Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Kyanion]

I actually didn't even know that existed, I am a F2P player. But the discussion we had involved the Legendary Crests. What you mentioned is surely buying power, that's not good, but it's just 2 bundles, it's not gonna be completely gamebreaking with only those after all. You can't buy those bundles and win BGs. In fact, I beat some whales even in BGs. If you wanna beat top F2P omega-tryhard players, 2 bundles isn't gonna do it, you need like 5k resonance, and that's like 10 000+ dollars. Only at those numbers do you really win by paying.

No bro you don’t get to handwave it away after being proven wrong. The fact is you can directly buy power. And your personal anecdotes about beating whales mean jack shit, those that have played the game know what whales do to F2P. Damn people do some crazy mental gymnastics to justify scummy practices.

[Battlebeard]

Who cares where you peaked? It is an absolute fact that you will never have the capacity to catch people who pay, even if they start today. That's like being proud that you pulled out in front of a lamborghini at a stop sign, who hadn't started racing yet.



Your argument is that there "cannot possibly" be a Diablo Immortal that isn't P2W, but what you really mean is that Blizzard would never have made a Diablo Immortal that isn't pay to win, and that's because there are people like you fighting against your own self-interest who allow them to commoditize you to sucker the whales in. The mobile market isn't an intrinsic, intangible thing; there are plenty of games that provide plenty of value. You can buy all of the Infinity Engine games for $10-$15 a pop, you can buy Kotor games for $15 a pop, Square Enix is selling remakes of their best FF games for $15 a pop.. so on so on.

There is absolutely no reason at all that the model they used is the one that they had to use.. besides greed. They could have easily made the best game possible (which is not what you got), then monetised it at a price the market would bare that product at. Instead, they made a product intrinsically based around extracting money from players. There is no intrinsic necessity for games to make the most money humanly possible, even at the cost of the integrity of the game, that the company doesn't decide to instill themselves.

Again; you can enjoy the game to your heart's content, and I don't hold that against you. I don't agree with you, but that's neither here nor there - I don't have to. But the game could easily have succeeded with no pay to win aspects whatsoever, and made a shitload of money. That is a fact. If you argue against that, you argue against your own interest (unless you are a whale).

You forget who the target audience of mobile games are. It's not you and me, it's our moms. It's the guy on the subway who never played a PC game before. It's that construction worker who used to lock us in the closet in high school for being nerds. THOSE people, the non gamers, are the target audience for mobile games, and they DO make up the vast, vast majority of mobile gamers.

And they do not pay 15 dollars for a game, no way in hell. They pick free games and free apps, and if they like them, they buy power in them afterwards. Say what you want about this, how wrong or weird this is, but this is the truth.

My mom would NEVER in her life buy a game for her phone, she said it many times, "nono I would never BUY a game" but she prolly spend many, many hundreds of dollars buying hearts and boosters in Candy Crush, and hasn't thought twice about it. My mom is a traditional mobile gamer. THIS is who they target, and such gamers do not buy games, they do not buy cosmetics, they buy POWER, and they like it.

It's therefore, the only reasonable way to fund a mobile game.

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No bro you don’t get to handwave it away after being proven wrong. The fact is you can directly buy power. And your personal anecdotes about beating whales mean jack shit, those that have played the game know what whales do to F2P. Damn people do some crazy mental gymnastics to justify scummy practices.

You don't understand what direct power means. Direct power would be a direct, guaranteed upgrade. Buying a piece of gear that is better than what you have is direct power. Buying a better gem directly, is direct power. Buying paragon levels would be direct power.

Buying a crest, which the discussion was about is NOT direct power, cause the crest might give you absolutely nothing you need. You buy a chance at an upgrade, not an upgrade.

[RobertoCarlos]

You forget who the target audience of mobile games are. It's not you and me, it's our moms. It's the guy on the subway who never played a PC game before. It's that construction worker who used to lock us in the closet in high school for being nerds. THOSE people, the non gamers, are the target audience for mobile games, and they DO make up the vast, vast majority of mobile gamers.

And they do not pay 15 dollars for a game, no way in hell. They pick free games and free apps, and if they like them, they buy power in them afterwards. Say what you want about this, how wrong or weird this is, but this is the truth.

My mom would NEVER in her life buy a game for her phone, she said it many times, "nono I would never BUY a game" but she prolly spend many, many hundreds of dollars buying hearts and boosters in Candy Crush, and hasn't thought twice about it. My mom is a traditional mobile gamer. THIS is who they target, and such gamers do not buy games, they do not buy cosmetics, they buy POWER, and they like it.

It's therefore, the only reasonable way to fund a mobile game.

