1. #2401
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    It’s not about self control or lack of it. It’s about designing a game in such a way that everything literally forces you to spend money - while lying and calling the game free.

    Take PoE for example. It’s “free” alright. However, the inventory that is available for free is simply not enough to play the game efficiently. The game is designed - purposely of course - in such a way that you’re either spending real money for extra inventory, or get stuck in a situation where you have to spend 90% of your playtime micromanaging the inventory (maps are a good example).

    It the game free? No, because you essentially unable to enjoy it unless you spend real money. It’s a great game, but still a fraud.
    I liken it to D2in a way. Currently I am over paragon 30, in Hell2, haven't spent anything nor have felt the need to. Those higher star gems are like those uber rare runes and uniques. I could farm forever and may never see one or I could buy them off a third party site to make the progress faster. DI is not unenjoyably as a free payer IMO, as I am having fun.

  2. #2402
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    0. Nothing in DI, except for bosses, takes a while to kill.
    Sure, go ahead and switch to hell2 at Paragon 30 with a combat rating of 1100's which is what many players run into. Guess what happens to you then? Oh you're one shottable and mobs take reduced damage. Know what fixes that? Paying money.

    You have to grind hell 2 for gear to use in hell2 but to live in hell 2 well you better be REAL fucking lucky with drops to get that combat rating up if you're not shelling out for gems.

  3. #2403
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I feel like you, and others, haven't actually played the game to experience the mechanics. Instead you argue on principle based on theory and hypothetical.
    Well yeah. Most of it is either "I just don't like mobile!" and the rest is, "Well, youtuber said..."

  4. #2404
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Wow when the cycle starts again and all the whales have to climb back up the PvP ladder, that's when you feel the pain.

  5. #2405
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Sure, go ahead and switch to hell2 at Paragon 30 with a combat rating of 1100's which is what many players run into. Guess what happens to you then? Oh you're one shottable and mobs take reduced damage. Know what fixes that? Paying money.
    Legendary gems are not the only way to upgrade combat rating. Of course paying money gains power. DI is pay to win. That still doesn't change that a free player can do 99% of the game with out paying. It isn't that hard to get gear but yes higher difficulties get harder.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #2406
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Legendary gems are not the only way to upgrade combat rating. Of course paying money gains power. DI is pay to win. That still doesn't change that a free player can do 99% of the game with out paying. It isn't that hard to get gear but yes higher difficulties get harder.
    Again, there is a difference between a free player doing 99% of the game and a P2W player doing it 10X fucking faster. Sure free player can do 99% of the game, just how long are we talking here? Years? Free player struggles to clear in hell2 to get gear for combat rating while a player who paid to win just 1 shots all the mobs and continues to outpace the free player in levels, gear quality and gear quantity because they kill faster and are less likely to die.

    Have you played the game at Hell2+ yet?

  7. #2407
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Again, there is a difference between a free player doing 99% of the game and a P2W player doing it 10X fucking faster.
    I have never said there isn't a difference between a free and pay player. So I'm not sure you are arguing against. It will take years to level up gems. It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 09:08 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #2408
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    The thing is, the Cycle of Strife is a major part of the game and it is all about PvP. And in PvP the P2W element is significant.

  9. #2409
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    Sure just going to be a massive gap in player power as time goes on. Why? Because those free players can't kill as fast, won't live as long and will run into difficulty getting groups for dungeons as the content gets harder. I wouldn't care if the game was soloable but considering dungeons are forced group content it is a different thing entirely.

    For example, if you are sub 1200 rating and you go into a hell 2 dungeon, what happens? You get 1 shot by any boss mechanic. This increases the chance your group fails a dungeon, so why would players invite that in hell 2? As more knowledge is gained by the playerbase you'll see this type of thing happening more and more. But hey they can complete the content! Except they might not be able to get in the door if other players say no. THAT is a disadvantage a P2W player would not encounter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, the Cycle of Strife is a major part of the game and it is all about PvP. And in PvP the P2W element is significant.
    yeah but free players can do 99% of the content! Except you know, not.

  10. #2410
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I have never said there isn't a difference between a free and pay player. So I'm not sure you are arguing against. It will take years to level up gems. It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    what's a "mechanical disadvantage" in your opinion?

    since grinding is limited for F2P as well, while a paying customer can always run more crests, how is that not a disadvantage by design or "mechanics"?

