, but nobody can get it because there are no gems to support it yet. One of the top whales has like ~250% resonance and the guy spent few hundred thousands.


My take is this: if they'd remove all this gem resonance and P2W gem upgrades from the game - it would be down right better Diablo 3 right there, as far as game itself is concerned. Simply because there is so much different stuff to do there in-between PvP, Raids and Shadow/Immortal game mode, that on top everything D3 got now like bounties, dungeons and rifts.

Quite frankly, I am almost shocked they did not introduce D:I game modes to Diablo 3, that'd be nothing short of expansion worthy there and would make it a much better game.

[Nymrohd]

Welp, hit Paragon and I'm done. The game is far too aggressively monetized at that point and it really kills any motivation to start on proper "gear" (gem) progression.

Shame, there's a wonderful mobile game, and pretty good game overall, buried beneath the layers of gross, exploitative monetization.

I'm at paragon 27. Still just empowered battle pass is the only thing I bought. I did luck into a decent gem (3/5 Howler's Call) but I can't say it does THAT much damage.
I am always on the higher end of leaderboards for challenge rifts. In battlegrounds I am usually top 3 (was MVP three times in a row today). Yes whales have an advantage but so far it does not seem insurmountable. Now I will be going Hell 2 this weekend most likely (I average 2,5 levels per day) so I'll see how different things are when you get there.
I'd say the endgame loop is strictly better than D3. There is much more variety in meaningful activities. If this had been a second xpac for D3 and did not have this aggressive monetization (a battle pass would be ok) I think I'd probably shift most of my WoW time to that game. It's sad because the game is actually great and would have been so much greater if there was some reasonable path to grinding for 5 star gems and awakening was not at rank 10.

[Gaidax]

I'd say the endgame loop is strictly better than D3. There is much more variety in meaningful activities. If this had been a second xpac for D3 and did not have this aggressive monetization (a battle pass would be ok) I think I'd probably shift most of my WoW time to that game. It's sad because the game is actually great and would have been so much greater if there was some reasonable path to grinding for 5 star gems and awakening was not at rank 10.

My thoughts exactly. As far as gameplay and game modes offered go - D:I is plain and simple a better D3.

Which makes it sad on two fronts:

1. If Blizz would not go full out greed there - it would be a great game. The base stuff you do is better than any Diablo game before ever.
2. Why the hell Blizzard could not do that for Diablo 3? It's mind-boggling.

[Farora]

Blizzard has already been at the bottom for a decade. So they can't really fall.

[Cracked]

Why the hell Blizzard could not do that for Diablo 3? It's mind-boggling.

They could. But what profit is in that?

[Gaidax]

They could. But what profit is in that?

It was for them to figure out - quite clearly games like PoE can do it and they don't even ask box price.

I think that'd be better than a life support game D3 is nowadays.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard has already been at the bottom for a decade. So they can't really fall.

No, I think D:I clearly shows they can "outdo" themselves in that department.

The MTX scheme there is a big innovation in lawyerspeak and technicality play.

[Nymrohd]

My thoughts exactly. As far as gameplay and game modes offered go - D:I is plain and simple a better D3.

Which makes it sad on two fronts:

1. If Blizz would not go full out greed there - it would be a great game. The base stuff you do is better than any Diablo game before ever.
2. Why the hell Blizzard could not do that for Diablo 3? It's mind-boggling.

We could have had a similar plot with us reclaiming and rebuilding Westmarch which would now act as a lobby and searching for the shards of the black soulstone instead of the worldstone. Everything could fit. Add the druid together with the necro and good god would people play that game.

As for monetization, a seasonal battle pass would effectively make the game have a sub and they could do further monetization with cosmetics since the moment you add a lobby, you add bragging rights beyond just leaderboards. Heck they could even go crazy and add housing (rebuilding Westmarch translates to that).

Just the cycle of strife would have changed the game completely.

[Anzen]

That's your mistake. You assume the game stays the same for the whole year. if you played your share of gacha games - then you should know that's never the case.

Then I think you are extremely naive. In most gacha games, the new content usually revolves around re-incentivising spending through new systems - e.g. 'a new currency that allows you to buy SUPER LEGENDARY GEMS that make the old legendary gems redundant'. If you want to stay relevant, you'll need to acquire these new super legendary gems, you can earn one a month through the SUPER BOSS but luckily Blizzard has another way you can acquire them...

I think given the insane predatory practices adopted in Diablo Immortal, could you honestly say you'd be suprised if they didn't pull this as their next content update?

[Jerot]

Wait where is the %? Because my understanding is that since Crests go into a Rift (which has to be completed by the player in time) that % don't need to be reported by Blizzard. It's not like Crest directly yield loot box but rather yields access to loot piñata. That small difference seems to keep some of the EU lawyers/regulators at bay (for now)

It's been reported elsewhere like on Wowhead, not 100% sure of the source of the numbers but through community data gathering they seem to line up with the tables.

