Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Kyanion]

You make it sound like people actually spend that much. I havent heard a single story of people ruining themselves. Only ever heard of streamers spending alot and they can afford it.

You seem to think people are stupid and dall for this, I doubt anyone really do.

Just because you've not heard of someone making some very bad choices in spending way too much and ruining their lives does not mean that shit does not happen. Not all stories like this make the news, sometimes they are just on forums, sometimes you never learn of it.

Gambling ruins lives, look at Las Vegas, think that is all just people who can 'afford it' out there? People spend money they don't have all the time, sadly it is usually on things like casinos, lotteries and other risky things but it sure as hell happens in gacha games and P2W models in games.

You think people don't fall for these scummy tactics mobile games employ? You really are not this naïve are you? Companies do this shit because it works. Many people can afford what they spend but there are people out there who cannot afford it but do it anyways. Does that mean there needs to be tighter regulations on mobile games and gambling in general? That is a debate for somewhere else, but do not pretend that shit never happens.

[Ghost of Cow]

You make it sound like people actually spend that much. I havent heard a single story of people ruining themselves. Only ever heard of streamers spending alot and they can afford it.

You seem to think people are stupid and dall for this, I doubt anyone really do.

People definitely have spent too much on games, but people have spent "too much" on a lot of things so it's kind of a silly argument to me. Buying too many lootboxes isn't functionally different than spending too much on a car, on Beanie Babies, on a TV, on stuff from a home shopping network, whatever. Yet when someone blows their paycheck on a big screen TV people say, "You idiot." but if they spent that paycheck in Diablo those same people say, "Oh you poor, precious baby."

It's like the Gordon Ramsay meme given life!

And no, don't break out the tired lines about how, "But they use MIND TRICKS in Diablo to make you want things!!!" as if every salesperson and marketing department in history isn't spending millions on figuring out the exact message/impressions/visuals/etc will get you to want their product.

Pretty much the only time I'm interested in regulation of financial transactions is when one party is being unreasonably/fraudulently deceived as to what's being purchased. (And no, saying "You could win X" in a random selection of outcomes isn't deceit.)

[Popastique]

People definitely have spent too much on games, but people have spent "too much" on a lot of things so it's kind of a silly argument to me. Buying too many lootboxes isn't functionally different than spending too much on a car, on Beanie Babies, on a TV, on stuff from a home shopping network, whatever. Yet when someone blows their paycheck on a big screen TV people say, "You idiot." but if they spent that paycheck in Diablo those same people say, "Oh you poor, precious baby."

It's like the Gordon Ramsay meme given life!

And no, don't break out the tired lines about how, "But they use MIND TRICKS in Diablo to make you want things!!!" as if every salesperson and marketing department in history isn't spending millions on figuring out the exact message/impressions/visuals/etc will get you to want their product.

Pretty much the only time I'm interested in regulation of financial transactions is when one party is being unreasonably/fraudulently deceived as to what's being purchased. (And no, saying "You could win X" in a random selection of outcomes isn't deceit.)

How dare you forget about kids who fall victim to predatory practices and become DI addicts

[Battlebeard]

Just because you've not heard of someone making some very bad choices in spending way too much and ruining their lives does not mean that shit does not happen. Not all stories like this make the news, sometimes they are just on forums, sometimes you never learn of it.

Gambling ruins lives, look at Las Vegas, think that is all just people who can 'afford it' out there? People spend money they don't have all the time, sadly it is usually on things like casinos, lotteries and other risky things but it sure as hell happens in gacha games and P2W models in games.

You think people don't fall for these scummy tactics mobile games employ? You really are not this naïve are you? Companies do this shit because it works. Many people can afford what they spend but there are people out there who cannot afford it but do it anyways. Does that mean there needs to be tighter regulations on mobile games and gambling in general? That is a debate for somewhere else, but do not pretend that shit never happens.

Well it’s also their lives, their money, their choice. That’s called freedom

[Battlebeard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-DGTBZU14

Damn 3 years old and it's still incredibly relevant, if not more accurate as the days tick forward (if you hadn't watched already).