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You don't understand what direct power means. Direct power would be a direct, guaranteed upgrade. Buying a piece of gear that is better than what you have is direct power. Buying a better gem directly, is direct power. Buying paragon levels would be direct power.

Buying a crest, which the discussion was about is NOT direct power, cause the crest might give you absolutely nothing you need. You buy a chance at an upgrade, not an upgrade.

And I'm sure blizz lawyers will try argue that semantic so there game isn't deemed as gambling because hey look no loot box here you buy crests! And people not only eat it up but Defend it as if it was the only option. Genius really

[TheRevenantHero]

No, you are the one who is incorrect here.

- Direct power would be buying a 5 star gem directly, or buying a crest that give guaranteed an upgrade to your current gear. What you buy now is a RANDOM gem, IF the gem you get is NOT and upgrade, you are NOT buying power, you are actually buying nothing really. If you have for instance a full set of rank 3 gems, and you buy 100 crests and ALL of them would grant you a level 1 gem (very unlikely scenario but theoretically possible), you would have wasted money, cause you would have gained ZERO power by doing this. When you buy crests, you buy a CHANCE of power, and you will MOST LIKELY get more power, but since it's no guarantee, you aren't technically buying power directly. You ARE wrong here.
- No, the free player will NOT hit a paywall, that is not how the game is designed. Cause just tell me, WHAT would that paywall possibly be? This game has 5 difficulties atm, when you are playing in Hell 5, and clearing that content, you are basically playing the last part of the game. Getting there is fully avaliable as F2P, and in fact inevitable. As you raise in Paragon, the legendary items you get, and set items you get will increase in power depending on your paragon. And we know you cannot speed up paragon grinds, F2P players are keeping up with P2W. Even if you never ever upgrade your gems, you will still keep up with paragon, gears, legendaries for upgrading mats etc, and will still be able to enjoy 100% of the game at the same time as P2W. You will not reach top 5 on the leaderboard, but that's not really content anyway. You will still get full access to all dungeons, world zones etc on the highest difficulty without problems. There is NO paywall at all, only top on leaderboard is exclusive, you ARE wrong again.
- I know it's banned for gambling, but that is a wrongful decision. This isn't more gambling than Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft or ANY game with free gambling elements, in other words, RNG in them. If you take away P2W completely, this game would STILL have the same gambling system, as Elder Rifts, even with free Crests, is still gambling, and if that should be banned, then D3 etc should be banned too. The Crests you buy doesn't make it more Gambling, it just allows you to gamble MORE OFTEN, and it's a big difference. Banning paid crests but not banning free crests, is like going to Vegas and banning all rich guys from playing, it's hypocritical.

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I actually didn't even know that existed, I am a F2P player. But the discussion we had involved the Legendary Crests. What you mentioned is surely buying power, that's not good, but it's just 2 bundles, it's not gonna be completely gamebreaking with only those after all. You can't buy those bundles and win BGs. In fact, I beat some whales even in BGs. If you wanna beat top F2P omega-tryhard players, 2 bundles isn't gonna do it, you need like 5k resonance, and that's like 10 000+ dollars. Only at those numbers do you really win by paying.

Holy fucking shit your delusional view of this is actually getting really sad. Everything you just said is objectively wrong. Literally everything. Diablo 3 and WoW don't offer paid loot boxes that can contain player power like D:I does. THAT'S WHY IT'S A PREDATORY GAMBLING SCHEME WHICH LED TO THE GAME GETTING BANNED. It's like you live in some kind of alternate reality or something.

[Battlebeard]

I think so many, many people have not understood mobile gaming. Mobile game is vastly different from PC or Console gaming, with completely differnent styles of the games and completely different target audience. We who come from a gaming background, have trouble understanding the mobile industry, and I had that too in the beginning, and some high profile gamers, like Asmongold, still hasn't understood it.

You see, mobile gaming, is not for gamers. It's a completely different industry. It's target audience is our moms, and like casual every day people who never really touched a video game. These people don't see mobile gaming as gaming, they look at it only as a way to kill time, just like they do with like WordFeud or Instagram. They have no passion or interest in gaming, they just want an activity to do.

They want a smooth experience with their apps, they wanna keep scrolling and swiping. And for their games, they do not want any challenge, any interuptions. They wanna have some fun with Candy Crush, but when they get stuck, they wanna skip it and move on.

Many seem to think P2W practises is a scheme to catch people, but you forget, that most mobile "gamers" WANT this. They in fact DEMAND it. They wouldn't want a free game that is fully accessible and fair. Cause they don't wanna get stuck. They don't wanna stop scrolling. They WANT a way to skip content they don't like. That is how the mobile industry works, and that is fine.

