1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It's like you didn't even read the rest of my post.

    That applies only to time you could/would ACTUALLY EXCHANGE. It's not a simple equation that presupposes ALL TIME is exchangeable.

    Because it isn't.

    Your statement is completely inane, what's next "you know, reading a bedtime story to your kid cost you $14.50". NO IT DIDN'T. That's not time that is available. To make that equivalence is fallacious and absurd.

    You're displaying a completely ludicrous lack of understanding of basic economics. The value of ones time can be, and is, computed all the time. This has meaning even if you aren't exchanging it. Time is something that's available in limited supply for each of us, and economics is all about the value of things under this sort of scarcity.

    If you have ever decided if it was worth doing something one way or another, and you took the times involved into account, you were implicitly assigning a value to your time.

    I understand that the realization that you've blown enormous amounts of value in playing a game can be disconcerting, if you don't think the game was actually worth what that time should have been worth to you.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  2. #862
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Go spend it doing something worthwhile. If you want to spend it playing a game, there is TONS of good game options right now or better yet go develop a skill or learn something. Don't spend it on this shitty shallow game, that supports a shitty company, soon to be full of just shitty addicts and whales playing it.
    Then shouldn't you be spending it on something worthwhile rather then discussing a terrible game? It is almost as if people can enjoy different things and have decided to spend their time on something they enjoy. Just because you also wouldn't enjoy it doesn't mean they are wrong for deciding to spend their time on that thing.

    If all of Blizzards games are full of addicts and whales then so be it. Why is that a concern of you? Move on.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So are we just ignoring the selling of skins whose entire purpose exists just to drain money? It is amusing how things are different when you like the game.
    Dude, it's literally just skins.

    You don't need to buy new characters, you can't buy stronger characters or better versions of gear.
    You can still play the full entire game without purchasing a skin.

    You cannot play the full entire Diablo Immortal game as it currently exists unless you spend a ton of real world money on the game. There's just a time gated one per month cap on Legendary Crests which are needed to progress your character unless you drop real money. If you do drop real money, you can buy infinite amounts of them. Do you not see the obvious problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If all of Blizzards games are full of addicts and whales then so be it. Why is that a concern of you? Move on.
    It's a concern because other companies will see it as an option for them to make money and will start doing this.

    If one company gets away with it, then others will follow suite. We won't have games without MTX because every game will eventually have MTX. Snip that shit in the bud before it has a chance to grow into anything. That's why people are complaining.

  4. #864
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Dude, it's literally just skins.
    And? They still exist to drain money from consumers and they use predatory things like loot boxes and fear of missing out in order to sell more. And again you can play the full DI game as it currently exists with out spending a single cent on the game. Stop spreading misinformation about the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's a concern because other companies will see it as an option for them to make money and will start doing this. If one company gets away with it, then others will follow suite. We won't have games without MTX because every game will eventually have MTX. Snip that shit in the bud before it has a chance to grow into anything. That's why people are complaining.
    Thousands of companies have already gotten away with it. You, and the other poster, spending time discussing it on these forums isn't going to stop any companies from going down that path. It is hilarious that you think you are fighting some righteous fight against the evil of game development by discussing here. It has also already grown into stuff because this is nothing new for the gaming industry or mobile gaming. lmao.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I don't think it's nonsense. People are shadily induced into spending money on P2W games; people are similarly shadily induced into spending time on grindy games.

    If you argue "people are freely choosing to grind so it must be fun", I will respond "people are freely choosing to spend $$$$ on the P2W game, so that must be fun."
    I don't think that argument is quite the same, but I do see where you're coming from to some regard.

    The pay to win stuff in Immortal is different because it's not only actively costing you real money, but it's also usually still costing you time as well. Like in the case of Immortal, you aren't actually paying to skip playing the game. You're paying to skip the arbitrary time gating.

    Example is like... if you're somebody who is trying to farm for a 5 star legendary gem, you PHYSICALLY cannot obtain one unless you use a Legendary Crest and put it into an Elder Rift. The rift itself takes about 2-5 minutes to complete.
    If you are playing the game Free to Play, you are strictly limited to being only able to buy ONE Legendary Crest per month. Doesn't matter if you logged in, bought one Crest, completed the rift, and then logged out for 30 days or if you played 8 hours a day every single day for those 30 days. You are still only going to get one chance (a low chance at that) to get a 5 star gem.