Using a crest gives you a;

75.4% Chance of 1-Star
20.1% Chance of 2-Star
4.5% Chance of ?/5-star

When rolling a ?/5-Star the distribution is

2/5: 75%
3/5: 20%
4/5: 4%
5/5: 1%

Which equates to roughly 1 5/5 gem every 2,222 rolls.

You can use any 5/5 to upgrade another ?/5 gem to 5/5, so technically you only need 36 of any kind at that rank to minmax. But it still works out to 79,992 rolls on average to get that many. Which is like $177k, not counting required duplicates and gem power for ranking them all up. Can't math it out for F2P because the awakening that lets you use more gems requires money.

[Nymrohd]

It's been reported elsewhere like on Wowhead, not 100% sure of the source of the numbers but through community data gathering they seem to line up with the tables.

Using a crest gives you a;

75.4% Chance of 1-Star
20.1% Chance of 2-Star
4.5% Chance of ?/5-star

When rolling a ?/5-Star the distribution is

2/5: 75%
3/5: 20%
4/5: 4%
5/5: 1%

Which equates to roughly 1 5/5 gem every 2,222 rolls

No need for data gathering. The game GIVES you these numbers. It probably has to, by law.

[Chaotic1962]

Dont forget the other caps:

Legendary & Set Pieces – 5 or 6 per day, then drops reduced drastically.
Normal Gems in 4-player Dungeons – 1 per run until your 6th gem of the day, then 1 per hour.
Sidequests (3! Blue Marks) – The first 6 quests of the day will reward you 5x Yellow Materials max. After that, it’s much harder to find new quests (approx. 1 per hour).
Purple World Boss Quests – Max 5 x Yellow Mat for each reward. After the 5th boss, it stops dropping.
Popup Side Quests (Blue or Eliminate x Monsters) – The first 5 quests reward up to 5 Yellow Materials, and then it stops dropping.
Library of Zoltun Kulle 5 Pages – You can summon the bosses once per day. One dungeon (from a small random pool) is materials only, others have a chance to drop legendaries. Ideally do 5 per day.
Hidden Lairs – A maximum of 6 normal gems per day. After two Hidden Lairs, it stops dropping.
Cursed Chests – Max 5 x Yellow Mat for each. After the 5th, it stops dropping.
Daily Bestiary
You can have 10 monster essence at a time (stops dropping when you have 10) and then trade it for a new bestiary page.
Up to 3 pages per day.
After the 3rd daily page, you can exchange 10 x monster essence for random prizes (or save it and use it the next day)
There is a 30% chance to receive a duplicated entry.
There is a higher chance of getting 3 duplicated page entries in a row after 60 pages.
You can get up to 3 legendaries on a single turn-in.
Rarities and Antiquities Merchant – The daily limit is 25 and it gets more expensive (150%) after the 10th purchase.
Daily Bounties – Up to four active quests at a time, eight in total per day.
Legacy of Horadrim – A maximum of four key drops from the Horadrim dungeon mobs per day.
Fading Embers from enhanced Elder Rifts – A weekly limit of 200 and a maximum of 120 bonus from other players in a party with an active Crest (Rare or Legendary)

[Witchblade77]

On the sliding scale of "actual video game" to "Mobile Dungeon Keeper", where does this fall? For all the people talking about it I haven't seen gameplay footage yet.

if you manage to ignore MTX (which gets progressively harder to do) it might as well be expansion to D3 (chronologically its a prequel, but in terms of gameplay, its very D3 like) I primarily play on PC (vision problems, phone screen is too small for me to play with for long, otherwise, it plays well on the phone) and in minute to minute gameplay it feels and looks like d3 to me - but you know with mandatory multiplayer in end game. yes its mandatory, you cannot run hell dungeons and a few other bits of content solo - the game literally will not let you start content unless in group - exception being rifts, those you can do solo even on hell1 and I'm assuming Hell2 and up. that said... because its designed around MTX, you get all kinds of roadblocks to character progression because of it and I'm personaly inching closer and closer to frustration/quit point. but minute to minute play - its a good game. which is what makes it so sad, IMO

[Elim Garak]

Then I think you are extremely naive.

How am I naïve if I just said the game is not static and then you said yeah they will add new systems?

I think given the insane predatory practices adopted in Diablo Immortal, could you honestly say you'd be suprised if they didn't pull this as their next content update?

I'd be surprised if they don't. That's how every evergreen game operates. Including WoW. Every new expansion invalidates the previous.

Suddenly the 40 years of grinding irrelevant 5-star gems is no longer a problem to polish your ass with.

[Gaidax]

I'd be surprised if they don't. That's how every evergreen game operates. Including WoW. Every new expansion invalidates the previous.

Suddenly the 40 years of grinding irrelevant 5-star gems is no longer a problem to polish your ass with.

