Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Aucald]

Like I said, that's the problem with people trying to judge art in this way.

When can we say it's "good" without someone else saying it's not? A majority vote? Some objective cosmic measurement? Of course not.

Pretty easily in point of fact: "I think it's good," or "I think it's bad" would work and can't really be gainsaid. You could also even claim "a majority think it's good/bad," and that is at least somewhat provable via a poll or ranking website. The point is that art is not objective, and as art, neither are video games. Someone else is always allowed to disagree, and that's there own subjective opinion on the matter, which doesn't invalidate yours if they disagree.

[Ghost of Cow]

Forced grouping is for social triggers to buy stuff so you "done let down the group" and timers are to train pigeons to create habit and becasue FOMO is hell of a drug. Every decision makes sense when looked from the perspective - how can we psychologically manipulate people to spend more money?

I keep hearing people use "FOMO" to describe like...literally everything anymore.

It makes me wonder if there's really anything wrong with concepts like daily quests, or if people are just increasingly spoiled brats who just want everything and can't handle the idea of not getting something no matter how tiny.

[Elim Garak]

Talent is also judged externally and subjectively and is therefore not objective - most especially artistic talent.

You too are confusing talent/skill with art. You seem to be judging talent by the art. That's where YOUR subjectivity gets in the way of your thinking. Talent is objective. You see it, even in the art you don't like (if you are able of seeing it that is).

You can see a great artist - paint a piece of shit (but with a great skill) in your humble opinion. You can hear a pianist plying something horrible to your ears (but so complex you wonder how his hands work).

Talent and skill are objectively recognizable.

Back to Diablo Immortal though, it's not just about whales. It's also about all those non-paying players having a blast without paying. Diablo Immortal is objectively good game. It's popular in it's niche and it earns a pretty dollar. No amount of minority screams can change that.

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Sure. But the overall point doesn't change, now does it? I mean, you still have that "side of shit" stinking up the table, even if you avoid it, right?

Only if you order it.

[Ielenia]

Only if you order it.

Yeah, well, in this analogy you can't "not order" it, since it comes with the beef. Even if you don't touch it, it's still there, right next to your beef wellington.

Either way, the point is that even if you consciously avoid engaging in microtransactions, you still see them there, taunting and teasing you to get you to spend money on them.

[Ghost of Cow]

Either way, the point is that even if you consciously avoid engaging in microtransactions, you still see them there, taunting and teasing you to get you to spend money on them.

What is this "taunting and teasing", jeez.

No different than the million other things competing for your money every day. Just...don't buy them.

[Elim Garak]

Yeah, well, in this analogy you can't "not order" it, since it comes with the beef. Even if you don't touch it, it's still there, right next to your beef wellington.

Either way, the point is that even if you consciously avoid engaging in microtransactions, you still see them there, taunting and teasing you to get you to spend money on them.

You absolutely can not order it, but you will see it in the menu.
If seeing it in the menu - is bad for you - leave the establishment at once.

[Ielenia]

You absolutely can not order it, but you will see it in the menu.
If seeing it in the menu - is bad for you - leave the establishment at once.

The "menu", eh? Can you show me where in the B.net store where I can find a version of the Diablo: Immortal game without microtransactions?

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What is this "taunting and teasing", jeez.

No different than the million other things competing for your money every day. Just...don't buy them.

You never played a single mobile game in the recent... five or so years, have you?

[Ghost of Cow]

You never played a single mobile game in the recent... five or so years, have you?

Yes, I have, and I just...don't buy the stuff.

Just do the extremely bare minimum responsible adult thing and don't spend beyond your means. Who cares if the game is "teasing and taunting" you, do you really somehow feel incomplete if you don't buy everything that's shown to you?

[Delekii]

You too are confusing talent/skill with art. You seem to be judging talent by the art. That's where YOUR subjectivity gets in the way of your thinking. Talent is objective. You see it, even in the art you don't like (if you are able of seeing it that is).