PC gamers might not understand it, but mobile "gamers" are not morons, they are not stupid, they simply have completely different view on gaming and on the world than we do. We get baffled, nearly shocked to see people wanting P2W, but I promise you, they get equally shocked to see what we do. If I tried to explain World of Warcraft to my mom, she would shake her head, and be completely baffled how anyone could ever do the same boss over and over and over. Wiping or failing in a game, is a concept she will never understand or accept, she would just skip that part, cause it's boring and slow and disrupting.

If a big company would make a game completely free, out of kindness of their hearts, mobile gamers would still DEMAND a P2W option for it, and get outraged if there wasn't one. That's how it works, that's how it's always gonna work, cause these mobile gamers are never gonna become "true gamers". My mom might live 40 years more, and she might play mobile games for 40 years more, but she will NEVER understand "normal" gaming or have ANY interest for it as long as she lives, and this is the case for millions and millions of mobile gamers. PC/Console industry is not for them. Mobile gaming industry is not for us. Mobile gaming is closer related to social media and any other mobile app than PC/console games.

You cannot view Diablo Immortal with the eyes of a PC/Console gamer, you have to view it with the eyes of a mobile gamer to understand. I can do that, but it took some time to understand exactly how the industries differ. P2W is always gonna be in mobile gaming, cause it's always gonna be a demand for it. And there is nothing wrong with that, there is nothing wrong with our moms and everyone else who is a mobile gamer. We are simply into 2 completely different industries.

[RobertoCarlos]

I think so many, many people have not understood mobile gaming. Mobile game is vastly different from PC or Console gaming, with completely differnent styles of the games and completely different target audience. We who come from a gaming background, have trouble understanding the mobile industry, and I had that too in the beginning, and some high profile gamers, like Asmongold, still hasn't understood it.

You see, mobile gaming, is not for gamers. It's a completely different industry. It's target audience is our moms, and like casual every day people who never really touched a video game. These people don't see mobile gaming as gaming, they look at it only as a way to kill time, just like they do with like WordFeud or Instagram. They have no passion or interest in gaming, they just want an activity to do.

They want a smooth experience with their apps, they wanna keep scrolling and swiping. And for their games, they do not want any challenge, any interuptions. They wanna have some fun with Candy Crush, but when they get stuck, they wanna skip it and move on.

Many seem to think P2W practises is a scheme to catch people, but you forget, that most mobile "gamers" WANT this. They in fact DEMAND it. They wouldn't want a free game that is fully accessible and fair. Cause they don't wanna get stuck. They don't wanna stop scrolling. They WANT a way to skip content they don't like. That is how the mobile industry works, and that is fine.

PC gamers might not understand it, but mobile "gamers" are not morons, they are not stupid, they simply have completely different view on gaming and on the world than we do. We get baffled, nearly shocked to see people wanting P2W, but I promise you, they get equally shocked to see what we do. If I tried to explain World of Warcraft to my mom, she would shake her head, and be completely baffled how anyone could ever do the same boss over and over and over. Wiping or failing in a game, is a concept she will never understand or accept, she would just skip that part, cause it's boring and slow and disrupting.

If a big company would make a game completely free, out of kindness of their hearts, mobile gamers would still DEMAND a P2W option for it, and get outraged if there wasn't one. That's how it works, that's how it's always gonna work, cause these mobile gamers are never gonna become "true gamers". My mom might live 40 years more, and she might play mobile games for 40 years more, but she will NEVER understand "normal" gaming or have ANY interest for it as long as she lives, and this is the case for millions and millions of mobile gamers. PC/Console industry is not for them. Mobile gaming industry is not for us. Mobile gaming is closer related to social media and any other mobile app than PC/console games.

You cannot view Diablo Immortal with the eyes of a PC/Console gamer, you have to view it with the eyes of a mobile gamer to understand. I can do that, but it took some time to understand exactly how the industries differ. P2W is always gonna be in mobile gaming, cause it's always gonna be a demand for it. And there is nothing wrong with that, there is nothing wrong with our moms and everyone else who is a mobile gamer. We are simply into 2 completely different industries.

You've heard of grandfather principle right? I dunno where this attitude of "video game companies need to do this to survive because soccer mom's don't buy diablo but they are ok buying gems". Its Stockholm syndrome logic

[Kyanion]

You don't understand what direct power means. Direct power would be a direct, guaranteed upgrade. Buying a piece of gear that is better than what you have is direct power. Buying a better gem directly, is direct power. Buying paragon levels would be direct power.