    Not to mention that you can literally not advance after a certain point unless you pay money.
    Since you are ignoring like 99,9% of the game just to write that nonsense, lets just get straight to the point where you have to pay money to awaken your gear.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-20 at 09:25 PM.

  11. #2411
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Sure just going to be a massive gap in player power as time goes on. Why? Because those free players can't kill as fast, won't live as long and will run into difficulty getting groups for dungeons as the content gets harder. I wouldn't care if the game was soloable but considering dungeons are forced group content it is a different thing entirely.
    Well they run into difficulty? Won't they be playing with players their level just as they would if you couldn't buy gear? Because people would always progress faster then others and that gap in power would always exist between players. Strange that it is a fundamental problem now just because people can pay to skip it but it isn't a fundamental problem in almost every game that has power progression.

    I also think you are exaggerating the amount of people that check combat rating, gems, gear, and what not for grouping in DI. Do some do it? Certainly. But vast majority are likely just hitting Yes and letting the random group decide. Again what you describe though exists even with out pay to win. It also doesn't indicate that a free player has the game mechanics deliberatly tuned to punish them over a paying person. People of two equal power levels, one free and one paid, will have the same speed/difficulty in Hell 2. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    what's a "mechanical disadvantage" in your opinion?
    Maybe you should explain what you are looking to counter/attack first. Clearly a paid and free person at the same level of power will have the same speed and ease in clearing content, right? A free player is not punished with different mechanics simply because they didn't pay. They don't have a harder time clearing content. They gap in power is the same that exists between a person that no-lifes the game and a person that plays on their train/bus to/from work. Paying just allows you skip the grind but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #2412
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    Maybe you should explain what you are looking to counter/attack first. Clearly a paid and free person at the same level of power will have the same speed and ease in clearing content, right? A free player is not punished with different mechanics simply because they didn't pay. They don't have a harder time clearing content. They gap in power is the same that exists between a person that no-lifes the game and a person that plays on their train/bus to/from work. Paying just allows you skip the grind but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression.
    It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
    How can you say it doesn't fundamentally change anything about power gaps and progression when paying literally does change everything about it, lol.
    You are just arguing about pointless words.

    The game's F2P experience is designed around you not being able to do things and about you not getting to enjoy some things.
    It's really that simple.
    It's really pointless to argue about being able to technically run "mythic" in WoW with leveling gear/WQ gear and say "look, you *can* run mythic, just wait until the next expansion". That's technically what you are doing right now.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-20 at 09:38 PM.

  13. #2413
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Well they run into difficulty? Won't they be playing with players their level just as they would if you couldn't buy gear? Because people would always progress faster then others and that gap in power would always exist between players. Strange that it is a fundamental problem now just because people can pay to skip it but it isn't a fundamental problem in almost every game that has power progression.

    I also think you are exaggerating the amount of people that check combat rating, gems, gear, and what not for grouping in DI. Do some do it? Certainly. But vast majority are likely just hitting Yes and letting the random group decide. Again what you describe though exists even with out pay to win. It also doesn't indicate that a free player has the game mechanics deliberatly tuned to punish them over a paying person. People of two equal power levels, one free and one paid, will have the same speed/difficulty in Hell 2. Right?
    Again I ask have you seen/done Hell 2 content yet? Because they do NOT have the same speed/difficulty in Hell2. Lo fucking L. A pay 2 win player doesn't even break stride when blowing up a group of mobs when a free to play player will be fighting a group of mobs for 15+ seconds or more while also having to deal with damage from those enemies. The pay 2 win player has already murdered the group, looted and ran off while the other player is winding up some abilities to do a fraction of the mob's health.

    If a free to play player with a low gear rating goes into a dungeon (and trust me, it warns a player when they are doing content below their gear rating) they will get 1 shot by mechanics while the pay 2 win player can stand in said mechanics and keep on going. That is a big difference in mechanics if the free to play player has to dodge everything and the P2W just stands there dishing out damage. But hey what do I know, only witnessed it first hand many times in Hell2 as I was grinding out gear. If you are below the threshold of 1200-1220 or whatever number it has for the content the mobs do more damage to you and you do less to them. Know what bypasses this? Gems baby, the more you paid the more rating you get from those gems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
    Sounds like they haven't even played the game and are trying to tell us that know better how things work in various content levels. It is fucking laughable.

