1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Seriously???
    What's up with all those things you buy for real money?

    Didn't everyone (players AND Blizzard) agree that RMAH was the single worst thing they had ever added to Diablo? Now they just added RMShop, which is pretty much the same as RMAH (since we all know that AH sells for Buy Out prices, it's more a shop that auction).
    It's a mobile game with a poor PC emulation (it's not even a proper port). The PC game will be D4 and we will get that in a couple of years.

    Also DI seems to be far less problematic than Diablo 3 was early on with the RMAH. With DI I still can progress without paying money, I'll just progress a bit more slowly. And as a mobile game I don't expect it to be designed for constant play and long sessions. With D3 you could grind for hours and get nothing decent, pretty much forcing you to buy your gear instead of actually playing for it.

  2. #482
    As soon Diablo 4 comes out, I am sure that everyone who called DI a "franchise killer" will play it on release.

    No doubt.

  3. #483
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,134
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    As soon Diablo 4 comes out, I am sure that everyone who called DI a "franchise killer" will play it on release.

    No doubt.
    Damn, we won't be able to login on release day like with D3!
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Holy shit PoE have done a clever job pretending to be good guys while making that amount of money in MTX.
    I don't think making money makes a gaming company evil, its necessary for continued development. As long as the customer is happy with what they got for their money, weren't strong armed into spending more through shady psychological tactics. And they aren't at an advantage when competing with non-paying players.

    The only "convenience" purchase in PoE as a hardcore efficiency driven player is a couple of premium stash tabs, which most people see as the full game price, or about $20 total. You would never need to buy anything again after that. Everything else is fluff. Some consider it the box price while the f2p thing is essentially an extremely generous trial that gives you access to all content and power at the same rate as someone paying into the game. Including 3-4 free expansions per year.

    I haven't actually spent anything on the game within the last year because I wasn't happy with the direction of some recent patches. It just accumulated as PoE has been my main game on and off since 2013. None of it was spent on consumables, subscriptions, anything temporary. It was all account wide and carried through multiple characters and expansions.

    They just kept adding cool looking cosmetic-only weapons, armor, skill effects, pets, hideouts (Player housing), etc. And I wanted to support the game since I have over 5,000 hours played and the content itself is completely free. I have many times more cosmetic MTX than I could ever possibly use, just so I can make themed sets to fit whatever build I decide to play.

    Not to mention all the physical goods that came bundled with the supporter packs. Instead of buying premium currency directly, there are packs that grant the value as premium currency and include various themed cosmetics specific to whatever expansion/league is current. With larger packs including signed art/posters/hoodies/t-shirts etc.

    Of course this is about pay to win, why would anyone want to pay to play a game less instead of buying a game they enjoy more. How you rank and perform in a game should be down to how much skill you have and time you invested and nothing else.

    I find the D3 RMAH comparison laughable because it exists here too. Or the notion we should expect less because it's a mobile game. It still has the diablo name on it, blizzards seal of approval, and a PC port.

    It exploits vulnerable groups for profit. full stop.

    My point with bringing up PoE is there are better ways to make big money as a free to play game, the only thing is it actually takes effort on the developers part, and blizzard clearly doesn't care about the fans. They rather lie to your face about not being able to pay for gear and then make you gamble for it. So not only are you paying to get ahead, you have to get lucky or it will cost you even more to get the same benefit as another paying player. It's gross on so many levels.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-05 at 06:00 PM.
    (This signature was clearly too awesome for the Avatar & Signature Guidelines and was removed to prevent further facemelting)

  5. #485
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    I don't think making money makes a gaming company evil, its necessary for continued development. As long as the customer is happy
    Exactly. Just take note that "the customer" means - the majority of players. Not you.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Holy shit PoE have done a clever job pretending to be good guys while making that amount of money in MTX.
    Yep. It's like I said before, it's all in how it's presented.

    People aren't nearly as principled as they think. Repackage something that they hated 5 minutes ago and they'll love it today.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Exactly. Just take note that "the customer" means - the majority of players. Not you.
    By your definition, if I sell someone a 'magical' plug-in device that claims to smooth electrical currents and lower their electricity bill, or a radioactive bracelet that is supposed to block "harmful" 5G signals, and they like it. That is okay? Heroin dealers have a lot of happy customers too. Prosperity theology is a pretty popular thing, give the televangelist some seed/faith money and pray, and god will multiply your money. We lose a lot of nuance by over generalizing arguments.