Buying a crest, which the discussion was about is NOT direct power, cause the crest might give you absolutely nothing you need. You buy a chance at an upgrade, not an upgrade.

Dude you said you can’t buy direct power on the cash shop. I proved that it is a thing. Do not try and handwave it away.

Not even going to bother on how wrong you are on the rest of your drivel.

[Battlebeard]

Holy fucking shit your delusional view of this is actually getting really sad. Everything you just said is objectively wrong. Literally everything. Diablo 3 and WoW don't offer paid loot boxes that can contain player power like D:I does. THAT'S WHY IT'S A PREDATORY GAMBLING SCHEME WHICH LED TO THE GAME GETTING BANNED. It's like you live in some kind of alternate reality or something.

It's hopeless to talk to you, you are objectively wrong on every point. I have provided very clear examples that prove that I am right. But against my own judgement, I try one more time with more relatable examples.

About buying power, I have a car example:

You wanna buy a new car. You have a very mediocre car. An exentric guy comes up to you and give you a deal. For a 1000 dollars, you get to pick 1 out of 5 cars, however each car is hidden behind a big sheet, so you don't know which car is behind which sheet. One of the cars, is a super nice brand new Porche, worth millions, the top notch car, an obvious upgrade to your mediocre car. The other 4 cars are complete garbage, even worse than the car you currently own. You have a 20% chance of getting a better car and a 80% chance of getting a worse one. You aren't buying a better car, you are buying a CHANCE at a better car. You can still salvage some scrap metal from the garbage cars and not end up completely empty handed, but you obviously want the nice car.

Do you understand this example? In Diablo Immortal, the nice car is the 5 star gem, the crap cars are the 1 star gems. You buy a CHANCE at getting the 5 star gem which is an upgrade just like the nice car. But you are more likely to get get a crappy 1 star gem, just like you are more likely to get one of the crappier cars.

So by taking the 1000 dollar deal with the exentric guy, you are NOT buying a better car, you are buying a CHANCE for a better car. Just like you don't buy a better gem, you buy a CHANCE for a better gem in Diablo.

Do you understand what I mean now? Please tell me you get it, I could not make it more clear if I tried. I tried being as clear as I possibly can.

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You've heard of grandfather principle right? I dunno where this attitude of "video game companies need to do this to survive because soccer mom's don't buy diablo but they are ok buying gems". Its Stockholm syndrome logic

Call it what you want, you cannot ignore the fact that the mobile game industry is larger than the PC + console industries put together and that the majority of players are people like I mentioned. You cannot ignore reality even if you don't like it.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's hopeless to talk to you, you are objectively wrong on every point. I have provided very clear examples that prove that I am right. But against my own judgement, I try one more time with more relatable examples.

About buying power, I have a car example:

You wanna buy a new car. You have a very mediocre car. An exentric guy comes up to you and give you a deal. For a 1000 dollars, you get to pick 1 out of 5 cars, however each car is hidden behind a big sheet, so you don't know which car is behind which sheet. One of the cars, is a super nice brand new Porche, worth millions, the top notch car, an obvious upgrade to your mediocre car. The other 4 cars are complete garbage, even worse than the car you currently own. You have a 20% chance of getting a better car and a 80% chance of getting a worse one. You aren't buying a better car, you are buying a CHANCE at a better car. You can still salvage some scrap metal from the garbage cars and not end up completely empty handed, but you obviously want the nice car.

Do you understand this example? In Diablo Immortal, the nice car is the 5 star gem, the crap cars are the 1 star gems. You buy a CHANCE at getting the 5 star gem which is an upgrade just like the nice car. But you are more likely to get get a crappy 1 star gem, just like you are more likely to get one of the crappier cars.

So by taking the 1000 dollar deal with the exentric guy, you are NOT buying a better car, you are buying a CHANCE for a better car. Just like you don't buy a better gem, you buy a CHANCE for a better gem in Diablo.

Do you understand what I mean now? Please tell me you get it, I could not make it more clear if I tried. I tried being as clear as I possibly can.

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Call it what you want, you cannot ignore the fact that the mobile game industry is larger than the PC + console industries put together and that the majority of players are people like I mentioned. You cannot ignore reality even if you don't like it.

AND THAT'S WHY IT'S GAMBLING. HOLY FUCKING SHIT, DUDE. Buying a loot box that provides player power with only a chance of getting more powerful stuff is literally gambling. It's a perfect example. Hilarious how you say it's hopeless to talk to me when you're the one who has been told by numerous people how and why it's gambling but refuse to listen. The only one objectively wrong is you.

[RobertoCarlos]

It's hopeless to talk to you, you are objectively wrong on every point. I have provided very clear examples that prove that I am right. But against my own judgement, I try one more time with more relatable examples.

