Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Anzen]

That's your mistake. You assume the game stays the same for the whole year. if you played your share of gacha games - then you should know that's never the case.

Then I think you are extremely naive. In most gacha games, the new content usually revolves around re-incentivising spending through new systems - e.g. 'a new currency that allows you to buy SUPER LEGENDARY GEMS that make the old legendary gems redundant'. If you want to stay relevant, you'll need to acquire these new super legendary gems, you can earn one a month through the SUPER BOSS but luckily Blizzard has another way you can acquire them...

I think given the insane predatory practices adopted in Diablo Immortal, could you honestly say you'd be suprised if they didn't pull this as their next content update?

[Jerot]

Wait where is the %? Because my understanding is that since Crests go into a Rift (which has to be completed by the player in time) that % don't need to be reported by Blizzard. It's not like Crest directly yield loot box but rather yields access to loot piñata. That small difference seems to keep some of the EU lawyers/regulators at bay (for now)

It's been reported elsewhere like on Wowhead, not 100% sure of the source of the numbers but through community data gathering they seem to line up with the tables.

Using a crest gives you a;

75.4% Chance of 1-Star
20.1% Chance of 2-Star
4.5% Chance of ?/5-star

When rolling a ?/5-Star the distribution is

2/5: 75%
3/5: 20%
4/5: 4%
5/5: 1%

Which equates to roughly 1 5/5 gem every 2,222 rolls.

You can use any 5/5 to upgrade another ?/5 gem to 5/5, so technically you only need 36 of any kind at that rank to minmax. But it still works out to 79,992 rolls on average to get that many. Which is like $177k, not counting required duplicates and gem power for ranking them all up. Can't math it out for F2P because the awakening that lets you use more gems requires money.

[Nymrohd]

It's been reported elsewhere like on Wowhead, not 100% sure of the source of the numbers but through community data gathering they seem to line up with the tables.

Using a crest gives you a;

75.4% Chance of 1-Star
20.1% Chance of 2-Star
4.5% Chance of ?/5-star

When rolling a ?/5-Star the distribution is

2/5: 75%
3/5: 20%
4/5: 4%
5/5: 1%

Which equates to roughly 1 5/5 gem every 2,222 rolls

No need for data gathering. The game GIVES you these numbers. It probably has to, by law.

[Chaotic1962]

Dont forget the other caps:

Legendary & Set Pieces – 5 or 6 per day, then drops reduced drastically.
Normal Gems in 4-player Dungeons – 1 per run until your 6th gem of the day, then 1 per hour.
Sidequests (3! Blue Marks) – The first 6 quests of the day will reward you 5x Yellow Materials max. After that, it’s much harder to find new quests (approx. 1 per hour).
Purple World Boss Quests – Max 5 x Yellow Mat for each reward. After the 5th boss, it stops dropping.
Popup Side Quests (Blue or Eliminate x Monsters) – The first 5 quests reward up to 5 Yellow Materials, and then it stops dropping.
Library of Zoltun Kulle 5 Pages – You can summon the bosses once per day. One dungeon (from a small random pool) is materials only, others have a chance to drop legendaries. Ideally do 5 per day.
Hidden Lairs – A maximum of 6 normal gems per day. After two Hidden Lairs, it stops dropping.
Cursed Chests – Max 5 x Yellow Mat for each. After the 5th, it stops dropping.
Daily Bestiary
You can have 10 monster essence at a time (stops dropping when you have 10) and then trade it for a new bestiary page.
Up to 3 pages per day.
After the 3rd daily page, you can exchange 10 x monster essence for random prizes (or save it and use it the next day)
There is a 30% chance to receive a duplicated entry.
There is a higher chance of getting 3 duplicated page entries in a row after 60 pages.
You can get up to 3 legendaries on a single turn-in.
Rarities and Antiquities Merchant – The daily limit is 25 and it gets more expensive (150%) after the 10th purchase.
Daily Bounties – Up to four active quests at a time, eight in total per day.
Legacy of Horadrim – A maximum of four key drops from the Horadrim dungeon mobs per day.
Fading Embers from enhanced Elder Rifts – A weekly limit of 200 and a maximum of 120 bonus from other players in a party with an active Crest (Rare or Legendary)

[Witchblade77]

On the sliding scale of "actual video game" to "Mobile Dungeon Keeper", where does this fall? For all the people talking about it I haven't seen gameplay footage yet.

if you manage to ignore MTX (which gets progressively harder to do) it might as well be expansion to D3 (chronologically its a prequel, but in terms of gameplay, its very D3 like) I primarily play on PC (vision problems, phone screen is too small for me to play with for long, otherwise, it plays well on the phone) and in minute to minute gameplay it feels and looks like d3 to me - but you know with mandatory multiplayer in end game. yes its mandatory, you cannot run hell dungeons and a few other bits of content solo - the game literally will not let you start content unless in group - exception being rifts, those you can do solo even on hell1 and I'm assuming Hell2 and up. that said... because its designed around MTX, you get all kinds of roadblocks to character progression because of it and I'm personaly inching closer and closer to frustration/quit point. but minute to minute play - its a good game. which is what makes it so sad, IMO

[Elim Garak]

Then I think you are extremely naive.