    Or you can spend about 3 bucks per crest to buy as many as you want at any period in time as you want. You still have to complete the rifts, but you skip the arbitrary ingame timer that says you aren't allowed to farm more.

    It would sorta be like if you could spend $40 a week to reset your raid lockout so you can get twice as much loot as the people who don't pay any money to do so.
    You aren't buying extra loot, you're buying the opportunity to go back in and spend 3 hours clearing the raid for a second chance at loot.
    Last edited by Hctaz; 2022-06-07 at 03:59 AM.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It shows that Blizzard/Netease has not given favor to those who pay their way. They reduce their power in the name of balance. There is no indication that they made things harder to acquire in order to create value.
    You can spend 10 years grinding a character or one month and six figures to reach the same point. (If we ignore all the mechanics which are paid-only)

    I explained the logic to you, if you want to be deliberately obtuse that's on you. You can argue it isn't AS skewed, then we get into subjective values and what I think is a fair amount versus what you think. But to deny it's skewed at all? Come on.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And? They still exist to drain money from consumers and they use predatory things like loot boxes and fear of missing out in order to sell more.
    "Then don't buy them, play the game for free or move on", at least you won't be slower in progression, kicked from a clan, or weaker in PvP because you don't own a skin.


    P.S. Believe it or not, we're not all flat out anti-blizzard. I was okay with Overwatch and Heroes of the Storms monetization. I would even argue HoTs was a better game for its genre than LoL.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-07 at 04:05 AM.
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  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You're displaying a completely ludicrous lack of understanding of basic economics. The value of ones time can be, and is, computed all the time. This has meaning even if you aren't exchanging it. Time is something that's available in limited supply for each of us, and economics is all about the value of things under this sort of scarcity.

    If you have ever decided if it was worth doing something one way or another, and you took the times involved into account, you were implicitly assigning a value to your time.

    I understand that the realization that you've blown enormous amounts of value in playing a game can be disconcerting, if you don't think the game was actually worth what that time should have been worth to you.
    Evaluating everything in your life like this is a quick way to fall into terrible depression or psychotic episode! No mentally sound person sits around evaluating every minute of every day in terms of "how much is this minute worth to me?" It's like peering behind the veil in an incredibly unhealthy way lmao

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Game mechanics are not skewed in DI though. The developers even created the strife debuff. "Bonuses from Legendary Gems, Magic and Breakthrough Affixes, and other percentage effects reduced while fighting players". So they went out of their way to balance the game between those who pay and those who don't. Or those who advance higher and those who don't.
    I'll be honest, I never tried PvP before I uninstalled. But with the barest amount of research, that proved to be a big lie.

    https://youtu.be/Zdz4JOAR8pE
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  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    The game is shallow trash with a strong emphasis on presentation and making it as easy as possible to play to mask it all.

    The game pretty much plays itself.

    Combat is ability spam. You don't even really need to aim, since it's auto lock on you can just press the button. As long as you keep abilities on CD, it's only possible to lose if you're a total idiot.

    They tell you exactly where to go and what to do pretty much at all times.

    Gearing consists of equipping stuff with a green arrow on it and upgrading gems/gear when you can.

    This game is actual rat in a maze garbage with all the worst aspects of game monetization and designed to milk addicts and whales.

    And they turned Diablo into a cheap theme park.

    Company has completely traded its soul for money.
    Gotta say, of all the responses, this one is the most accurate depiction of the game.

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    You can spend 10 years grinding a character or one month and six figures to reach the same point. (If we ignore all the mechanics which are paid-only)

    I explained the logic to you, if you want to be deliberately obtuse that's on you. You can argue it isn't AS skewed, then we get into subjective values and what I think is a fair amount versus what you think. But to deny it's skewed at all? Come on.



    "Then don't buy them, play the game for free or move on", at least you won't be slower in progression, kicked from a clan, or weaker in PvP because you don't own a skin.


    P.S. Believe it or not, we're not all flat out anti-blizzard. I was okay with Overwatch and Heroes of the Storms monetization. I would even argue HoTs was a better game for its genre than LoL.
    I've seen him do exactly that in past, blazes right past your point to pick the grain of sand that was cut just at different angle so clearly you must be wrong. Never minding the radioactive mole hill he just sits on.

    In the end its either spending months to years or as said spend the money. Either way I walked away from activizard long long ago and havent looked back.
    Fate is one you forge with your own two hands.

  11. #871
    I want to find a discount code for mmo-Champion. Is there any discount code here?