About buying power, I have a car example:

You wanna buy a new car. You have a very mediocre car. An exentric guy comes up to you and give you a deal. For a 1000 dollars, you get to pick 1 out of 5 cars, however each car is hidden behind a big sheet, so you don't know which car is behind which sheet. One of the cars, is a super nice brand new Porche, worth millions, the top notch car, an obvious upgrade to your mediocre car. The other 4 cars are complete garbage, even worse than the car you currently own. You have a 20% chance of getting a better car and a 80% chance of getting a worse one. You aren't buying a better car, you are buying a CHANCE at a better car. You can still salvage some scrap metal from the garbage cars and not end up completely empty handed, but you obviously want the nice car.

Do you understand this example? In Diablo Immortal, the nice car is the 5 star gem, the crap cars are the 1 star gems. You buy a CHANCE at getting the 5 star gem which is an upgrade just like the nice car. But you are more likely to get get a crappy 1 star gem, just like you are more likely to get one of the crappier cars.

So by taking the 1000 dollar deal with the exentric guy, you are NOT buying a better car, you are buying a CHANCE for a better car. Just like you don't buy a better gem, you buy a CHANCE for a better gem in Diablo.

Do you understand what I mean now? Please tell me you get it, I could not make it more clear if I tried. I tried being as clear as I possibly can.

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Call it what you want, you cannot ignore the fact that the mobile game industry is larger than the PC + console industries put together and that the majority of players are people like I mentioned. You cannot ignore reality even if you don't like it.

even if you were right it should not cost over half a mill to fully invest in your character.

And there should not be bundles that can cost over $100 dollars on a kids game when they are not even buying anything tangible other than arbitrary resources the game uses to gate you.

But its all in the game right? Pity the fool who pays for it?

I suppose you would be ok with me selling drugs at a recovery drug and alcohol facility right? People shouldn't be junkies its all in the game right.

[Battlebeard]

AND THAT'S WHY IT'S GAMBLING. HOLY FUCKING SHIT, DUDE. Buying a loot box that provides player power with only a chance of getting more powerful stuff is literally gambling. It's a perfect example. Hilarious how you say it's hopeless to talk to me when you're the one who has been told by numerous people how and why it's gambling but refuse to listen. The only one objectively wrong is you.

Can you at least now start to agree, you don't buy DIRECT power with the crests, as you can clearly see, you buy a CHANCE at it, which is indirect power as you eventually gonna get something better by buying more, but no guarantees, so it's not direct. If we debunk that, I was right at point 1. Diablo Immortal and almost every single video game has FREE gambling (I normally call it RNG but w/e) Now I'm gonna explain, why it's NOT EXCLUSIVELY PAID GAMBLING.

Another car example, about gambling!

Another exentric guy runs a gambling business. This guy is omega rich and likes giving out free cars, just accept he is a bit strange. Anyway, he runs a business like this:

He has 5 cars behind 5 sheets, one is good, four is awful. He is so rich, he allows anyone who has a so called Car-Token, to pick a car. This car-token is handed out by the rich guy himself, he gives everyone who wants one a free car-token a month, what a nice guy. I'm sure you get by now that the Car-token represent a Free Legendary Crest.

Anyway, people play, some get the good car, most get the bad car, he run his gambling business, no one pays a dime to play. They are limited to play once a month, but still it's free and you get a car monthly, a good deal.

One day, the rich guy start to realize, he's no longer very rich, but he still wanna do his gambling business. So he start to sell Car-tokens in adition to the free he gives away. The car-token he sell, lets call it Car-token 2, is IDENTICAL to the free one. Car-token 2 doesn't give an increased chance of getting the nice car, nor does it have any other unique effect. Now obviously, car-token 2 represent the paid store legendary crest.

Steve buys 5 car-token 2 and starts using them. It doesn't guarantee him the nice car, after each car he buy, he adds another one and shuffle them, so Steve just get 5 crap cars.

So, adding a paid car-token doesn't really change the game at all. You don't get better odds at getting the new car, it's still one in five (20%) NOR do you get a better car IF you get the nice one. Car-token 2 doesn't give nicer prices than car-token 1, ALL it does, is allowing people to gamble MORE OFTEN.

Same of course with Diablo. A paid legendary crest doesn't give better gems than a free one, it just allows you to run more rifts. The ODDS may increase of getting a good one, but the CHANCE will remain the same. And if you google "Difference between odds and chance" you can get it more fully explained.

So by allowing people to buy legendary crests, it doesn't really have ANY affect on the gambling aspect. It doesn't add MORE gambling to the game, it doesn't increase your chances, it doesn't offer better loot.