How am I naïve if I just said the game is not static and then you said yeah they will add new systems?

I think given the insane predatory practices adopted in Diablo Immortal, could you honestly say you'd be suprised if they didn't pull this as their next content update?

I'd be surprised if they don't. That's how every evergreen game operates. Including WoW. Every new expansion invalidates the previous.

Suddenly the 40 years of grinding irrelevant 5-star gems is no longer a problem to polish your ass with.

[Gaidax]

I'd be surprised if they don't. That's how every evergreen game operates. Including WoW. Every new expansion invalidates the previous.

Suddenly the 40 years of grinding irrelevant 5-star gems is no longer a problem to polish your ass with.

What does that matter? The point is the pretty big gap from F2P or even reasonably paying customers and whales.

These 5 star gems won't matter in 2 years from now? No shit, Sherlock. But then you will have 10 skull uber gems that will practically have same issue and it's back to square one.

Some dumb takes there, mate. Might as well say "it's all meaningless, we all gonna die anyway in 40-80 years give or take". Does not make current situation "ok".


For example I tossed chill 100 bucks into game and I don't even begin to scratch the surface of power a whale has. I am ~25% stronger than any F2P player ~ same paragon level. But if you take whale whales, they are still double my power at appropriate paragon.

That's just cringe, because the only difference there is $$ - not skill and not effort.

[Alroxas]

No need for data gathering. The game GIVES you these numbers. It probably has to, by law.

Normally it does but from what I understand of the gambling regulations on loot boxes:

If loot boxes (legendary crests in this scenario) directly gives you loot, then the devs need to publish the % chance of each item that it can drop.

However, since crests don't directly turn into loot (as the player still needs to complete a rift in time), then the % chance doesn't need to be published.

It's one of those "letter of the law" ways to skirt around the regulation. So if the game gives the numbers, I'd like to see a link from Blizzard stating here are the % chance drop rates.

[Nymrohd]

Normally it does but from what I understand of the gambling regulations on loot boxes:

If loot boxes (legendary crests in this scenario) directly gives you loot, then the devs need to publish the % chance of each item that it can drop.

However, since crests don't directly turn into loot (as the player still needs to complete a rift in time), then the % chance doesn't need to be published.

It's one of those "letter of the law" ways to skirt around the regulation. So if the game gives the numbers, I'd like to see a link from Blizzard stating here are the % chance drop rates.

Just log in the game and click on the information at the elder rift UI. It gives % chance for legendary gems, chance for extra stars if you roll a 5 star gem as well as chance per type of rune. It's not in any way hidden, it is as upfront as possible.

There are many things that are hidden in the game. Multiple daily caps on rewards exist. But at least when it comes to the elder crests we have all the information.

[Elim Garak]

What does that matter? The point is the pretty big gap from F2P or even reasonably paying customers and whales.

These 5 star gems won't matter in 2 years from now? No shit, Sherlock. But then you will have 10 skull uber gems that will practically have same issue and it's back to square one.

Some dumb takes there, mate. Might as well say "it's all meaningless, we all gonna die anyway in 40-80 years give or take". Does not make current situation "ok".


For example I tossed chill 100 bucks into game and I don't even begin to scratch the surface of power a whale has. I am ~25% stronger than any F2P player ~ same paragon level. But if you take whale whales, they are still double my power at appropriate paragon.

That's just cringe, because the only difference there is $$ - not skill and not effort.

Clearly the point was about mathed out 40 years. Not that it will be replaced with another lootloop.

Speaking of dumb takes...

[Gaidax]

Clearly the point was about mathed out 40 years. Not that it will be replaced with another lootloop.

Speaking of dumb takes...

It does not matter - the main point is again and again, that the game is rigged in such a way that no matter how you twist or turn a whale will have insurmountable advantage over F2P and even paying customers at any point in time.

And take note, it's not some blind hate or shit like that. I play the game, I paid for various services and I stated that there is plenty good in that game too.

