1. #2401
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They still make $50,000 and in the context of Diablo Immortal that $50,000 player can still do the content in the game, right? It is nothing but exaggeration. Of course better geared players will out perform lesser geared. But your damage compared to the better geared players is irrelevant. It is how you can do the content of the game that is the important thing. So you don't do zero damage for PvE content which is why it is a silly statement.
    The 50k player hits the enemy for 0.1% of its health.
    The 1B player then oneshots the enemy, doing 99.9% of its health. He then rolls away, oneshoting everything in the area before the 50k player lands another blow.

    0.1% approaches zero.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Why are Crests priced at 160 orbs instead of 100 like a stone?
    Why is a car $30,000 and a house is $150,000. Different things have different prices. Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    It's the most popular game in US right now and in top 10 revenue bringer in US.
    Clearly it wasn't designed for Asian market.
    Bubble tea is popular in the US, so it isn't Asian anymore. Who knew.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  2. #2402
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    The 50k player hits the enemy for 0.1% of its health.
    The 1B player then oneshots the enemy, doing 99.9% of its health. He then rolls away, oneshoting everything in the area before the 50k player lands another blow.
    Enemy health doesn't scale based on how much money you spend. It scales off of paragon level. Of course a higher geared person can kill faster then a lower geared person. Duh. A non-paying person will still be able to quickly kill things at their paragon level. Have you actually played the game or played it with out paying? Because it is clear you think a non-paying person will have to spend tons of time killing things when that isn't the case at all.
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  3. #2403
    Man, I actually bothered to watch some of this video, and it's hilarious that people keep parroting Josh Hayes' thing about how many currencies there are.

    Meanwhile he counts things like "battle pass progress" as a currency just to make it seem unreasonable. Or basic materials that existed in D3 like Scrap Material and Enchanted Dust.

    Are the actual purchased currencies confusing? Of course not. Does it make good clickbait to claim, "omg Immortal has 87 currencies to confuse and bewilder poor dumb schmucks!!!"...yes, yes it does.

  4. #2404
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Enemy health doesn't scale based on how much money you spend. It scales off of paragon level. Of course a higher geared person can kill faster then a lower geared person. Duh. A non-paying person will still be able to quickly kill things at their paragon level. Have you actually played the game or played it with out paying? Because it is clear you think a non-paying person will have to spend tons of time killing things when that isn't the case at all.
    Two issues... First, how long would it take a non-paying player to reach the X paragon level in which they can "kill things as fast as a player who paid and has already gotten to X paragon level"?

    Second, you mention gearing... we've seen that a paying player (using up to 10 crests per rift run) gains much more loot drops than a non-paying player. So then wouldn't the non-paying player always behind. And not just a little bit behind but an incredibly large delta difference?

    Maybe in PvE it's not as big of deal, but factor in PvP... that seems incredibly unfun unless DI specifically groups non-paying players with only other non-paying players and paying players can only play with other paying players. (And that even has issues for the later group)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shigma View Post
    DI =/= D4. Just in case. Different market, different platform, chances are they are monetization in D4 will be really different. You still will have to buy D4... at least for now, that's the plan. So i still believe D4 won't be affected by this... but things can change at any point.
    Maybe, but a case could be made that D4 can be just as scummy as DI with MTX made to exploit it's playerbase beyond the initial upfront cost of the game.

    The issue is that gone are the days where a developer makes a game, maybe adds a 1~2 expansion packs, then moves on. Instead corporations have it in their minds to make everything a Games As A Service platform.

    Just take a look at Ubisoft's AC series of late: Tons of MTX left and right. From cosmetics to faster XP gains to maps for treasures to raw materials (so you don't have to farm for them).

    Yes, Blizzard did say that the MTX for D4 is centered around cosmetics and future expansions/DLC but what they didn't say is that the MTX for D4 would ONLY be for cosmetics and future expansions/DLC. As it stands, they could add in P2W elements and state that they never excluded such additions for the MTX shop for D4.

    All of this is basically due to how poorly Wyatt Chang (and Blizzard) has communicated. A lot less complaints would be here if Blizzard just came out and spoke truthy: Diablo Immortal is a P2W game and designed to maximize MTX returns as much as possible. Sure there's a "free" experience there but be warned that you are going to be incredibly disadvantaged left and right unless you pay up.
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  5. #2405
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Two issues... First, how long would it take a non-paying player to reach the X paragon level in which they can "kill things as fast as a player who paid and has already gotten to X paragon level"?
    0. Nothing in DI, except for bosses, takes a while to kill. Even as a non-paying customer you can easily out gear Hell 1. I feel like you, and others, haven't actually played the game to experience the mechanics. Instead you argue on principle based on theory and hypothetical. The non-paying player is only behind in legendary gems. Yes that is a big draw for gearing but it isn't the only source of power and it definitely isn't needed to do things in the game. The game even forces grouping (2 to 4) depending on the Hell level even though you could likely solo stuff except for bosses. So it over compensates even for non-paying customers

    PvP also has a debuff called "Strife" that reduces the effectiveness of Legendary gems among other things. So while there will be a gap in PvP the game does reduce it in order to get some balance. Also the presence of different brackets implies you won't be matched with different brackets so paying players should eventually filter to higher brackets quicker. Though I'm not sure if the brackets filter and most players might not be high enough for it to matter.
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  6. #2406
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    Look, I agree that Diablo Immortal is overly monetized, but if you lack the self-control that you have to purposely fight yourself to not spend money, that honestly sounds like a you problem and I'd recommend you stay away from gambling.
    It’s not about self control or lack of it. It’s about designing a game in such a way that everything literally forces you to spend money - while lying and calling the game free.