If you are against gambling in games, and if you hate the idea of Car-token 2, you also HAVE to hate the idea of the free car-token 1, because both of them works exactly the same way. FREE GAMBLING and PAID GAMBLING are THE SAME, you either like both, or hate both.

Hence the argument to say that you pay to gamble in Diablo doesn't work. The gambling is there EVEN FOR FREE players, and buy buying more crests, it doesn't increase your chances, just your odds. Again, google the difference, and that is a HUGE difference.

Now if you are against BOTH types of gambling, that is fine, I respect that, but you cannot be against only one of them, that is hypocritical because there is no exclusive paid gambling.

[Pyrans]

You clearly haven't if you think D:I is a good game. Lie to yourself as much as you want but don't fucking lie to me. AND DID YOU REALLY JUST SAY DIABLO 2 DIDN'T OFFER MUCH ENDGAME?!

"You like something I don't therefore your wrong" guess I'm also lying because I've played a lot of D2&3 and still like DI.

And what endgame does D2 actually have? You grind specific areas or bosses hoping to get the right pieces and eventually maybe you can try ubers, but how many people have even entered an uber fight without single player cheats. Runewords, again grinding specific bosses until your eyes bleed. Or maybe you consider builds to be endgame, but it wasn't quick to make many changes as you were limited to 3 resets from difficulties or item drops from bosses unless those were a mod thing.

[Battlebeard]

even if you were right it should not cost over half a mill to fully invest in your character.

And there should not be bundles that can cost over $100 dollars on a kids game when they are not even buying anything tangible other than arbitrary resources the game uses to gate you.

But its all in the game right? Pity the fool who pays for it?

I suppose you would be ok with me selling drugs at a recovery drug and alcohol facility right? People shouldn't be junkies its all in the game right.

I mean dude, we are not in kindergarten, we don't all stand together and sing kumbaya. The world doesn't work like that. The world is tough, and if you are naive and think we should all be nice, you are gonna get pushed around.

If kids buy these bundles, you should blame the parents. They are NOT exclusively targeted to kids, there is nothing in the marketing in the shop that adress only children. If you are a child, below 18 years old, it's your parents resonsibility to keep track of their kids actions and control their finances. Parents have full power over their children, and until they turn 18, the childs money is technically not their money, it's their parents money, they could take it all back if they wanted to, hence they are fully responsible over their childs economy. If parents are lazy or have poor judgement, it cannot be blamed on the companies who run their business.

People call it predatory, but if you are an adult, you can and should see it, and if you still wanna buy things thats fine. I DO believe it's predatory but I do not believe it's aimed at children, so any kid who ruin themselves (technically ruin their parents) is the parents fault. It's so easy to blame the companies instead of taking resonsibility over your life or being a good parent. And adults who ruin themselves, well, tough luck, that is their problem. If they are in a position to own a phone or a PC, they already have a significally better life than most people on the planet and SHOULD have both the education and common knowledge to not fall for this.

People have this idea that many people have ruined themselves and are tricked, but I am certain the vast majority know what Blizzard are doing and STILL chose to buy, and that is called freedom, something we should value in the west, it's what we fight for and stand for. Belgium and the Netherlands is going against what I stand for, freedom. Freedom INCLUDES the right to make bad decisions.

You mention alcohol, and no, I don't blame alcoholics on the alcohol industry. Maybe I come off as coldhearted, but I am a a realist, and I survive very well in the real world, cause I live in the real world.

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"You like something I don't therefore your wrong" guess I'm also lying because I've played a lot of D2&3 and still like DI.

And what endgame does D2 actually have? You grind specific areas or bosses hoping to get the right pieces and eventually maybe you can try ubers, but how many people have even entered an uber fight without single player cheats. Runewords, again grinding specific bosses until your eyes bleed. Or maybe you consider builds to be endgame, but it wasn't quick to make many changes as you were limited to 3 resets from difficulties or item drops from bosses unless those were a mod thing.

Yeah I think the endgame of D2 was horrible, so depending on what runes and items you had, it was either a boring repetitive grind of like ONLY Baal, or you were too bad to even get anywhere. No thank you.

[TheRevenantHero]

Can you at least now start to agree, you don't buy DIRECT power with the crests, as you can clearly see, you buy a CHANCE at it, which is indirect power as you eventually gonna get something better by buying more, but no guarantees, so it's not direct. If we debunk that, I was right at point 1. Diablo Immortal and almost every single video game has FREE gambling (I normally call it RNG but w/e) Now I'm gonna explain, why it's NOT EXCLUSIVELY PAID GAMBLING.