  12. #872
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    You can spend 10 years grinding a character or one month and six figures to reach the same point. (If we ignore all the mechanics which are paid-only) I explained the logic to you, if you want to be deliberately obtuse that's on you. You can argue it isn't AS skewed, then we get into subjective values and what I think is a fair amount versus what you think. But to deny it's skewed at all? Come on.
    That isn't logic but a fact. I haven't disputed that you can grind or buy. The entire point of playing a ARPG is to grind for upgrades. It doesn't matter how long it takes. For example there people still trying to get mounts to drop after 12+ years in WoW. Grinding and upgrades take time is a standard feature of the genre and it is silly to suddenly make that out to be a bad thing just because you can also pay to speed it up.


    "Then don't buy them, play the game for free or move on", at least you won't be slower in progression, kicked from a clan, or weaker in PvP because you don't own a skin.
    Fear mongering. Could it happen? Sure. But it is more likely that you won't be kicked from a clan, you won't be that much weaker in PvP (brackets exist so match making might take those into account) and you won't have drastically slower progression. You act as if Legendary gems are the only method to gain power in Diablo Immortal. They are not. You can also get more then 3 per month because you can earn runes from elder rifts that allow you to craft legendary gems.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then shouldn't you be spending it on something worthwhile rather then discussing a terrible game? It is almost as if people can enjoy different things and have decided to spend their time on something they enjoy. Just because you also wouldn't enjoy it doesn't mean they are wrong for deciding to spend their time on that thing.

    If all of Blizzards games are full of addicts and whales then so be it. Why is that a concern of you? Move on.
    It's a concern for me because the vast majority of it is bad for humanity and sets a bad precedent for the industry, which I don't want to see get worse.

    They are wrong for spending their time on it.

    The reason being there are tons of things any of these people playing would objectively enjoy more or be more fulfilling for them than this shitty game.

    And the reason they don't do them is 1) because the company is manipulating and exploiting them 2) laziness and inconvenience 3) fear


    I won't interfere with them if they choose to waste their time on something stupid, it's their life and I do stupid shit to (like spend time on this shitty forum when I watch tv shows)

    But I will speak out about it and low lives, like you seem to be, won't stop me.

  14. #874
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    I'll be honest, I never tried PvP before I uninstalled. But with the barest amount of research, that proved to be a big lie. https://youtu.be/Zdz4JOAR8pE
    That doesn't prove anything because the person was also Paragon 8 and none of their other stats were inspected on video. Only the legendary gem ranks. There are more then just those that go into power of a character so you didn't prove anything to be a lie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chromeshellking View Post
    In the end its either spending months to years or as said spend the money. Either way I walked away from activizard long long ago and havent looked back.
    Again, what is wrong with that? Why is it bad that it might take you months to years to get best in slot? Isn't the whole point of this genre, ARPG, to grind out gear upgrades? There were people still playing Diablo 2 before the remaster so it is clear that even in a game with no official pay to win it will retain people that want to play for years.

    Could it be better with out pay to win or with lower costs? Certainly. Is it that big of a deal that it takes a while to get max stuff while free? Not at all. But it is easier to attack my posting habits then make any compelling argument, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    It's a concern for me because the vast majority of it is bad for humanity and sets a bad precedent for the industry, which I don't want to see get worse.
    It doesn't set any precedent because this isn't the first time it has happened in the industry. Lmao. Stop being concerned with what is bad for humanity and start focusing on what is good for yourself. You don't know what others would objectively enjoy more because you are not them.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That isn't logic but a fact. I haven't disputed that you can grind or buy. The entire point of playing a ARPG is to grind for upgrades. It doesn't matter how long it takes. For example there people still trying to get mounts to drop after 12+ years in WoW. Grinding and upgrades take time is a standard feature of the genre and it is silly to suddenly make that out to be a bad thing just because you can also pay to speed it up.
    The logic behind why a grind that was doable in a few months in another version of Diablo and why it now takes several years. And on balance because the game hasn't been out for 10 years, but you can reach that level of progression with money. And it clearly has an impact on PvP: https://youtu.be/Zdz4JOAR8pE

    Mounts weren't the primary point of WoW and didn't you an advantage in any part of the game. But guess what, if tomorrow Blizzard added Mimiron's head, Invincibles reigns, or the Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal to the cash store, people would lose their minds, and rightfully so. Because it devalues the time they already put into the game and makes those accomplishments meaningless. Your comparison makes no sense.
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  16. #876
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Your comparison makes no sense.
    So people can only enjoy farming things for years when it isn't a primary focus of the game? Or is it just because you say so? Isn't it strange how in once instance you say grinding for years is bad yet in the other say it is perfectly fine? Blizzard has also devalued things like TCG loot cards by adding them to the game or tying them to promotions. A few did complain but the vast majority didn't care.