    Take PoE for example. It’s “free” alright. However, the inventory that is available for free is simply not enough to play the game efficiently. The game is designed - purposely of course - in such a way that you’re either spending real money for extra inventory, or get stuck in a situation where you have to spend 90% of your playtime micromanaging the inventory (maps are a good example).

    It the game free? No, because you essentially unable to enjoy it unless you spend real money. It’s a great game, but still a fraud.

  7. #2407
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    It’s not about self control or lack of it. It’s about designing a game in such a way that everything literally forces you to spend money - while lying and calling the game free.

    Take PoE for example. It’s “free” alright. However, the inventory that is available for free is simply not enough to play the game efficiently. The game is designed - purposely of course - in such a way that you’re either spending real money for extra inventory, or get stuck in a situation where you have to spend 90% of your playtime micromanaging the inventory (maps are a good example).

    It the game free? No, because you essentially unable to enjoy it unless you spend real money. It’s a great game, but still a fraud.
    I liken it to D2in a way. Currently I am over paragon 30, in Hell2, haven't spent anything nor have felt the need to. Those higher star gems are like those uber rare runes and uniques. I could farm forever and may never see one or I could buy them off a third party site to make the progress faster. DI is not unenjoyably as a free payer IMO, as I am having fun.

  8. #2408
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    0. Nothing in DI, except for bosses, takes a while to kill.
    Sure, go ahead and switch to hell2 at Paragon 30 with a combat rating of 1100's which is what many players run into. Guess what happens to you then? Oh you're one shottable and mobs take reduced damage. Know what fixes that? Paying money.

    You have to grind hell 2 for gear to use in hell2 but to live in hell 2 well you better be REAL fucking lucky with drops to get that combat rating up if you're not shelling out for gems.

  9. #2409
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I feel like you, and others, haven't actually played the game to experience the mechanics. Instead you argue on principle based on theory and hypothetical.
    Well yeah. Most of it is either "I just don't like mobile!" and the rest is, "Well, youtuber said..."

  10. #2410
    Wow when the cycle starts again and all the whales have to climb back up the PvP ladder, that's when you feel the pain.

  11. #2411
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Sure, go ahead and switch to hell2 at Paragon 30 with a combat rating of 1100's which is what many players run into. Guess what happens to you then? Oh you're one shottable and mobs take reduced damage. Know what fixes that? Paying money.
    Legendary gems are not the only way to upgrade combat rating. Of course paying money gains power. DI is pay to win. That still doesn't change that a free player can do 99% of the game with out paying. It isn't that hard to get gear but yes higher difficulties get harder.
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  12. #2412
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Legendary gems are not the only way to upgrade combat rating. Of course paying money gains power. DI is pay to win. That still doesn't change that a free player can do 99% of the game with out paying. It isn't that hard to get gear but yes higher difficulties get harder.
    Again, there is a difference between a free player doing 99% of the game and a P2W player doing it 10X fucking faster. Sure free player can do 99% of the game, just how long are we talking here? Years? Free player struggles to clear in hell2 to get gear for combat rating while a player who paid to win just 1 shots all the mobs and continues to outpace the free player in levels, gear quality and gear quantity because they kill faster and are less likely to die.

    Have you played the game at Hell2+ yet?

  13. #2413
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Again, there is a difference between a free player doing 99% of the game and a P2W player doing it 10X fucking faster.
    I have never said there isn't a difference between a free and pay player. So I'm not sure you are arguing against. It will take years to level up gems. It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 09:08 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  14. #2414
    The thing is, the Cycle of Strife is a major part of the game and it is all about PvP. And in PvP the P2W element is significant.

  15. #2415
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    Sure just going to be a massive gap in player power as time goes on. Why? Because those free players can't kill as fast, won't live as long and will run into difficulty getting groups for dungeons as the content gets harder. I wouldn't care if the game was soloable but considering dungeons are forced group content it is a different thing entirely.

    For example, if you are sub 1200 rating and you go into a hell 2 dungeon, what happens? You get 1 shot by any boss mechanic. This increases the chance your group fails a dungeon, so why would players invite that in hell 2? As more knowledge is gained by the playerbase you'll see this type of thing happening more and more. But hey they can complete the content! Except they might not be able to get in the door if other players say no. THAT is a disadvantage a P2W player would not encounter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, the Cycle of Strife is a major part of the game and it is all about PvP. And in PvP the P2W element is significant.
    yeah but free players can do 99% of the content! Except you know, not.