When the video start with calling Addiction a disease, you instantly lost me. Addiction, whether it's gambling addiction or alhoholism is NOT a disease. Cancer is a disease, Covid is a disease, ALS is a disease.

Calling addiction a disease is a cheap way of trying to shift responsibility from themselves cause people who say it are too lazy to take charge of their own life.

You will NEVER convince me otherwise. Hence, I will never feel sorry for those who "fall for" these practises, cause I don't believe they take advantage of sick or weak people, only stupid and lazy people, and stupid and lazy people get no empathy for me.

This is prolly why I disagree with so many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Azmoden]

Addiction, whether it's gambling addiction or alhoholism is NOT a disease.
Calling addiction a disease is a cheap way of trying to shift responsibility from themselves cause people who say it are too lazy to take charge of their own life.

You will NEVER convince me otherwise. Hence, I will never feel sorry for those who "fall for" these practises, cause I don't believe they take advantage of sick or weak people, only stupid and lazy people, and stupid and lazy people get no empathy for me.

The DSM-V and every psychologist/psychiatrist/mental health professional worth their salt disagrees with you, but keep on living in you made-up reality, since it seems to suit your agenda...

[RobertoCarlos]

Addiction isn't limited to humans either. But yeah totally not an illness

[Battlebeard]

https://www.britannica.com/science/disease



https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/06/roots



Okay so why are you still here then? You can't be convinced otherwise, so you aren't here for discussion. "130 IQ" well spent buddy.

You can link all you want, that "science" will never convince me, and if you ever known anyone dying of actual diseases like cancer, you wouldn't be so disrespectful to even compare it to real diseases.

They even made an entire South Park episode of this (Bloody Mary), where the entire episode is about alcoholism is not a disease and that alcoholics just need discipline, it's brilliant and very true, and obviously many people (smart people) agree with me here.

I'm here cause I get furious when haters judge a fantastic game, it's ignorant.

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The DSM-V and every psychologist/psychiatrist/mental health professional worth their salt disagrees with you, but keep on living in you made-up reality, since it seems to suit your agenda...

Google this topic, it's thousands of different pages discussion this, so it's not like I am alone. There are scientists on both sides disagreeing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314045/ Brilliant article for you to read as an example.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...013.00024/full Another

Addiction is a choice, litterally MILLIONS of people agree with me, millions agree with you as well, so the point is, it's not an easy answer, it's very debated and in the end it comes down to your view of the world and your opionins.

[Battlebeard]

You uh, completely, missed the point of the episode. Also using an episode of south park as a rebuttal to scientific studies is. . . A take, one I wouldn't be proudly touting, but it is your right to look like a complete idiot. South park is excellent commentary, but the meta-commentary might be well above what you can manage I'm afraid.

The point of the episode was that Randy was NOT sick, he didn't have a disease, he didn't need to be cured, all he needed was some discipline. You are powerless to a real disease, and Randy was not powerless here, he had the power to just control his drinking, that was the point. South Park think's AA meetings and the people there who blame a disease for their own failed lifechoices are pathetic, just like I do.

Stan even say in the episode "No, it's (alcoholism) is not a disease, cancer is a disease". Rewatch it dude.

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You uh, completely, missed the point of the episode. Also using an episode of south park as a rebuttal to scientific studies is. . . A take, one I wouldn't be proudly touting, but it is your right to look like a complete idiot. South park is excellent commentary, but the meta-commentary might be well above what you can manage I'm afraid.

I never said it was a scientific study, just that people, no matter how much "science" you throw at us, will NEVER bend on our core beliefs in life.

[Azmoden]

You can link all you want, that "science" will never convince me, and if you ever known anyone dying of actual diseases like cancer, you wouldn't be so disrespectful to even compare it to real diseases.

They even made an entire South Park episode of this (Bloody Mary), where the entire episode is about alcoholism is not a disease and that alcoholics just need discipline, it's brilliant and very true, and obviously many people (smart people) agree with me here.

I'm here cause I get furious when haters judge a fantastic game, it's ignorant.