What does that matter? The point is the pretty big gap from F2P or even reasonably paying customers and whales.

These 5 star gems won't matter in 2 years from now? No shit, Sherlock. But then you will have 10 skull uber gems that will practically have same issue and it's back to square one.

Some dumb takes there, mate. Might as well say "it's all meaningless, we all gonna die anyway in 40-80 years give or take". Does not make current situation "ok".


For example I tossed chill 100 bucks into game and I don't even begin to scratch the surface of power a whale has. I am ~25% stronger than any F2P player ~ same paragon level. But if you take whale whales, they are still double my power at appropriate paragon.

That's just cringe, because the only difference there is $$ - not skill and not effort.

[Alroxas]

No need for data gathering. The game GIVES you these numbers. It probably has to, by law.

Normally it does but from what I understand of the gambling regulations on loot boxes:

If loot boxes (legendary crests in this scenario) directly gives you loot, then the devs need to publish the % chance of each item that it can drop.

However, since crests don't directly turn into loot (as the player still needs to complete a rift in time), then the % chance doesn't need to be published.

It's one of those "letter of the law" ways to skirt around the regulation. So if the game gives the numbers, I'd like to see a link from Blizzard stating here are the % chance drop rates.

[Nymrohd]

Normally it does but from what I understand of the gambling regulations on loot boxes:

If loot boxes (legendary crests in this scenario) directly gives you loot, then the devs need to publish the % chance of each item that it can drop.

However, since crests don't directly turn into loot (as the player still needs to complete a rift in time), then the % chance doesn't need to be published.

It's one of those "letter of the law" ways to skirt around the regulation. So if the game gives the numbers, I'd like to see a link from Blizzard stating here are the % chance drop rates.

Just log in the game and click on the information at the elder rift UI. It gives % chance for legendary gems, chance for extra stars if you roll a 5 star gem as well as chance per type of rune. It's not in any way hidden, it is as upfront as possible.

There are many things that are hidden in the game. Multiple daily caps on rewards exist. But at least when it comes to the elder crests we have all the information.

[Elim Garak]

What does that matter? The point is the pretty big gap from F2P or even reasonably paying customers and whales.

These 5 star gems won't matter in 2 years from now? No shit, Sherlock. But then you will have 10 skull uber gems that will practically have same issue and it's back to square one.

Some dumb takes there, mate. Might as well say "it's all meaningless, we all gonna die anyway in 40-80 years give or take". Does not make current situation "ok".


For example I tossed chill 100 bucks into game and I don't even begin to scratch the surface of power a whale has. I am ~25% stronger than any F2P player ~ same paragon level. But if you take whale whales, they are still double my power at appropriate paragon.

That's just cringe, because the only difference there is $$ - not skill and not effort.

Clearly the point was about mathed out 40 years. Not that it will be replaced with another lootloop.

Speaking of dumb takes...

[Gaidax]

Clearly the point was about mathed out 40 years. Not that it will be replaced with another lootloop.

Speaking of dumb takes...

It does not matter - the main point is again and again, that the game is rigged in such a way that no matter how you twist or turn a whale will have insurmountable advantage over F2P and even paying customers at any point in time.

And take note, it's not some blind hate or shit like that. I play the game, I paid for various services and I stated that there is plenty good in that game too.

But MTX setup is absolute giga trash that is completely shitting on Blizzard players and is a complete highway robbery piece of shit scheme that would probably make shit like Weebshin Gachapact look good. It's beyond all reason plain and simple, pure unrestrained greed akin to something from a publisher like EA that already has demolished its rep to shit and has nothing human to lose. I bet GameForge look and this and be like "dayum".

You are getting on people nerves trying to somehow twist, turn and obfuscate that simple fact and quite frankly it's simply trolling at this point, so I'll just execute whatever I state in signature to save some frustrations.

[Elim Garak]

It does not matter - the main point is again and again, that the game is rigged in such a way that no matter how you twist or turn a whale will have insurmountable advantage over F2P and even paying customers at any point in time.

How can that be a point - if it's just reality? THAT'S HOW IT IS.

And that's how it should be in f2p games. It cannot be any other way. Even if you can only buy cosmetics. The top cosmetics are whale only.

You are getting on people nerves trying to somehow twist, turn and obfuscate that simple fact and quite frankly it's simply trolling at this point.

If I'm getting on your nerves with the truth you think is your point - self-reflect.

[Cracked]

It was for them to figure out - quite clearly games like PoE can do it and they don't even ask box price.

I think that'd be better than a life support game D3 is nowadays.

Would it have been any better if D3 was pay to win? PoE makes absolute peanuts (per customer or total, it's both pitiful) to what would be considered good OR EVEN ACCEPTABLE to a company like Blizzard. Things don't scale very well. Once the corporate bullshit seeps so deep into a company, it stops being enough and just keeps growing and growing, and is never about a good product anymore.