But MTX setup is absolute giga trash that is completely shitting on Blizzard players and is a complete highway robbery piece of shit scheme that would probably make shit like Weebshin Gachapact look good. It's beyond all reason plain and simple, pure unrestrained greed akin to something from a publisher like EA that already has demolished its rep to shit and has nothing human to lose. I bet GameForge look and this and be like "dayum".

You are getting on people nerves trying to somehow twist, turn and obfuscate that simple fact and quite frankly it's simply trolling at this point, so I'll just execute whatever I state in signature to save some frustrations.

[Elim Garak]

It does not matter - the main point is again and again, that the game is rigged in such a way that no matter how you twist or turn a whale will have insurmountable advantage over F2P and even paying customers at any point in time.

How can that be a point - if it's just reality? THAT'S HOW IT IS.

And that's how it should be in f2p games. It cannot be any other way. Even if you can only buy cosmetics. The top cosmetics are whale only.

You are getting on people nerves trying to somehow twist, turn and obfuscate that simple fact and quite frankly it's simply trolling at this point.

If I'm getting on your nerves with the truth you think is your point - self-reflect.

[Cracked]

It was for them to figure out - quite clearly games like PoE can do it and they don't even ask box price.

I think that'd be better than a life support game D3 is nowadays.

Would it have been any better if D3 was pay to win? PoE makes absolute peanuts (per customer or total, it's both pitiful) to what would be considered good OR EVEN ACCEPTABLE to a company like Blizzard. Things don't scale very well. Once the corporate bullshit seeps so deep into a company, it stops being enough and just keeps growing and growing, and is never about a good product anymore.

[Dhrizzle]

On the sliding scale of "actual video game" to "Mobile Dungeon Keeper", where does this fall? For all the people talking about it I haven't seen gameplay footage yet.

"Actual video game."

It's really fun and plays like Diablo-lite. You're doing the typical thing of moving around while using various abilities to smash hordes of enemies and the occasional big gribblies. I'm not a big fan of touch-screen controls but the game makes the most of it by allowing you to move with your left-thumb and aim with your right (very handy for AoE and movement abilities.) Kinda like a twin-stick shooter but with more sticks and you can't tell where the sticks are without looking and sometimes use the wrong spell.

I'm enjoying the story so far, some fun little nostalgia-bombs and a really cool moment where you relive the memory of Tal Rasha and Zoltan Kull imprisoning Baal in his soulstone.

It is dumbed down though, but personally I don't care as I can't play a mobile game the way I do a PC one. Exploration is minimal as zones are more linear and you have a footprint trail to follow. Most gear and gem upgrades are flagged with a little arrow and whichever you choose you get a trail again (for example if you see an item has an arrow clicking it might show the gems can be upgraded. Clicking the gem will give you a trail to the gem person.) Once you hit a certain point in each zone it opens up auto-navigate.

Core gameplay is simplified too. Most abilities are simply on a cooldown or have their own energy to draw from (I've only really played the barbarian though) and build variety is much more limited than I initially thought. Still there are fun things like unlocking the equivalent of glyphs by going through the challenge rifts and extracting legendary powers from items to use on others.

If you want a story that bridges Diablos 2 and 3 and to have fun killing monsters this game does a really good job of shrinking D3 down to a mobile device. If you're looking for some sort of digital skinner box that will provide you with regular hits of dopamine without having to pay out a shed-load of cash you might want to look elsewhere.

[Gaidax]

Would it have been any better if D3 was pay to win? PoE makes absolute peanuts (per customer or total, it's both pitiful) to what would be considered good OR EVEN ACCEPTABLE to a company like Blizzard. Things don't scale very well. Once the corporate bullshit seeps so deep into a company, it stops being enough and just keeps growing and growing, and is never about a good product anymore.

It's not black or white.

I am sure Blizzard is fully capable of figuring out the right balance of non-intrusive MTX and reasonable margin targets for business.

And I am sure they will do their best to figure out just that unless they want to turn D4 into a meme for the ages.

[Jerot]

And that's how it should be in f2p games. It cannot be any other way. Even if you can only buy cosmetics. The top cosmetics are whale only.

Name another game that has non-unique cosmetics for people who spend $50k on the game? Not market-set prices, straight player to developer fixed costs.

Or any other game that has single progression systems measured in decades.

it's bad game design and bad monetization. You look like a fool trying to say anything about this is reasonable or expected. P2W is one thing, but even the worst P2W games don't set things up on this scale.

[arkanon]

It's not black or white.