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Google this topic, it's thousands of different pages discussion this, so it's not like I am alone. There are scientists on both sides disagreeing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314045/ Brilliant article for you to read as an example.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...013.00024/full Another

Addiction is a choice, litterally MILLIONS of people agree with me, millions agree with you as well, so the point is, it's not an easy answer, it's very debated and in the end it comes down to your view of the world and your opionins.

Ok, so science won't convince you if it's contrary to your values or ideology. I'd like to live in your version of reality, where facts are like a Chinese buffet, you just eat what you like and the rest just doesn'T exist or is bad...

"Addiction is a choice" ... I'm still fucking laughing...

[Battlebeard]

Ok, so science won't convince you if it's contrary to your values or ideology. I'd like to live in your version of reality, where facts are like a Chinese buffet, you just eat what you like and the rest just doesn'T exist or is bad...

"Addiction is a choice" ... I'm still fucking laughing...

So, in another example, do you think all BILLIONS of religious people who believe in God are crazy or wrong just cause science can't prove God exist, or rather prove he doesn't exist?

We are never gonna agree here. Addiciton is a choice, but losers who get addicted are never gonna take responsibility, cause they feel embarassed and they are lazy. They may feel they can't help it, but that still doesn't make it a disease, cause they CAN actually help it if they just put in a little work.

But why work hard to improve yourself, when you can take the easy route and blame it on a disease, so you don't have to work at all, don't need to take any responsbility and maybe even have people feel bad for you and actually gain things.

I'm sorry, but then again I'm not sorry, addicts are pathetic people. Get a grip of your life and be freaking happy you don't have cancer or something. This soft "poor addict awww" is making me extremely angry.

[Battlebeard]

Again, it's a tv show, Stan says that because he's a fucking 10 year old, he has a simplistic view on it.

Just like people believe the earth is flat, or those who believe abortion is murder. You are flatly rejecting science because it would mean you'd have to adjust your thinking/beliefs, and that's too much to ask. Being malleable, receptive and grow.

You haven't understood the show AT ALL then. Stan Marsh and Kyle Broflowski are reflections of the two creators themselves, Trey Parker (Stan) and Matt Stone (Kyle), and their families are based on the creators own families (Treys dad is named Randy etc). The kids of South Park are the smart ones, even though their age, that's the point, and Stan and Kyles opinions reflect the creators opinions.

And again, you can call me wrong, or stupid or w/e, I don't care, cause it's MILLIONS of us who think like I do, and whether you like or not, you are gonna have to deal with us one way or the other in life, you can't just pretend we don't exist and ignore us.

HOW can Diablo Immortal make so much money if it has such "predatory" ways? It may not make sense to you, but to us it does, cause WE DON'T CARE, cause it only ruin lives of stupid and lazy people, and in the end that's darwinism at it's finest, cause it's not a bad thing stupid and lazy people don't succeed, it would be far worse if they got too far in life. It may sound coldhearted, but we simply have no empathy for them, hence we don't see the "predatory" ways of Immortal as such a bad thing, rather as natural selection.

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He googled things with the title "addiction is not a disease" without reading what was put forth. The argument of it not being a disease is basically a "conflating current world views on what a disease is may make people dismiss the severity of these cases because they are now aligned with cancer to the lay".

On top of that; the community is moving more to calling them diseases, because they are being more seen as abnormalities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5486510/

A lot of these articles I'm reading are basically, "We can't directly call it a disease without consensus yet, as we are still really working through a lot of shit we just don't know enough about". Even those he touts as "agrees with him" agree things need to be done, but more to the social setting (relevant to this thread, because normalizing gambling in things such as video games that we make accessible to our kids is pretty fucking on the nose). This thread is mostly, "I didn't read shit and you can't change my mind". Yeah, no shit I'm not going to change your mind, but someone on the fence who is reading this and goes, "I'm not sure, maybe it is a disease, maybe it's just a brain malfunction, maybe it's just people being juvenile" can at least see merit behind the arguments; one attempting to come from what science is learning, to another being "South park had a 10 year old say this".

