1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post

    I also think that to consider someone a "knight in shining armour" just for not wanting people to be exploited is like bro, come on. Is that how low we've come? That common decency is viewed as virtuous. Also, to think that companies don't target people they can exploit, and you say I am the one who lives in fiction? The world is built on the rich exploiting the less fortunate.
    I think the issue is that you're just assuming people are being exploited. You claim the problem exists even though there isn't any indication that there is a problem. I mean yeah we hear about kids spending thousands on their parent's credit cards but that's more on the parents than anything else.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I really don't get why people are upset about the p2w aspect. It's not news, we've known it would be for 4 years. What.
    I think what people are upset about most isn't that DI is a p2w mobile game - that is as you say exactly what they said it would be.

    If that was all, we could just go with "if you don't like it don't play it, it's not going to come into your room and night and force you to play" and be done with it.

    But people don't like the implication that this mobile cash-grab game took development away from a "real" Diablo game. It's not as much about the existence of p2w mobile games as it is about companies investing time and money into making said games rather than investing that time and money making other games.

    How much of that is true and actually reflective of the development process is difficult to tell. Just because money was invested into one product doesn't mean that money would have or could have gone to a different product - after all, they might have invested that money only BECAUSE it was for a cash-grabby game promising good returns on that investment. On a different game with less monetization they might not even have made that investment at all.

    And of course this was largely outsourced anyway, so rather than taking away Blizzard resources from a "real" Diablo game this probably ate up more resources at a company that would have made a mobile game regardless.

    The only real fear that does remain is that if consumers are willing to accept predatory business model (and what degree of predatoriness we're talking here is a separate debate) then companies in the future will be more incentivized to develop such games; whereas if consumers summarily reject that kind of business model, we're more likely to get other games instead. That's a real choice you can make, and I encourage anyone who wants to make a stand in that respect to just not play DI - at the end of the day, not buying into their product is the only message that will be unequivocally heard.

  3. #363
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    I don't think there using sales tactics, they are using sales tactics like they are right there in the game. I don't think there's mechanics there that are designed around the in-game shop because again they are right there. You think they have multiple forms of currency for fun? You think they have multiple rift tokens with increasing rewards for fun? You think the whole RNG based legendary gem/upgrade system etc. is there for fun? To say this is an opinion is to say that this is how the game would be if the in-game shop didn't exist which is just false and I feel we both know that. I guess you can't literally call it a "fact" but be real, like defend these mechanics for me then and why they are there if not for this reason. Don't just tell me I am wrong, tell me why I am wrong and if you can't maybe question why that is.
    The opinion was that the above is a PROBLEM. It's not.
    It's in line with the logic behind bears not dropping their asses every time you kill one in WoW for a quest that asks you to collect 10 bear asses. I'm sorry 10 pristine bear asses, so it makes sense that not every bear has a pristine ass.

    You are literally claiming that design decisions that affect the pacing of the player progression are a problem. While they are necessary. Whether you like them or not - is again your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    You can't claim to know where the majority of the income comes from anymore than I can.
    Of course I can. Just because you don't know doesn't mean it's a secret knowledge. You do know what a whale is, after all. People don't use that term lightly. It exactly means the big spender, and most revenue comes from whales (and ads). It's like a known fact since at least 2015.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Although one would argue if these predatory sales tactics weren't the main source of income why put them in the game?
    Just because you call them predatory - doesn't make them predatory - again - it's just your opinion.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  4. #364
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's not just the new player bundle. By defeating the Skeleton King, you literally unlock the ability to purchase the Mad King's Bundle for $0.99. It straight up tells you that you've earned the right to purchase this bundle because you've beaten the Skeleton King LOL
    Which is a "new player" bundle. There are ones for most of the "main story" dungeons and they go up in price but are still intro/new bundles as these special ones are all one time purchases. It isn't scummy to have to "introductory offers" in the store. Do you complain when the grocery store offers you a coupon because it is scummy to offer a discount?