I am sure Blizzard is fully capable of figuring out the right balance of non-intrusive MTX and reasonable margin targets for business.

And I am sure they will do their best to figure out just that unless they want to turn D4 into a meme for the ages.

But this assumes they WANT to make a "reasonable" margin, and not the absolute highest margin they possibly can. Not once have i ever heard a business say "its ok, we are making enough, lets not try and make more money".

Can you imagine that meeting? "well boss, we COULD make $40,000,000 per period, but, i think $10,000,000 is enough, so lets reduce our margins".

Im not saying i agree with this, or that it doesnt frustrate me as well, but at the end of the day a business is there to make as much money as possible, not to be "fair and reasonable".

[NineSpine]

But this assumes they WANT to make a "reasonable" margin, and not the absolute highest margin they possibly can. Not once have i ever heard a business say "its ok, we are making enough, lets not try and make more money".

Can you imagine that meeting? "well boss, we COULD make $40,000,000 per period, but, i think $10,000,000 is enough, so lets reduce our margins".

Im not saying i agree with this, or that it doesnt frustrate me as well, but at the end of the day a business is there to make as much money as possible, not to be "fair and reasonable".

You are oversimplifying the issue.

The question is not maximizing profits. The question is the tradeoff. Blizzard is sacrificing reputation and their fanbase in exchange for short term profits. This could very easily come at the cost of long term profits. The prioritization of short term profits is a problematic aberration that has emerged recently as the norm. This is a response to the financialization of all of our industries, where we turn companies into complex financial instruments rather than firms that produce profit.

[arkanon]

You are oversimplifying the issue.

The question is not maximizing profits. .

Yes, it is. Thats it. You are over complicating the issue. Blizzard will keep doing this while making as much money as possible, adn the "community" will do nothing but continue to open their wallets. Just like EA. Just like Bathesda. Just like the majority of large game companies. Just like disney will keep spewing out hot garbage so long as people keep paying to see it. People think they have power, but they dont. Yes, they can choose not to partake, they can refuse to give the company money, but for every person stopping their $15 sub for wow, there is someone spending $10,000+ in Diablo.

Listen to what the experts are saying - the only way to stop this is regulation - this is because the "players" have proven time and time again they are incapable of banding together and saying "enough!" - they just keep paying. Blizzard do not care if its 1 million players paying $1 each, or 1 player paying $1m.

[chiddie]

Safe bet with blizzard, the only game that gets multiple content updates per year is Hearthstone, and its a genre that came with built-in paid gambling. WoW has gone more than a year without updates before and it's subscription based...

If anything DI is designed to go for long periods without updates because character progression is time gated over multiple decades. Even WoWs weekly lockouts and reward systems didn't take that long to progress through.

You're also assuming if things change they will get better (Adding more free sources of gear/materials) and not worse (Adding more things to buy).

Your whole argument boils down to we can't critique the game as it exists now because it could change. Pretty weak defense. You're basically saying we can't be critical of anything capable of changing. When the opposite is true, theres no point in arguing for changes to be made where no change is possible.



It's a game up until you run out of stuff to do at max level, then every meaningful progression system is daily/weekly/monthly capped unless you pull out a credit card. Buying progress in uncapped, and you can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars min-maxing one character.

Paragon level is tied to the servers progression, going above it gives diminishing returns until a whole days worth of grinding won't level you up. Ranking up your gear and finding better base pieces is locked behind paragon/hell level.

The only uncapped source of power is legendary gems and they can easily make your character twice as strong as someone who isn't as far along in gem progression.

It takes thousands of gems to upgrade through the ranks and it's nearly impossible to get higher rank gems as a free player. You'll get a handful a month, or you can spend $25 and run one 2-5 minute dungeon for several months worth of F2P progression all at once.

Once you max out a gem you have to spend money to awaken the piece of gear it's socketed into, which gives it up to 5 additional gem slots for bonus stats. This isn't available to free players.

Some content is locked behind becoming an immortal, which involves a bunch of PvP progression and fighting against players who are spending money to stay ahead of you. Making it extremely hard if not impossible to achieve as a F2P. Depending on the state of your server, which you cannot switch without rerolling. And everything you earn/buy is locked to one character.

The gameplay looks flashy and the controls on mobile are good. But its very shallow, you don't actually have to dodge those flashy boss attacks, you can AFK most fights. The rest of the game is basically just D3 but with caps. And bounties in a shared map where everyone is fighting for spawns.

Maybe it’s because I’m only 52 and DH is squishy but I can’t assure you that I die in seconds to ANY boss if I go afk.