You can see a great artist - paint a piece of shit (but with a great skill) in your humble opinion. You can hear a pianist plying something horrible to your ears (but so complex you wonder how his hands work).

Talent and skill are objectively recognizable.

Talent and skill require a subjective value gradation of the object of that skill. You can hear a pianist playing something you don't like but can subjectively judge to be complex and necessitating talent. You can also hear a monkey sitting at a keyboard and mashing buttons in a complex but ultimately random way. It requires a subjective value judgment to determine the difference.

Back to Diablo Immortal though, it's not just about whales. It's also about all those non-paying players having a blast without paying. Diablo Immortal is objectively good game. It's popular in it's niche and it earns a pretty dollar. No amount of minority screams can change that.

You have done precisely nothing to change the reality that calling a piece of art good requires your subjective opinion, nor that quality is described through popularism or monetary success.

Only if you order it.

You can't not order it, it comes with the dish whether you order it or not. You can not eat it, but it's still there on the plate in perpetuity.

We will never see the version of Diablo Immortal that was not designed with unbridled greed as its core motivating design strategy; that game simply does not exist. Every facet of the game experienced by every player, free to play and whale alike, is sat on a bed of design choices informed by monetization. It is an objective fact that the game was not designed as its best possible version in and of itself; only secondary to that goal of making money.

[Ghost of Cow]

Every facet of the game experienced by every player, free to play and whale alike, is sat on a bed of design choices informed by monetization. It is an objective fact that the game was not designed as its best possible version in and of itself; only secondary to that goal of making money.

To some extent that's true, but it's far from unique to D:I, or even mobile games in general.

It has been an issue ever since the concept of always-on, game-as-a-service products started to become popular and accepted. In the same way that arcade cabinets were designed to be horribly unfair games that ate your quarters, these games-as-a-service were designed to drip-feed you content and get you invested in your character/gear/etc to keep you subscribed forever.

This shit has been around forever, there just wasn't a big manufactured controversy around it all back then.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this to excuse any practice by D:I or any other game. Simply that shit to milk money out of you is everywhere, and it's on us to ignore it and just play what we want on our terms. To not act like spoiled brats who NEED everything they see and are thus compelled to spend for the sake of it.

[Elim Garak]

The "menu", eh? Can you show me where in the B.net store where I can find a version of the Diablo: Immortal game without microtransactions?

It's the same game in b.net store. Diablo Immortal has no microtransactions if you are not using them.

[Witchblade77]

Forced grouping is for social triggers to buy stuff so you "done let down the group" and timers are to train pigeons to create habit and becasue FOMO is hell of a drug. Every decision makes sense when looked from the perspective - how can we psychologically manipulate people to spend more money?

oh I am aware. but those also exist to some degree in games that are NOT trying to lead you into a cash shop every step of the way. and in case of timers specifically, its not like I can buy my way into a boss spawn on a more comfortable schedule. they could have made the window longer to give more people opportunity to participate while still keeping it relatively limited to encourage that FOMO. But just like monetization, they pushed it too far IMO.

[Ielenia]

Yes, I have, and I just...don't buy the stuff.

Maybe, but you not partaking in the microtransactions doesn't mean you don't get "buy this!" or "don't miss the sale!" advertisements within the game teasing and taunting you to spend money.

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It's the same game in b.net store. Diablo Immortal has no microtransactions if you are not using them.

That's not how it works.

I cannot claim WoW is a game "without any cash shop" if I choose not to buy anything from the cash shop. PvP is still there, regardless if I partake in it or not. Same thing with Diablo: Immortal: the microtransactions are still there. The boosts are still there. The exclusive stuff is there.

[Ghost of Cow]

Maybe, but you not partaking in the microtransactions doesn't mean you don't get "buy this!" or "don't miss the sale!" advertisements within the game teasing and taunting you to spend money.

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said that it's not somehow obligating you to buy them just because you're "teased" or "taunted".