Another car example, about gambling!

Another exentric guy runs a gambling business. This guy is omega rich and likes giving out free cars, just accept he is a bit strange. Anyway, he runs a business like this:

He has 5 cars behind 5 sheets, one is good, four is awful. He is so rich, he allows anyone who has a so called Car-Token, to pick a car. This car-token is handed out by the rich guy himself, he gives everyone who wants one a free car-token a month, what a nice guy. I'm sure you get by now that the Car-token represent a Free Legendary Crest.

Anyway, people play, some get the good car, most get the bad car, he run his gambling business, no one pays a dime to play. They are limited to play once a month, but still it's free and you get a car monthly, a good deal.

One day, the rich guy start to realize, he's no longer very rich, but he still wanna do his gambling business. So he start to sell Car-tokens in adition to the free he gives away. The car-token he sell, lets call it Car-token 2, is IDENTICAL to the free one. Car-token 2 doesn't give an increased chance of getting the nice car, nor does it have any other unique effect. Now obviously, car-token 2 represent the paid store legendary crest.

Steve buys 5 car-token 2 and starts using them. It doesn't guarantee him the nice car, after each car he buy, he adds another one and shuffle them, so Steve just get 5 crap cars.

So, adding a paid car-token doesn't really change the game at all. You don't get better odds at getting the new car, it's still one in five (20%) NOR do you get a better car IF you get the nice one. Car-token 2 doesn't give nicer prices than car-token 1, ALL it does, is allowing people to gamble MORE OFTEN.

Same of course with Diablo. A paid legendary crest doesn't give better gems than a free one, it just allows you to run more rifts. The ODDS may increase of getting a good one, but the CHANCE will remain the same. And if you google "Difference between odds and chance" you can get it more fully explained.

So by allowing people to buy legendary crests, it doesn't really have ANY affect on the gambling aspect. It doesn't add MORE gambling to the game, it doesn't increase your chances, it doesn't offer better loot.

If you are against gambling in games, and if you hate the idea of Car-token 2, you also HAVE to hate the idea of the free car-token 1, because both of them works exactly the same way. FREE GAMBLING and PAID GAMBLING are THE SAME, you either like both, or hate both.

Hence the argument to say that you pay to gamble in Diablo doesn't work. The gambling is there EVEN FOR FREE players, and buy buying more crests, it doesn't increase your chances, just your odds. Again, google the difference, and that is a HUGE difference.

Now if you are against BOTH types of gambling, that is fine, I respect that, but you cannot be against only one of them, that is hypocritical because there is no exclusive paid gambling.

How dense can you possibly be? THE REASON IT'S GAMBLING IS BECAUSE YOU ARE SPENDING MONEY FOR A GAME OF CHANCE. It doesn't fucking matter what can be gained by f2p players. That doesn't change the fact that spending money for gear and player power is gambling, by definition. Do I need to post the definition of gambling again? Anything you get for free isn't gambling. BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SPENDING MONEY ON IT. But as soon as you exchange money for a game of chance, it becomes gambling. Holy fucking shit, dude.

[RobertoCarlos]

Yeah I think the endgame of D2 was horrible, so depending on what runes and items you had, it was either a boring repetitive grind of like ONLY Baal, or you were too bad to even get anywhere. No thank you.

The end game is no different to Diablo immortal. Instead with Diablo Immortal you would have to pay for a resource to go through baals gate and hope for that rune/item to drop.

[Battlebeard]

How dense can you possibly be? THE REASON IT'S GAMBLING IS BECAUSE YOU ARE SPENDING MONEY FOR A GAME OF CHANCE. It doesn't fucking matter what can be gained by f2p players. That doesn't change the fact that spending money for gear and player power is gambling, by definition. Do I need to post the definition of gambling again? Anything you get for free isn't gambling. BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SPENDING MONEY ON IT. But as soon as you exchange money for a game of chance, it becomes gambling. Holy fucking shit, dude.

If you go to lets say Vegas, and they have a Roulette table, they say you can play for free, yet win money. Do you seriously not consider this gambling? You DO NOT have to pay to gamble. Gamble means RNG, it means doing something with a random outcome!

Elder Rifts with free crest is a free roulette table, still gambling.
Elder Rifts with paid crest is a paid roulette table, also gambling.

So gambling exist in DI regardless if you pay for it or not. You cannot hate a paid roulette table without hating the free one too if you hate gambling.

[TheRevenantHero]

If you go to lets say Vegas, and they have a Roulette table, they say you can play for free, yet win money. Do you seriously not consider this gambling? You DO NOT have to pay to gamble. Gamble means RNG, it means doing something with a random outcome!