  14. #2414
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's already pointless to explore this further because it's an unrealistic "what if" scenario, as the game is already designed around for this to never happen.
    Instead of admitting that you have no argument you deflect to a scenario that isn't a what if but entirely possible. Because a person can buy a few crests and get a few legendary gems. So they only gain a small amount of power. A free person can even eclipse a person that pays depending on how much they play and how much the other person paid for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Again I ask have you seen/done Hell 2 content yet? Because they do NOT have the same speed/difficulty in Hell2.
    Why do you expect people that don't have equal level of power to have equal level of speed/ease? Lmao. Do you also whine because a fresh level 60 in WoW can't clear Mythic Sepulcher?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #2415
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Instead of admitting that you have no argument you deflect to a scenario that isn't a what if but entirely possible. Because a person can buy a few crests and get a few legendary gems. So they only gain a small amount of power. A free person can even eclipse a person that pays depending on how much they play and how much the other person paid for.
    Instead of admitting that you are just bullshitting you keep on arguing about pointless stuff no one cares about.
    You are wasting everyones time.

    It's surreal.

    You are facing grind limits, equipment limits, power limits that you don't face when you just spend more money.
    Is this true or is it not?
    If you still believe that this doesn't change how paying players progress differently compared to F2P players, then I don't know what to tell you.
    It's really pointless to discuss this, as mentioned earlier.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-20 at 09:43 PM.

  16. #2416
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Instead of admitting that you are just bullshitting you keep on arguing about pointless stuff no one cares about.
    If no one cares why did you enter the discussion and continue it? All you are doing is insulting and deflecting because you don't actually have anything to counter what I've said. The only one wasting time here is yourself who doesn't want to discuss anything but insists on replying. Strange, right?

    You don't face equipment limits. You don't face power limits. The only grind limit you face is how many Legendary crests you can get. You can still obtain legendary gems with out them but it takes longer. Of course paying players progress faster. They buy power. That has never been something I said and it just shows how much you are wasting everyone's time by arguing something that was never stated. Lmao.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 09:51 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #2417
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You are facing grind limits, equipment limits, power limits that you don't face when you just spend more money.
    Is this true or is it not?
    If you still believe that this doesn't change how paying players progress differently compared to F2P players, then I don't know what to tell you.
    It's really pointless to discuss this, as mentioned earlier.
    They already said that there's a difference. Of course there is. The fuck did you expect, NO difference?

  18. #2418
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    You don't face equipment limits. You don't face power limits. The only grind limit you face is how many Legendary crests you can get. You can still obtain legendary gems with out them but it takes longer. Of course paying players progress faster. They buy power. That has never been something I said and it just shows how much you are wasting everyone's time by arguing something that was never stated. Lmao.
    *yawn*...
    That already means the progression is different between F2P and P2W players.
    And "it just takes longer" is complete bullshit, because as mentioned earlier, you are basically saying that eventually you can run mythic raids with WQ gear in WoW if you just wait long enough. Absolutely pointless to even point this out. Completelely outside the scope and point of the game.
    Obviously completely beside the point that other poster made as well.


    They already said that there's a difference. Of course there is. The fuck did you expect, NO difference?
    Not sure what you want from me.

  19. #2419
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Not sure what you want from me.
    Well you seem to be laboring under this impression that people are saying there's NO difference, or that there was somehow advertised to be no difference or something?

    Of course there's a difference. No one said there wasn't. So it's not clear what you're arguing against here.

  20. #2420
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    And "it just takes longer" is complete bullshit, because as mentioned earlier, you are basically saying that eventually you can run mythic raids with WQ gear in WoW if you just wait long enough.
    So are you ignoring how gear progression works or do you actually not know of item levels in WoW? There is no wall of progression in DI that you need to pay to get over except for the item required for gem resonance. That is the only barrier to a free player in progressing their power level in DI. The speed of progression is different which is never something I denied.

    A pay player skips the natural progression path of the game. A free player does not. When at equal power their ease and ability to clear things is equal. It isn't made harder for a free player to encourage them to pay. It just simply is a progressive step up in difficulty.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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