  16. #2416
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I have never said there isn't a difference between a free and pay player. So I'm not sure you are arguing against. It will take years to level up gems. It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    what's a "mechanical disadvantage" in your opinion?

    since grinding is limited for F2P as well, while a paying customer can always run more crests, how is that not a disadvantage by design or "mechanics"?

    Not to mention that you can literally not advance after a certain point unless you pay money.
    Since you are ignoring like 99,9% of the game just to write that nonsense, lets just get straight to the point where you have to pay money to awaken your gear.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-20 at 09:25 PM.

  17. #2417
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Sure just going to be a massive gap in player power as time goes on. Why? Because those free players can't kill as fast, won't live as long and will run into difficulty getting groups for dungeons as the content gets harder. I wouldn't care if the game was soloable but considering dungeons are forced group content it is a different thing entirely.
    Well they run into difficulty? Won't they be playing with players their level just as they would if you couldn't buy gear? Because people would always progress faster then others and that gap in power would always exist between players. Strange that it is a fundamental problem now just because people can pay to skip it but it isn't a fundamental problem in almost every game that has power progression.

    I also think you are exaggerating the amount of people that check combat rating, gems, gear, and what not for grouping in DI. Do some do it? Certainly. But vast majority are likely just hitting Yes and letting the random group decide. Again what you describe though exists even with out pay to win. It also doesn't indicate that a free player has the game mechanics deliberatly tuned to punish them over a paying person. People of two equal power levels, one free and one paid, will have the same speed/difficulty in Hell 2. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    what's a "mechanical disadvantage" in your opinion?
    Maybe you should explain what you are looking to counter/attack first. Clearly a paid and free person at the same level of power will have the same speed and ease in clearing content, right? A free player is not punished with different mechanics simply because they didn't pay. They don't have a harder time clearing content. They gap in power is the same that exists between a person that no-lifes the game and a person that plays on their train/bus to/from work. Paying just allows you skip the grind but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression.
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  18. #2418
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    Maybe you should explain what you are looking to counter/attack first. Clearly a paid and free person at the same level of power will have the same speed and ease in clearing content, right? A free player is not punished with different mechanics simply because they didn't pay. They don't have a harder time clearing content. They gap in power is the same that exists between a person that no-lifes the game and a person that plays on their train/bus to/from work. Paying just allows you skip the grind but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression.
    It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
    How can you say it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression when paying literally does change everything about it, lol.
    You are just arguing about pointless words.

    The game's F2P experience is designed around you not being able to do things and about you not getting to enjoy some things.
    It's really that simple.
    It's really pointless to argue about being able to technically run "mythic" in WoW with leveling gear/WQ gear and say "look, you *can* run mythic, just wait until the next expansion". That's technically what you are doing right now.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-20 at 09:38 PM.

  19. #2419
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well they run into difficulty? Won't they be playing with players their level just as they would if you couldn't buy gear? Because people would always progress faster then others and that gap in power would always exist between players. Strange that it is a fundamental problem now just because people can pay to skip it but it isn't a fundamental problem in almost every game that has power progression.

    I also think you are exaggerating the amount of people that check combat rating, gems, gear, and what not for grouping in DI. Do some do it? Certainly. But vast majority are likely just hitting Yes and letting the random group decide. Again what you describe though exists even with out pay to win. It also doesn't indicate that a free player has the game mechanics deliberatly tuned to punish them over a paying person. People of two equal power levels, one free and one paid, will have the same speed/difficulty in Hell 2. Right?
    Again I ask have you seen/done Hell 2 content yet? Because they do NOT have the same speed/difficulty in Hell2. Lo fucking L. A pay 2 win player doesn't even break stride when blowing up a group of mobs when a free to play player will be fighting a group of mobs for 15+ seconds or more while also having to deal with damage from those enemies. The pay 2 win player has already murdered the group, looted and ran off while the other player is winding up some abilities to do a fraction of the mob's health.

    If a free to play player with a low gear rating goes into a dungeon (and trust me, it warns a player when they are doing content below their gear rating) they will get 1 shot by mechanics while the pay 2 win player can stand in said mechanics and keep on going. That is a big difference in mechanics if the free to play player has to dodge everything and the P2W just stands there dishing out damage. But hey what do I know, only witnessed it first hand many times in Hell2 as I was grinding out gear. If you are below the threshold of 1200-1220 or whatever number it has for the content the mobs do more damage to you and you do less to them. Know what bypasses this? Gems baby, the more you paid the more rating you get from those gems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
    Sounds like they haven't even played the game and are trying to tell us that know better how things work in various content levels. It is fucking laughable.

  20. #2420
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
    Instead of admitting that you have no argument you deflect to a scenario that isn't a what if but entirely possible. Because a person can buy a few crests and get a few legendary gems. So they only gain a small amount of power. A free person can even eclipse a person that pays depending on how much they play and how much the other person paid for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Again I ask have you seen/done Hell 2 content yet? Because they do NOT have the same speed/difficulty in Hell2.
    Why do you expect people that don't have equal level of power to have equal level of speed/ease? Lmao. Do you also whine because a fresh level 60 in WoW can't clear Mythic Sepulcher?
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