Elder Rifts with free crest is a free roulette table, still gambling.
Elder Rifts with paid crest is a paid roulette table, also gambling.

So gambling exist in DI regardless if you pay for it or not. You cannot hate a paid roulette table without hating the free one too if you hate gambling.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gamble

So....no. It's not gambling BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EXCHANGE OF MONEY.

"to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance:". Look at the definition. Read it nice and slow this time if you need to.

[Delekii]

If you go to lets say Vegas, and they have a Roulette table, they say you can play for free, yet win money. Do you seriously not consider this gambling? You DO NOT have to pay to gamble. Gamble means RNG, it means doing something with a random outcome!

Elder Rifts with free crest is a free roulette table, still gambling.
Elder Rifts with paid crest is a paid roulette table, also gambling.

So gambling exist in DI regardless if you pay for it or not. You cannot hate a paid roulette table without hating the free one too if you hate gambling.

Both are gambling; both are not equal. Again, to conflate the two is an intellectually dishonest endeavour.

Everyone present in the conversation, including you, knows exactly what is meant in the context. What you are doing is like comparing stealing a base in baseball to stealing $1billion from the USA government. Both are stealing, but are in no way comparable.

You can consider it gambling despite it being free because the crests have a value of sorts, in terms of what they potentially represent. But they have no true value beyond that (in the way that bought crests represent the money paid for them).

What you are doing is arguing semantics to avoid the actual topic. How about you stop trying to hold up the dictionary as a shield and address the issues actually present with a practice incentivising throwing money at an unknown outcome.

I don't even care if you call it gambling or not, the practice doesn't change. It doesn't become less bad if you start calling it "money-based-rng-lottery" or "loot box" or any other skirting of the meaning.

[Battlebeard]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gamble

So....no. It's not gambling BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EXCHANGE OF MONEY.

"to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance:". Look at the definition. Read it nice and slow this time if you need to.

I did, I looked at all definitions and you are wrong again, even by the things you linked.

Multiple points speak of money OR other things of value. That includes anthing you value, beyond materialistic things. Your time is of value and is a stake hence I can gamble for free moneywise and just risk my time, still gambling. Dignity is also of value to many, you can bet your dignity as you might feel embarassed if you lose.

You said it yourself, money OR other values, proving yourself you can gamble for free moneywise.

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Both are gambling; both are not equal. Again, to conflate the two is an intellectually dishonest endeavour.

Everyone present in the conversation, including you, knows exactly what is meant in the context. What you are doing is like comparing stealing a base in baseball to stealing $1billion from the USA government. Both are stealing, but are in no way comparable.

You can consider it gambling despite it being free because the crests have a value of sorts, in terms of what they potentially represent. But they have no true value beyond that (in the way that bought crests represent the money paid for them).

What you are doing is arguing semantics to avoid the actual topic. How about you stop trying to hold up the dictionary as a shield and address the issues actually present with a practice incentivising throwing money at an unknown outcome.

I don't even care if you call it gambling or not, the practice doesn't change. It doesn't become less bad if you start calling it "money-based-rng-lottery" or "loot box" or any other skirting of the meaning.

I think gambling is fine. No one force you to do it and its quite frankly a very fun activity as well. Had some of the best days of my life in Vegas.

I am upset this game get so much hate. It’s not really that much worse than most mobile games. Its more money but this game is also much much better and bigger and cost more to make than any mobile game released in the past, so its natural.

[TheRevenantHero]

I did, I looked at all definitions and you are wrong again, even by the things you linked.

Multiple points speak of money OR other things of value. That includes anthing you value, beyond materialistic things. Your time is of value and is a stake hence I can gamble for free moneywise and just risk my time, still gambling. Dignity is also of value to many, you can bet your dignity as you might feel embarassed if you lose.

You said it yourself, money OR other values, proving yourself you can gamble for free moneywise.

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I think gambling is fine. No one force you to do it and its quite frankly a very fun activity as well. Had some of the best days of my life in Vegas.

I am upset this game get so much hate. It’s not really that much worse than most mobile games. Its more money but this game is also much much better and bigger and cost more to make than any mobile game released in the past, so its natural.

No I'm not wrong. What the actual fuck are you talking about? IF THE LOOTBOXES ARE FREE, THAT MEANS NOTHING OF VALUE WAS PUT AT STAKE AND THEREFORE ISN'T GAMBLING. Do you at least stretch before all this insane mental gymnastics? Saying time is something of value in relation to gambling is so fucking asinine. Same goes for dignity. You are literally trying to redefine the word gambling just because you refuse to admit you're wrong.