Considering the way you speak etc, I take it you are not a religious guy. I am neither, but I am not gonna take the fight with 93% of the worlds population who ARE religious, even thought I have all the science in the world to back me up, cause I realize that science CAN actually be wrong and that those people, regardless how much science is put forth, are entitled to their opinion, even though I think it's wrong.

I will fight for what I believe is right.
But I fight even harder for a world where you are allowed to be wrong.

You view dude, is very faschist and un-understanding of people who doesn't care about your so called scientific proof. You need a bit of a reality check, the world does not work the way you think.

[Battlebeard]

And again, it's a simplistic view, and one you are more than keen to jump in on while touting your amazing intellect. Matt and Trey do excellent commentary, but they are not immune to being wrong.



We still attempt to learn more even when millions of people throw ignorance out there as equitable to study. I thought the same thing 10 years ago, but had to learn that shit changes!



Because it is fucking predatory, you asked how it makes so much money and then explained it. Also equating predatory from the sense of immoral shitty games to darwinism is hilarious. Mate you are angry, clueless, delusional and need other people to know it. You throw out resources you haven't even read that counter your own arguments, you are emotionally riled up over people criticizing a game you've invested so heavily into, and on top of that think that people suffering is just "NaTuRaL sElEcTiOn".

You aren't just a nut, you are the whole mixed bag.

Read all of this, I try to clearly present what I mean.


It doesn't matter if Matt and Trey are wrong, the point is, that episode clearly show that this is a topic that has been discussed for a long time and that doesn't have a set in stone answer. And that some opinions, some strong beliefs, will NEVER be shattered, and the people who never change aren't necessary ignorant, they can also show some integrity.

Take the abortion question you mentioned before, science can argue a life begins at conception, which would make all abortion murder if you look at pure science, but MY belief, my opinon is that life begins when the MIND is developed, which take like 18 weeks or so, so a pre-18 week abortion is not murder. No matter what ANY scientist say, no matter if he present me a 10000 page study why life begins at conception, I will, until the day I die, never ever be against an early-stage abortion.

Same with this topic, there is nothing anyone in the world can ever say, I will NEVER in my life consider addiction a disease, EVER.

And WE ARE NOT alone with having these strong beliefs that "goes against" science so to speak, we are not crazy, we are not stupid, and you should really try to understand we are here and that we have a voice, irregardless how much you disgaree.

This is relevant to the topic, cause I will never consider Immortal doing something wrong, cause all they do is offer a system where you can, if you want, buy power. We (most users here) live in the west, a free world, if we wanna buy stuff, we can. We have the freedom to buy stuff in Immortal and we have the freedom to not buy it.

But those who actually but stuff and ruin themselves, the addicts, I don't feel sorry for them, at all. They need to take responsibility of their own lives and STOP blaming disease for their own mistakes.

Why is this important, cause if they make people believe they have a disease, then suddenly what Immortal does is targeting sick people who cannot defend themselves, and suddenly they are bad guys, and they ARE NOT. They are businessmen. Money is not ugly, everything on the planet is money. Saying addiction is a disease is not just harmful to Blizzard, it's harful to the entire free market, it's harmful to FREEDOM as a whole, something we should defend in the west.

I should have the freedom to make any kind of business. If I wanna sell a box full of poop for 1 million dollars, I should have the freedom to do so. And you should have the freedom to buy it, or to not buy it. If you actually are so stupid that you do buy it, it's YOUR fault, not mine.

[Battlebeard]

Again, your mind can't be changed, so why are you still here? Present something based in science or evidence to your view that doesn't actually contradict your opinion directly. Otherwise, I'll continue to call Actiblizz what they really are: Disgusting predators, both in their business model AND in their cubicle halls.

Cause I will try as much as I possibly can, to help people understand that Blizzard hasn't done anything wrong with Diablo Immortal.

If you call Blizzard predators just because you have some scientist say addiction is a disease and they target sick people, is exactly the same thing as calling all religions people morons for believing in God, just cause some scientist say God isn't real.

Do you not see the problem here? Do you not see what you are doing? You are saying your "science" is more important than the opinion of millions of people (who obviously like Immortal as they haven't quit). Which is the same as saying science is more important than the belief and opinion of BILLIONS of people who believe in God.

Who the hell gave you that power, who do you think you are? Who does w/e scientist you have think he/she is. I find your way of arguing offensive to be honest.

[Spiroz]

Read all of this, I try to clearly present what I mean.


It doesn't matter if Matt and Trey are wrong, the point is, that episode clearly show that this is a topic that has been discussed for a long time and that doesn't have a set in stone answer. And that some opinions, some strong beliefs, will NEVER be shattered, and the people who never change aren't necessary ignorant, they can also show some integrity.

Take the abortion question you mentioned before, science can argue a life begins at conception, which would make all abortion murder if you look at pure science, but MY belief, my opinon is that life begins when the MIND is developed, which take like 18 weeks or so, so a pre-18 week abortion is not murder. No matter what ANY scientist say, no matter if he present me a 10000 page study why life begins at conception, I will, until the day I die, never ever be against an early-stage abortion.

Same with this topic, there is nothing anyone in the world can ever say, I will NEVER in my life consider addiction a disease, EVER.

And WE ARE NOT alone with having these strong beliefs that "goes against" science so to speak, we are not crazy, we are not stupid, and you should really try to understand we are here and that we have a voice, irregardless how much you disgaree.

This is relevant to the topic, cause I will never consider Immortal doing something wrong, cause all they do is offer a system where you can, if you want, buy power. We (most users here) live in the west, a free world, if we wanna buy stuff, we can. We have the freedom to buy stuff in Immortal and we have the freedom to not buy it.

But those who actually but stuff and ruin themselves, the addicts, I don't feel sorry for them, at all. They need to take responsibility of their own lives and STOP blaming disease for their own mistakes.

Why is this important, cause if they make people believe they have a disease, then suddenly what Immortal does is targeting sick people who cannot defend themselves, and suddenly they are bad guys, and they ARE NOT. They are businessmen. Money is not ugly, everything on the planet is money. Saying addiction is a disease is not just harmful to Blizzard, it's harful to the entire free market, it's harmful to FREEDOM as a whole, something we should defend in the west.

I should have the freedom to make any kind of business. If I wanna sell a box full of poop for 1 million dollars, I should have the freedom to do so. And you should have the freedom to buy it, or to not buy it. If you actually are so stupid that you do buy it, it's YOUR fault, not mine.

I will start by saying I have a bit of bias in this topic (5 years sober and actively in recovery) but I understand your point about the fact that you should be allowed to sell something even if it is addictive however I do not agree with your lack of compassion.

Addiction is a real thing and it causes huge amounts of destruction and despair, if we were to take the approach that you are in a round about way promoting that there should be 0 regulation then why stop kids drinking before the age of 18 (or 21 in the US) why make smoking restricted in some areas?

A community is built on the social conscious of the mass and if the mass deem something is harmful then it should be regulated to ensure it doesnt create greater impact on the community as a whole. I 100% agree that a business should be allowed to do everything in its power to be profitable but when we look at the lengths companies go to be profitable and the lack of consumer care then I am 100% for regulation.

I wouldnt be surprised if people said similar crap about banning smoking back in the day but now its universally known it kills people, but I guess we should have just let the big tobacco companies keep making money as (money is life??)

[Silakka]

Cause I will try as much as I possibly can, to help people understand that Blizzard hasn't done anything wrong with Diablo Immortal.

If you call Blizzard predators just because you have some scientist say addiction is a disease and they target sick people, is exactly the same thing as calling all religions people morons for believing in God, just cause some scientist say God isn't real.

Do you not see the problem here? Do you not see what you are doing? You are saying your "science" is more important than the opinion of millions of people (who obviously like Immortal as they haven't quit). Which is the same as saying science is more important than the belief and opinion of BILLIONS of people who believe in God.

Who the hell gave you that power, who do you think you are? Who does w/e scientist you have think he/she is. I find your way of arguing offensive to be honest.