    All the game is doing is creating a problem so you can pay to overcome it. And the price tag isn't even set, it's a dice roll. Just so people who are susceptible to gambling addiction and sunk cost fallacy spend more.

    Player 1 gets the 5 star gem they wanted with $5, player 2 spends $2,500 and doesn't get it. Player 3 spends a year and a half logging in every day trying to grind it, and before it ever drops its made irrelevant by some new content, also invalidating all the money player 1 and 2 put into the game. No one is happy in the end except Blizzard & NetEase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Yep. It's like I said before, it's all in how it's presented.

    People aren't nearly as principled as they think. Repackage something that they hated 5 minutes ago and they'll love it today.
    By all means, please explain how Path of Exile and Diablo Immortals monetization are the same thing in different packaging.

    I'll admit, back in the day I was as outraged by horse armor as anyone else. But times change, and I can see the logic behind selling purely cosmetic game addons. I wish things where like the old days where cool armor only came from accomplishing impressive in-game feats. But I also like the fact modern games get support for year after year, often for free. Instead of having to buy the latest version of the game every year, pay for piecemeal expansions, or pay a subscription fee just for basic access. A few people can spend more, and more people can enjoy the game for free. It's a win-win.

    But I have never and will never budge on selling player power, and especially paying to gamble for it. Other franchises were ruined for me by the same practices. Star Trek Online, Payday 2, etc. I take no pleasure in bashing Blizzard, I want to see them do better. If I didn't care, I simply wouldn't be here.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-05 at 06:31 PM.
    (This signature was clearly too awesome for the Avatar & Signature Guidelines and was removed to prevent further facemelting)

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Suppose I'm lucky being from the Netherlands I can't even play it

    But from what I've read it sounds fucking crap anyway and looks like a cheap Diablo 3 clone so why bother.
    It's literally a slot machine. You can spend $25 per rift to get a chance for better gems. This game is going to make kids into lifelong gamblers.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    It's literally a slot machine. You can spend $25 per rift to get a chance for better gems. This game is going to make kids into lifelong gamblers.
    Eh it very much is not a slot machine. The psychological mechanism there depends entirely on the instantaneous nature of gratification. You still need to run the rift which takes a few minutes. The reward is dissociated from applying the crests; you get the gem when you kill the rift boss and open the chest. It is that mechanism that causes addiction.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Eh it very much is not a slot machine. The psychological mechanism there depends entirely on the instantaneous nature of gratification. You still need to run the rift which takes a few minutes. The reward is dissociated from applying the crests; you get the gem when you kill the rift boss and open the chest. It is that mechanism that causes addiction.
    It's a slot machine that takes 2 minutes for the spinners to line up instead of 5 seconds.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No one is looking for those suckers. Because suckers don't have a lot of money long term. It is a reason why scams are all short term - get as much money as you can and scram. Monetization in f2p games is LONG TERM. They need a constant stream of money. Because it's a business and not a scam. So they target people with MONEY and steady income.

    Also an average person doesn't exist. And the people who can be easily fooled and yet have enough brains to play the games - are a minority. And since no one is trying to fool them - I fail to see the problem

    Where I see the problem is in the pretext for unnecessary regulation. "To protect suckers". Fuck suckers. I don't want to suffer the very same regulations jsut because there are imaginary suckers who need protection.

    - - - Updated - - -


    You are making a moral judgemet without any authority in the matter.
    There is nothing unethical in any of those "practices".
    If you don't think that they are looking for the people that drop 20 bucks the first month and never return, you're just failing to even remotely look at the financials of the situation. Whales make up a small percent of the income.

    https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-ma...e-games-whales

    https://www.alistdaily.com/strategy/...les-marketing/

    https://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/03/the-...le-gaming.html

    Are just a few examples. Just because you think something is a certain way, doesn't mean that's how it is.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    It's a slot machine that takes 2 minutes for the spinners to line up instead of 5 seconds.
    Then it is not a slot machine. Clear associations between spending to pull the lever and getting rewarded are needed to create the effect. An Elder Rift (which usually takes about 4-5 minutes) breaks that by having multiple stages between expenditure and reward.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Eh it very much is not a slot machine. The psychological mechanism there depends entirely on the instantaneous nature of gratification. You still need to run the rift which takes a few minutes. The reward is dissociated from applying the crests; you get the gem when you kill the rift boss and open the chest. It is that mechanism that causes addiction.
    Guess you've never bought a lottery ticket and had to wait for the draw? I suppose lotto tickets aren't gambling either.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RWh6cxDKHY

    Look at those lights and sounds, seems pretty slot machine-y to me.