    Also what is with the brother in christ stuff. If you want to insult people just out right say it instead of hiding behind a meme saying.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-04 at 10:09 PM.
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  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I think what people are upset about most isn't that DI is a p2w mobile game - that is as you say exactly what they said it would be.

    If that was all, we could just go with "if you don't like it don't play it, it's not going to come into your room and night and force you to play" and be done with it.

    But people don't like the implication that this mobile cash-grab game took development away from a "real" Diablo game. It's not as much about the existence of p2w mobile games as it is about companies investing time and money into making said games rather than investing that time and money making other games.

    How much of that is true and actually reflective of the development process is difficult to tell. Just because money was invested into one product doesn't mean that money would have or could have gone to a different product - after all, they might have invested that money only BECAUSE it was for a cash-grabby game promising good returns on that investment. On a different game with less monetization they might not even have made that investment at all.

    And of course this was largely outsourced anyway, so rather than taking away Blizzard resources from a "real" Diablo game this probably ate up more resources at a company that would have made a mobile game regardless.

    The only real fear that does remain is that if consumers are willing to accept predatory business model (and what degree of predatoriness we're talking here is a separate debate) then companies in the future will be more incentivized to develop such games; whereas if consumers summarily reject that kind of business model, we're more likely to get other games instead. That's a real choice you can make, and I encourage anyone who wants to make a stand in that respect to just not play DI - at the end of the day, not buying into their product is the only message that will be unequivocally heard.
    If people could refrain from giving a definite judgement on the game less than a week after its launch, it would have less information that are completely absurd...

    You've got a free campaign to play (I'm at > 20h of play and still haven't finished it) and for the endgame, only a handful of people actually reached it. Check the leaderboard and you will see a very small list of people. So for now, just consider that there isn't a lot of information on endgame content and its requirements. And that the average player just has no idea of what the endgame will look like to them.

    People are angry because they just don't want to take the time to check if the game is good or not and get influenced by doomsayers and negationists. People make money by making videos and articles about X game being bad for you or badly designed because it makes them sound smarter than the average guy. They're sly but not smart. That is the whole story for now.

    In a couple of weeks or month you will have experienced fully the game and then you can be the wise guy that explains the whole situation to others. But for now, stop making stuff up and screaming "predatory business" "predatory practise" when micro-transaction and in-game purchases with real money have no use before reaching max level therefore it's not addressed to non top competitive consumers (aka casual players).

  6. #366
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Just because you call them predatory - doesn't make them predatory - again - it's just your opinion.
    I mean by design like any mobile games the systems are designed to be predatory. There are many tactics used in these games meant to lure people in psychologically, its a well known truth that been shown in videos by the people who implement these tactics. this is not some 'opinion' its a widespread know thing. I would recommend a few videos to watch.

    For if you want to see how companies think, this is a video from a CEO discussing the tricks of the F2P trade.


    Also if you want the more physiological effects that these practices can have. I would recommend this website with a more written in depth reasoning
    https://blog.admixplay.com/5-psychol...ile-games-use/

    ...and I haven't even touched on the effects these practices have on people with mental conditions like ADHD, autism and addictive gambling issues, I would recommend this pdf
    https://fil.forbrukerradet.no/wp-con...in-publish.pdf


    I am not here to tell you that you should 'not play' or you should 'not spend', its your time and money you can do what you like with that, but do not try and pretend that these unethical practices are anything but that, even if you are not being affected by that yourself
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-06-04 at 10:11 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  7. #367
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    Lol even if you do pay, you have to buy the battle pass on every character,cosmetics arent account wide either. Like, the pre-registration armor set is only available on the character you redeem it on, so if you decide to try other classes, oh well, buy everything again
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    For the Battle Pass you don't have to buy it for each separate character. The way it works is you have to level the Battle Pass progress bar from scratch for each new character but it doesn't require multiple purchases.
    Oops I was somewhat wrong with my last post so I wanted to make a correction. Unlocking the bonus Battle Pass progress bar is actually per realm/server. So it's not account wide but if you stay on the same server then you won't have to unlock the Battle Pass progress bar more than once.
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-06-05 at 04:26 PM.
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  8. #368
    having to grind mobs to get levels to continue the story is just trash design and not to mention it will likely take 10years to get 5* leggos in everyslot without forking over cash which is just retarded in my opinion they could of made it a little easier to obtain shit

    - - - Updated - - -

    on a side note it will do til d4 i guess

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarinet View Post
    foxxy is basically no longer a fox - more like a badger this game

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    I understand companies exist to make money, but that doesn't excuse disgusting behaviour and these predatory mechanics are exactly that.
    People use this argument all the time without understanding that there are many ways to make money.

    Actually releasing quality content and pleasing customers by sheer dedication gets you very loyal fans, the kind what will stick through with you for a long time. This is also a strategy to make money. It's more focused on the long run. Blizzard used to be like this, hence the famous "it's done when it's done", constantly delaying their games in order to release a masterpiece. People loved this and it's what made Blizzard so big.

    Another strategy is the one this thread is about. It's all focused on short term. Fast money. Taking your playerbase for fools to shake as much money out of them as possible. They don't care if the game isn't perfect as long as people are spending money. They don't need a masterpiece, they are content with 'good enough'. It's pretty much the opposite of what Blizzard used to be about.

    Besides these two strategies there are plenty more in between. So yeah, companies exist to make money, that's true. But that's no excuse to let them get away with an aggressive strategy that punishes people and pressures them out of their money. It's not making money that's the problem, it's the way they do.

    This pretty much sums up why a lot of fans abandoned Blizzard over the last years, it's because Blizzard abandoned them and changed their business strategy. They don't think highly of their loyal fans, they just see a target and they move like a predator to take advantage of these people.

    All went to hell when Activision happened.

  10. #370
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I haven't seen a single "fruit of passion" from Blizzard in several years. I don't think that they were lacking money for it, so I doubt that the release of "crappy" mobile game will change anything in that matter.
    Of course there is passion going on, this is an absurd comment.
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  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Of course there is passion going on, this is an absurd comment.
    "Absurd comment" - I could say the same about your comment. But of course, you're allowed to have your own opinion.

    EDIT:

    Yet my problem here with Diablo: Immortal is not their recent games/expansions, etc but adding aggressive sales inside the game. That's why after playing for a bit I decided to uninstall it (would be quite silly to criticize without seeing it by myself, right?).

    I've played quite a few mobile games myself, yet this one is first h&s one, so can't compare to others of the same genre. It's quite fun (although my phone's battery has different opinion) but I don't want another source stretching hands towards me saying "give! give! give! give!" at every corner. I have enough of this irl with taxes and galloping inflation.

    I'm pretty sure that those who decide to pay will have quite fun for some time, while those who don't might get frustrated. If I have to choose, I prefer Path of Exile where you can't buy power with real money, just looks & skins. I'm afraid that Diablo's gameplay will be mostly balanced around paying customers and not paying ones will be getting scraps only and be kept for paying customers (whales) to having someone worse/weaker then them to compare to.

    If this was "boxed" game like previous Diablo, I'd happily pay for it. But I'm not going to pay for game which asks me for more money, no matter how much I would spend on it. I'd have less (probably zero) issues with it if the game wasn't released under the name Diablo but as a totally different ip.
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 2022-06-04 at 11:03 PM.

  12. #372
    it's just a cheap Lost Ark ripoff, nothing more.

  13. #373
    Installed it because its free, PC version. Played about 20-30 minutes and quit and uninstalled to never be played again.
    First of all, it has nothing to do with Diablo expect piggybacking on the existing reputation and using the same classes.
    Graphics looked meh, gameplay was not bad but not great. Also had 2 client crashes.

    Even free? Its not good enough for PC and it should have not used the Diablo franchise to push it... If it launched as its own IP? I could see it doing far far better.
    However... I can see this being a pretty good game for mobiles and ipads, specially on longer trips, flights etc.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Installed it because its free, PC version. Played about 20-30 minutes and quit and uninstalled to never be played again.
    First of all, it has nothing to do with Diablo expect piggybacking on the existing reputation and using the same classes.
    Graphics looked meh, gameplay was not bad but not great. Also had 2 client crashes.

    Even free? Its not good enough for PC and it should have not used the Diablo franchise to push it... If it launched as its own IP? I could see it doing far far better.
    However... I can see this being a pretty good game for mobiles and ipads, specially on longer trips, flights etc.
    maybe make a critic after playing more than 20min. Because you missed why it is a diablo game and the fact that it is alsona mobile game.
    @MoDs Can we close this thread, because most of the criticism here is coming from people that are not playing the game and things will go nowhere near a productive conversation...

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Even free? Its not good enough for PC and it should have not used the Diablo franchise to push it... If it launched as its own IP? I could see it doing far far better.
    This is one of the silliest things i've read in a long, long while.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which is a "new player" bundle. There are ones for most of the "main story" dungeons and they go up in price but are still intro/new bundles as these special ones are all one time purchases. It isn't scummy to have to "introductory offers" in the store. Do you complain when the grocery store offers you a coupon because it is scummy to offer a discount?

    Also what is with the brother in christ stuff. If you want to insult people just out right say it instead of hiding behind a meme saying.
    I understand it's a "new player" bundle, but those shouldn't be things that are on offer. If you wanted to give new players a special one time reward for clearing a story dungeon, then the boss of that dungeon should JUST DROP THE LOOT LOL

    They did this in D2 and D3. You got special bonus loot for the first time you killed a boss.

  17. #377
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    I really don't get why people are upset about the p2w aspect. It's not news, we've known it would be for 4 years. What.
    People have worked out, tested and practiced their outrage for three-and-a-half years. You have to expect them to hit the go button once the game is available.

    For the rest: It's not so much a defense of the revenue model as a statement of fact. This is how free mobile games are. Blizzard has made the calculation that the title will earn more for longer this way than if they did anything ridiculous like charging $49.99 for a phone/tablet game. Like it or not that calculation seems perfectly logical. Don't play; don't spend. Beyond that mind your own business and stop acting like a cheap evangelist warning people that the world is evil.
    Most people judge because thinking is hard.

  18. #378

    Bad game idea

    Pay to play is the least of the problems of this game. The graphics are marginal. Game play is stilted as you are hand held every step of the way down to placing foot prints to guide your path. Forced to play with keyboard controls is uncomfortable for many players. The vendors, skill system, and upgrades are all confusing. It is bad enough playing on a PC I just can't imagine what it is like playing on your phone. A complete disaster - what was Blizard thinking.
    Last edited by Der Wagney; 2022-06-05 at 01:47 AM. Reason: Spelling

  19. #379
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    One of the things I found quite funny when trying it was when I cleared a dungeon for the first time my REWARD is a discount bundle in the shop. My reward for clearing a dungeon is the opportunity to spend money. Oh but at a discount, ya know cus they want you to be used to spending money early. Even if it's just a little. Get that taste.

    From what I briefly saw of the game and the videos I have seen of others playing Blizzard has doubled down on every predatory, disgusting behaviour that P2W games have. The mental tricks of luring people in with rewards, dailies, small free tastes of what it'd be play to spend money, cheap 1-time only bundles to get you into spending just a little to get the ball rolling, every penny spent is some form of gambling mechanic to get those gambling addicts hooked etc. etc... Every mechanic in the game, every prompt, every action is designed with trying to get the player to spend money ahead of anything else.

    Diablo Immortal is everything bad about current-gen games, games whos mechanics are more focused on mental warefare with the player to make as much money as possible and it saddens me than the company and game at the forefront of all these disgusting behavours is both the company and game series that I once loved.

    I understand companies exist to make money, but that doesn't excuse disgusting behaviour and these predatory mechanics are exactly that. I just want game companies to be about making good games again. People should spend money on your game because your game is good and they want to support it, not because they was coaxed into spending it.
    I mean, we're just calling it Blizzard. It's been Activision for a long time. Blizzard is now Dreamhaven and a bunch of other studios.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Wagney View Post
    Pay to play is the least of the problems of this game. The graphics are marginal. Game play is stilted as you are hand held every step of the way down to placing foot prints to guide your path. Forced to play with keyboard controls is uncomfortable for many players. The vendors, skill system, and upgrades are all confusing. It is bad enough playing on a PC I just can't imagine what it is like playing on your phone. A complete disaster - what was Blizard thinking.
    Pay to play isn't even a problem. I can't remember how much money I've spent all these years buying games so that I could play them. In fact, that's how I expect to consume entertainment. The problem is paying to be competitive, lootboxes, systems that encourage you through psychological traps that when sprung trigger fear of missing out, which pressures you into spending money not because you're enjoying the product but because you feel like you have to. "If I can only try this one more lootbox, maybe I'll get what I want!". That's what the problem is.

    That's what is predatorial about it. Companies that employ that (most mobile game companies even) pray on individuals who have a natural propensity to fall for gambling and addiction will have a hard time resisting that sort of stuff, so yeah, I do think it's an unethical business model.

    Not to me, mind you, I'm not playing it, or any such mobile games, but other people do, and other people become addicted and end up screwing their lives over that sort of thing.

    It's filthy.
    Last edited by Tiev; 2022-06-05 at 02:01 AM.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    maybe make a critic after playing more than 20min. Because you missed why it is a diablo game and the fact that it is alsona mobile game.
    @MoDs Can we close this thread, because most of the criticism here is coming from people that are not playing the game and things will go nowhere near a productive conversation...
    I've played it, mid 30s on a wizard. It is a diablo themed game, but it is not diablo. Diablo was never an MMO with daily quests, login bonuses, paid battle passes, paid loot booster gambling, cash for crafting materials. All gear being a mindless flat gearscore, your build simply what skills you take and there is little to no real thinking or customization involved.

    Its a walking simulator with fetch quests, people afk through bosses. You get stuck competing for bounty targets running around empty zones. Kill 30 of a thing to get 10 quest item drops so you can run back to an NPC. 16 different stupid currency systems. Do they even know what diablo is?

    I don't know why anyone would bother downloading it on PC. Its a fine time killer on the toilet or bus as there aren't many ARPGs on mobile yet. But there are a dozen better ARPGs to play. including 3 real diablo games actually developed by Blizzard.


    Not that it means much anymore, Blizzard used to be known for quality. Now it's a cheap knockoff, money grabbing, outsourcing, out of touch, and overly touchy shell of it's former self.

    If I have anything good to say. it plays fairly well on a Pixel 2 which is a relic by mobile standards. The controls feel okay, and the menus aren't total ass.

    People wonder why companies and franchises go down hill, but they aren't willing to speak up when things are taking a turn. DI is a black mark on the companies portfolio. Just because shitty mobile developers did it first doesn't mean Blizzard had to follow suit. They could have done better, they have the brand recognization to stand out if/when they do right by the community. But again they choose to cash in on what little good will they may have left to fleece fans for short term gains.

    If they wanted to cash in on the P2W friendly chinese market, make a seperate client. GGG did with PoE and they don't have a fraction of the resources.

    The truth is no one at the company cares because anyone with passion left. This is what happens when games are designed around business first, developers doing a job for a paycheck. Not pushing back when monetization goes too far and gameplay suffers for it. it's soulless minimum viable product garbage that only serves to part fools from their money.
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