Seriously, this is just Adulting 101. I guess consumerism has tried to teach people that they MUST purchase everything or they're "missing out" and that's horrible and unfair, but none of that is true.

[Kyanion]

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said that it's not somehow obligating you to buy them just because you're "teased" or "taunted".

I mean there is also the fact I've pointed out to you that you ignore. There is a system in the game you can NOT do as a F2P with the gems.

[Battlebeard]

my great aunt died of cancer few years back, and my father died of cancer 3 weeks ago
addiction absolutely IS DISEASE, its not deadly, very few mental diseases are, but it is very serious disease

and sure it "just needs discipline" (that is serious understatement but lets go with it), same way type2 diabetes just needs discipline - diet and exercise are nothing but discipline - yet somehow nobody in their right mind would say diabetes is not a disease...

wait a minute.. arent you the guy with thread how its the games fault you save useless trash instead of selling it and then not have space? i got it now, you cant admit addiction is disease, bcs you would have to admiot you have mental issues, and its easier to lie to yourself

I don’t know you but I am still sorry to hear that, cancer is evil

But lets drop the addiction question, we never gonna agree and just run in circles here

[Ghost of Cow]

I mean there is also the fact I've pointed out to you that you ignore. There is a system in the game you can NOT do as a F2P with the gems.

Um, how did I ignore it when I replied to you about it?

The only argument there MIGHT be that "gear IS content" which is fine if you want to make that argument. I'd disagree, but that's ok.

[Battlebeard]

I wouldn't say the highest, but it would score higher, yes. But hey, they can serve you a delicious beef wellington, but you'd still give the overall dish a low rating if it came coated in liquid diarrhea, wouldn't you?

That is a good example, but in this case, we are lucky enough to be able to enjoy the beef wellington without having to even deal with the diarrhea.

[Aucald]

You too are confusing talent/skill with art. You seem to be judging talent by the art. That's where YOUR subjectivity gets in the way of your thinking. Talent is objective. You see it, even in the art you don't like (if you are able of seeing it that is).

You can see a great artist - paint a piece of shit (but with a great skill) in your humble opinion. You can hear a pianist plying something horrible to your ears (but so complex you wonder how his hands work).

Talent and skill are objectively recognizable.

Back to Diablo Immortal though, it's not just about whales. It's also about all those non-paying players having a blast without paying. Diablo Immortal is objectively good game. It's popular in it's niche and it earns a pretty dollar. No amount of minority screams can change that.

I'm talking about artistic talent, yes. Since art in its various forms is what we're discussing, the associated talent would be the context, and that is essentially subjectively - both the art itself and the talent (or lack thereof) creating said art. Talent in mathematics, for example, could be said to be objective because mathematics only has a binary state, it is either correct or incorrect. You can't say the same of art, since it has no objective basis on which it can be judged, and even the judgments we apply like "good" or "bad" are themselves relative and subjective.

Your examples are all subjective understandings of given artistic processes - like a painting being a "piece of shit" or playing "something horrible," whereas other people may come to a different judgment altogether depending. A lot of people love artistic expressions like Free Jazz, and a lot of people just think it's cacophonous noise. Both of those judgments are equally true and equally valid, therefore neither of them can be objective (unless you think reality is intrinsically paradoxical).

I actually enjoyed Diablo: Immortal up to a point, and I think it's actually a good game - making it a dual shame that it has to have an MTX thrown on top of it to seemingly and artificially stop forward progress without paying exorbitant amounts. Of course, that's just my judgment, and a lot of people think Diablo: Immortal is superficial and lacking in gameplay - they're equally entitled to their opinion as well, and neither is an objective reality (or they both are, which renders the debate moot all the same).

[Ielenia]

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said that it's not somehow obligating you to buy them just because you're "teased" or "taunted".

And I never said it "obligates" you to spend. But it doesn't make the microtransactions any less obnoxious even if I don't partake in them. And as people pointed out, if you plan on playing competitively, you are either forced to spend money into the game, or face the fact you'll mostly likely never be anywhere near the top.