Some scientists you say? So you don't believe in facts? Being religious is ok, if you don't shove it down my throat. It seems helping people understand DI like you said, is somewhat of that throat shoving wont you say?

[Daedius]

Good reason why I avoid F2P games like the plague, the monetization of this game is beyond disgusting...

[Kyanion]

Well it’s also their lives, their money, their choice. That’s called freedom

Ah yes, deflect when you know you are wrong, that's cool. You say it doesn't happen and when you realize that people with various addictions fall prey to tactics of mobile games you just fire that one off.

Yes, people are able to spend money how they choose, but don't forget those actions can affect others. Ever heard stories of parents with gambling addictions and their kids grow up in homes in poverty or worse? You think just because it is a mobile game that it has never happened? Show some fucking empathy.

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When the video start with calling Addiction a disease, you instantly lost me. Addiction, whether it's gambling addiction or alhoholism is NOT a disease. Cancer is a disease, Covid is a disease, ALS is a disease.

Ah so you are just being willfully ignorant. Got it.

Yup, people suffering from alcoholism (which has ruined countless lives btw) are not suffering from a disease because Battlebeard says so. I think I'll take the word of professionals in healthcare/mental health over your willful ignorance. You aren't here to argue in good faith, which has been known, but to say shit like that is just sad man.

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You can link all you want, that "science" will never convince me, and if you ever known anyone dying of actual diseases like cancer, you wouldn't be so disrespectful to even compare it to real diseases.

And if you know anyone that has lost fucking lives in a car crash because someone suffering from alcoholism caused an accident you wouldn't be so disrespectful to even say it wasn't as bad as or worse than other diseases.

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I'm here cause I get furious when haters judge a fantastic game, it's ignorant.

The fucking irony. It is palpable.

[Witchblade77]

ya'll you will never convince these people. they have made up their minds and no evidence in a world will convince them.

incidentally, working through addiction is a choice. going into recovery is a choice. being an addict? is not. that is why addicts are considered recovering for life, because its a chronic condition, you cannot just cure it, only treat it and minimize its effects. but I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here for some of you and falling on deaf ears in case of the people I have decided to ignore, except ignore function on this forum is terrible, since it does nothing for quotes. ah well.

I mean... people have died from various overdoses, but yeah, sure. who cares about evidence when belief is on the line.

[Delekii]

Cause I will try as much as I possibly can, to help people understand that Blizzard hasn't done anything wrong with Diablo Immortal.

If you call Blizzard predators just because you have some scientist say addiction is a disease and they target sick people, is exactly the same thing as calling all religions people morons for believing in God, just cause some scientist say God isn't real.

Do you not see the problem here? Do you not see what you are doing? You are saying your "science" is more important than the opinion of millions of people (who obviously like Immortal as they haven't quit). Which is the same as saying science is more important than the belief and opinion of BILLIONS of people who believe in God.

Who the hell gave you that power, who do you think you are? Who does w/e scientist you have think he/she is. I find your way of arguing offensive to be honest.

Are you for real?

You can believe until your heart's desire, but if a brick falls on your head you get a concussion - that's gravity. Science doesn't need to discuss being "important", it doesn't have an ego, it isn't a thing with a conscience. It describes the facts, as they can best be understood by humans today. Who does the scientist think they are? Someone who knows the facts and doesn't give a fuck about whatever invisible person you believe in.

One doesn't need to be "given power" to state what is a fact. People who say there is unequivocally no god are not stating so from a point of science, but there is also zero evidence to suggest there is. It isn't a belief that addiction is a disease - it is. That is a fact. It also isn't a belief that Blizzard is targeting it - they are. That is a fact. What you believe about the matter is irrelevant, it isn't a discussion with two sides. It is a statement of a fact, which you incorrectly disbelieve. That's it.

As always - if you have evidence to support your contrarian position then present it and change the world; that is the power of science. It doesn't matter if every other person on Earth doesn't agree with you - present the evidence to peer review, and if it hold up, you're right and they change their minds. The same is not true of belief. Belief requires active active suspension of disbelief after a given level of education.