    Also it doesn't matter how quickly a grind was done in another version of Diablo. They are different games. But there are still people that were playing and grinding for things in Diablo 2 after decades so your are not even making the point you think you are.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #877
    I'm Paragon 5 and can confidently say that this game is trash tier. In Hell I, you are unable to do dungeons solo anymore and you're required to join groups. It's an abrupt and sudden change. You can't even do hidden lairs anymore by yourself. It gets worse at later difficulties when you're required to have 4 players - and there aren't even a whole lot of people to play with at that level and if you do find someone, one person will leave after 1-2 runs. The game just gates you for player numbers for no reason at all. We should be able to do Hell dungeons alone as usual.

    As for the P2W, it definitely ruins PvP. The Battleground mode is actually fun - the issue is when whales run around 21-0 it kind of ruins the fun. And the top of the ladder gets to be Immortal. You get the picture, it's simply unenjoyable.

    Lastly, the gacha is atrocious. I'm a gacha gamer, I play plenty of them, but this whole concept of a 5-star gem and a 5-star 5-star gem is absurd. When you hit 50 legendary crests you trigger a pity to recieve a 5-star gem, the issue is you're 75% of the time going to get a 2-star 5-star gem instead of you know... anything useful. Higher star gems grant way more resonance and combat rating which boost you so much. That's the whole point of trying to get these gems.

    A minor annoyance is the dynamic scaling. As you gear up, it's hard to notice any difference in clearspeeds etc as the enemies scale with you. The biggest way to notice a damage increase is of course to... spend money and get resonance. That's it.

    This entire game is designed to screw you over and make you want to spend. It's such a shame because the base game is actually fun. I spent 500 bucks and would've spent so much more if the model wasn't so bad, I'll just take my money somewhere else instead.

    I'll keep playing until the game gets boring.

  18. #878
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    This entire game is designed to screw you over and make you want to spend. It's such a shame because the base game is actually fun. I spent 500 bucks and would've spent so much more if the model wasn't so bad, I'll just take my money somewhere else instead.
    Doesn't this just show that it isn't the game being designed to make you want to spend but that you don't like the costs of the game? And if the costs were lower it would still be designed to make you want to spend and screw over those that don't equally spend?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  19. #879
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Mounts weren't the primary point of WoW and didn't you an advantage in any part of the game. But guess what, if tomorrow Blizzard added Mimiron's head, Invincibles reigns, or the Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal to the cash store, people would lose their minds, and rightfully so. Because it devalues the time they already put into the game and makes those accomplishments meaningless. Your comparison makes no sense.
    I'm sure there will be idiots crying about that, but your argument is silly.
    Nothing is devalued. Because when you get a rare drop - that's the value. And you have it. It's in your memory. Someone else getting the same lucky drop - doesn't devalue your accomplishment. So if Blizzard decides to sell it directly - it doesn't devalue anything. That's just histrionics on your part.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is irrelelvant. It shows that Blizzard/Netease has not given favor to those who pay their way. They reduce their power in the name of balance. There is no indication that they made things harder to acquire in order to create value. Besides from the amount of people whining about it that are not even interested in playing the game it shows they have inherent value of their own, right? Otherwise you wouldn't have devoted so much time over something that has no value, right?

    If neither works when you want to sell power to give the paying player an advantage then they wouldn't have the Strife debuff that scales better geared players down, right? You defeat your entire post with that one statement.
    .....

    what?

    lmao.
    You do realize that whenever you die in this game, they tell you to "get gud" and get better gear, right?
    It's not a friendly reminder on how to improve. It's meant to lure you into the shop.

    It's literally telling you to spend money, so you can be as awesome as the guy that just killed you in PvP.
    And do you actually know what the pvp-scalings does? It's not setting your combat rating to equal levels.

    Lets not pretend that this game doesn't incentivize players to spend money, please.
    You can be fine with it for all I care... but they aren't trying to sell you the product by making the product itself good or enjoyable.
    They try to sell you the product by making you feel miserable and then they tell you: "you need this worthless thing we just made up to be happy again"
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-07 at 05:37 AM.

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