    We aren't talking about a passive magic find boost, like the one you get when you pay to find duplicate gems and use them to upgrade your main gem. There is clear cause and effect, buy crest, get loot. The delay keeps someone from doing it 1,000,000 times instantly. But spending that much money every 2 minutes, you're looking at a very expensive gaming session.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-05 at 06:44 PM.
    (This signature was clearly too awesome for the Avatar & Signature Guidelines and was removed to prevent further facemelting)

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No one is looking for those suckers. Because suckers don't have a lot of money long term. It is a reason why scams are all short term - get as much money as you can and scram. Monetization in f2p games is LONG TERM. They need a constant stream of money. Because it's a business and not a scam. So they target people with MONEY and steady income.
    Hmm the monetization scheme of DI is heavily upfront tbh. Yes there is long term revenue in currency purchases and battle pass purchases but there is much more to be spent in the first few playthroughs; the boons, that prodigy thing, all the dungeon bundles.

  15. #495
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    16,090
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Guess you've never bought a lottery ticket and had to wait for the draw? I guess lotto tickets aren't gambling either.
    You aren't doing anything with a lottery ticket. The argument you, and the other poster, are making means that any game mechanic with a reward is a slot machine since it doesn't matter how long it takes for the reward to occur. It also makes the silly assumption that addiction can only occur when spending money and shows that the problems are not about predatory things. As usual it comes down to "I can't do the same thing for free so it is bad and if I can do the same thing for free it wouldn't be bad"
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Guess you've never bought a lottery ticket and had to wait for the draw? I suppose lotto tickets aren't gambling either.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RWh6cxDKHY

    Look at those lights and sounds, seems pretty slot machine-y to me.
    There is so much nuance lost apparently. Slot machines are problematic because they create addiction through a specific neurological response. Not all gambling is slot machines and many forms of gambling depend on entirely different mechanisms that while also potentially addictive, are much less so.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Did NetEase develop Diablo 3? 4? 2? If no, then why would people compare this to developing the other games. Or think it took development time from a "real" Diablo..

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's not Blizzards fault you have a reading difficulty and thus find things confusing. Have you considered Farmville? Or Minesweeper.
    It's more about if mobile games make more money then the business model found in DI will leak into other games cause profits > everything to corporations.

  18. #498
    If a P2W game is mostly aiming at whales, then the target audiences for conventional games, and P2W games, are almost entirely separate. In that case, why shouldn't Blizzard chase both audiences? It's not a matter of P2W instead of conventional games, since there would still be a large audience that wants the latter.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  19. #499
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    16,090
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    It's more about if mobile games make more money then the business model found in DI will leak into other games cause profits > everything to corporations.
    Diablo Immortals model isn't new to the industry. If it was going to leak it would have already. Even then Blizzard released their first mobile title, Hearthstone, in 2014 so mobile monetization schemes and pay to win are not new to Blizzard.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #500
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,134
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    If you don't think that they are looking for the people that drop 20 bucks the first month and never return, you're just failing to even remotely look at the financials of the situation. Whales make up a small percent of the income.

    https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-ma...e-games-whales

    https://www.alistdaily.com/strategy/...les-marketing/

    https://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/03/the-...le-gaming.html

    Are just a few examples. Just because you think something is a certain way, doesn't mean that's how it is.
    Like read them before linking or something

    From the first example: "According to data, in most top-grossing games, the whales represent the smallest percentage of users who are responsible for up to 50% or more in revenue sales of an app."

    I had this information back in 2015. Thanks, for letting me know that nothing changed.

    As for people who drop $20 and never return... The majority of people who never return - don't pay at all. And people who pay and leave is actually a problem that doesn't have a definitive solution. And developers will listen to those people way more than to those who doesn't pay. Because people who pay are actually the target audience.

    You think devs want them to never return. And that's silly from the financial point of view. The market is limited. Retention is one of the important (the most important after acquisition) metrics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hmm the monetization scheme of DI is heavily upfront tbh. Yes there is long term revenue in currency purchases and battle pass purchases but there is much more to be spent in the first few playthroughs; the boons, that prodigy thing, all the dungeon bundles.
    It's been out just days. Considering it's already made into $1M - expect seasons, events, etc. It's hardly a D7 cash grab.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •