Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Elim Garak]

I would say that most whales are funded by viewers / players who themselves might hate the shop, which is kind of ironic tbh.

That's true for everything in this world. Everything can be exploited. Even the hate can be exploited to promote the very thing being hated.

Just live and let live, people. Don't join "hate-hype" groups if you don't want to be exploited.

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Oh he is winning, he's years ahead of any free player. Just not even a fraction of how powerful he could be if he paid more.

Oh really? You are the master napkin mathematician here. Please enlighten us how much money would it take to 100% guarantee that he will win. And I mean jsut the money to spend in the game's shop. Obviously Elon Musk can just buy out the entire game (or Blizzard itself) and change his character to be god in it.

[chiddie]

Oh he is winning, he's years ahead of any free player. Just not even a fraction of how powerful he could be if he paid more.




Sounds like as time goes on he's doing worse and worse and if nothing changes the game will probably die. Despite having a decent campaign experience and story.

https://youtu.be/rgSj80xXx4M

It all depends on your goal. If you wanna top the lbds (especially PvP) it will probably be 100% NOT doable unless you pay.

The average joe (hello, that’s me) can however have his chunks of fun without spending a penny (or just with the 5 buck empowered battle pass).

[Jerot]

The game guarantees a 5 star gem every 50 legendary crests. If he just got the dungeon bundles and the three boons, which would be much less than 1k, he would already have 50 legendary crests. So maybe Quin is not particularly intelligent in how he invests his money. If he is paying anything and it's not all paid by BLizzard.

1 star gems are always 1 star, 2 star gems are always 2 star.

A 5 star gem drop can drop as a 2-5 star gem, you are never guaranteed 5 stars. The only way to get 5-star gems is with crests. The pity system could give you a 2, 3 or 4 star version of a 5 star gem.

[Kumorii]

That's true for everything in this world. Everything can be exploited. Even the hate can be exploited to promote the very thing being hated.

Just live and let live, people. Don't join "hate-hype" groups if you don't want to be exploited.

It absolutely is. Just pointing out the hypocrisy that people are so vehemently against something and then in the same breath supports it... if you are against something, don't encourage it. Which is more effective than being loud about being against it. Which is all these threads are in essence. A soapbox.

As an example, if you are against the shop, don't watch Quin, unsub and don't give him more money to support the shop.
I'm sure he will change quickly when he realise he can't earn money from doing so. Which in turn makes a huge impact on the game itself when enough streamers and player do this. But yeah, some are thinking Quin is EXPOSING the shop, which is absurd.

[Elim Garak]

It absolutely is. Just pointing out the hypocrisy that people are so vehemently against something and then in the same breath supports it... if you are against something, don't encourage it. Which is more effective than being loud about being against it. Which is all these threads are in essence. A soapbox.

As an example, if you are against the shop, don't watch Quin, unsub and don't give him more money to support the shop.
I'm sure he will change quickly when he realise he can't earn money from doing so. Which in turn makes a huge impact on the game itself when enough streamers and player do this. But yeah, some are thinking Quin is EXPOSING the shop, which is absurd.

Another example, I didn't plan to play Diablo Immortal, but after all this hate I installed it on my phone and it's a good game lol )

[Kumorii]

Another example, I didn't plan to play Diablo Immortal, but after all this hate I installed it on my phone and it's a good game lol )

Yeah, the game is good. I enjoy it too. Think I'll lose interest at max level though. Because it feels like it will be just like lost ark. Where you can't progress easily without paying. But for now it's cool.

I'm also debating if I should show some support because I do think Devs deserve money if I enjoy the game. But at the same time I don't want to support the shop. So now I'm torn if spending like 20 bucks once means I support the shop or I support the game. Not really sure how that'll be seen tbh.

[Elim Garak]

Yeah, the game is good. I enjoy it too. Think I'll lose interest at max level though. Because it feels like it will be just like lost ark. Where you can't progress easily without paying. But for now it's cool.

I'm also debating if I should show some support because I do think Devs deserve money if I enjoy the game. But at the same time I don't want to support the shop. So now I'm torn if spending like 20 bucks once means I support the shop or I support the game. Not really sure how that'll be seen tbh.

Think of it this way - a free game cannot get support any other way than thu the shop. That's why there is the shop in the first place. So it all boils down - whether you want to support the game. It's your money, your decision. Another point - after you pay in the game - you become a relevant customer to the devs. Your feedback (and metrics) will have weight (proportionally to the amount paid obviously - p2w is everywhere lol)

[chiddie]

most people wont spend even a single cent on that game starting with - they will play it for couple of hours and be bored and done.

thats what i did - leveld necromancer to 60 folled around on other classes to 20 and im already bored and done with it

didnt spend a single cent - had really a lot of fun

and yes its very very good mobile phones game.

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well thats because you have so many old gamers now with way to much disposable $$$ who dont mind blowing it on cyber goodies the same way some people spend money on cigarets / alcohol / drugs etc.

Also add that nerding on a videogame 4+ hours a day is considered legit and healthy while paying every now and then to skip part of the nerding is considered non legit and unhealthy.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, the game is good. I enjoy it too. Think I'll lose interest at max level though. Because it feels like it will be just like lost ark. Where you can't progress easily without paying. But for now it's cool.

I'm also debating if I should show some support because I do think Devs deserve money if I enjoy the game. But at the same time I don't want to support the shop. So now I'm torn if spending like 20 bucks once means I support the shop or I support the game. Not really sure how that'll be seen tbh.

You can always buy the cheapest version of the battle pass. It's like a reasonable sub and it gives a little bit of everything.

[Jerot]

Another example, I didn't plan to play Diablo Immortal, but after all this hate I installed it on my phone and it's a good game lol )

Most people are in agreement the core experience is pretty good for a mobile game.

The issue was always the monetization because of how it disrupts balance and makes the power scaling so money dependent that there is no reason to play it any way other than casually.
You just hit a progression wall where the only meaningful upgrade is legendary gems, and your free access amounts to a limited demo of a paid feature. PvP/in-world interactions will become less enjoyable the longer your server exists, as P2W players get further and further ahead.

Also add that nerding on a videogame 4+ hours a day is considered legit and healthy while paying every now and then to skip part of the nerding is considered non legit and unhealthy.

Because one is a game that makes people want to spend 4+ hours playing it, and the other is a game that makes people want to pay to not play it.

It's like if a movie released as a 20 hour unedited cut full of junk and advertisements and you had to pay extra to get the 1h 30m "actual movie" edition. Instead of charging for behind the scenes, director commentary, collectibles, or an extended cut.

[Kumorii]

Think of it this way - a free game cannot get support any other way than thu the shop. That's why there is the shop in the first place. So it all boils down - whether you want to support the game. It's your money, your decision. Another point - after you pay in the game - you become a relevant customer to the devs. Your feedback (and metrics) will have weight (proportionally to the amount paid obviously - p2w is everywhere lol)

Yeah I know. It's just difficult to show you support the game while not supporting the shop when the only way to show support for the game is through the shop

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You can always buy the cheapest version of the battle pass. It's like a reasonable sub and it gives a little bit of everything.

the problem isn't what to spend it on, it's how it'll be perceived by the devs. I'm afraid it'll be seen as I support said monetisation.
Wonder if I should send feedback somehow explaining I want to show support, but not wanting to show support for their shop.

[Elim Garak]

Most people are in agreement the core experience is pretty good for a mobile game.

That's the only thing that matters to most people.

The issue was always the monetization because of how it disrupts balance and makes the power scaling so money dependent that there is no reason to play it any way other than casually.

There is no issue for most people and there is no disruption in balance, power scaling etc.
It's all in your head if you think about it - a feedback loop. You think about it - it's in your head - you think about it more - you see it everywhere - you think about it even more - it's in your head.

You just hit a progression wall where the only meaningful upgrade is legendary gems, and your free access amounts to a limited demo of a paid feature. PvP/in-world interactions will become less enjoyable the longer your server exists, as P2W players get further and further ahead.

There's no progression wall. A progression wall is also called a paywall - and a paywall has always been "You must empty your wallet before venturing forth" - like you cannot actually proceed until you pay - there are no paywalls in Diablo Immortals - well not to my knowledge.

In a free to play game - paying customer is always ahead - and no one ever have been able to prove that it's a bad thing because it would be akin to proving that commerce and economy is a bad thing - and only commies think like that.

[Nymrohd]

the problem isn't what to spend it on, it's how it'll be perceived by the devs. I'm afraid it'll be seen as I support said monetisation.
Wonder if I should send feedback somehow explaining I want to show support, but not wanting to show support for their shop.

That's why I suggested the battle pass one. Because you only really get the reward from that (or if you'd want to spend more, the prodigy one) if you actually play the game. They just improve the rewards you get for playing the game further instead of just giving you things now and letting you skip the game.

[Mendzia]

well thats because you have so many old gamers now with way to much disposable $$$ who dont mind blowing it on cyber goodies the same way some people spend money on cigarets / alcohol / drugs etc.

Yes, becuase the money i won't use on this dogshit greedy game i will totally waste on drugs (i never tried it and never will), alcohol (i drink once for around 3 months) and cigaretes (i do not smoke and even hate when other person close to me do that).
Great argument... now i wait for 'but other mobile games also do this so it is ok' one.

[BeepBoo]

In a free to play game - paying customer is always ahead - and no one ever have been able to prove that it's a bad thing because it would be akin to proving that commerce and economy is a bad thing - and only commies think like that.

People typically play competitive games and sports specifically to CIRCUMVENT p2w and leave it in the hands of skill.

"But diablo isn't competitive!" Anything that has any type of stick measuring and differing outcomes based on power is competitive or will have a competitive following of some sort, even if it wasn't intended to be that in the first place (which diablo immortal absolutely is competitive in part).

Your success in a game shouldn't be tied to your income.

Also, LoL is f2p and paying customers are basically never ahead. You can unlock everything basically as soon as it's available if you're a regular player. Even then, unlocking every character in the game costs no where near as much as getting good stats in diablo.

Really, the only game genre you're talking about are mobile-based games with gacha mechanics or other artificial limitations and p2w aspects.

[Kumorii]

There's no progression wall. A progression wall is also called a paywall - and a paywall has always been "You must empty your wallet before venturing forth" - like you cannot actually proceed until you pay - there are no paywalls in Diablo Immortals - well not to my knowledge.

In a free to play game - paying customer is always ahead - and no one ever have been able to prove that it's a bad thing because it would be akin to proving that commerce and economy is a bad thing - and only commies think like that.

Afaik there are daily limits to things which you can bypass if you pay. Lost Ark have the same. You can do maybe 2-3 runs after that you gain nothing unless you pay for "tickets" that grant you rewards.
So it's sort of a paywall, but it's not stopping you from playing, but you hardly gain any progression from it.
Elder Rifts are at least working like that, you gain crests daily, but then you have to buy more crests. You can still run the rift, but you gain no runes whatsoever, which is the reason to run the rift. etc etc.

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That's why I suggested the battle pass one. Because you only really get the reward from that (or if you'd want to spend more, the prodigy one) if you actually play the game. They just improve the rewards you get for playing the game further instead of just giving you things now and letting you skip the game.

Ah right, I see. Seems like the best option tbh.
I also got a survey invitation so planning on giving feedback there, shame the UI for it is horrible on PC and mouse disappears after a few seconds so it's a pain to navigate it.
The PC port is pretty good but have some severe issues, like my keybindings stop working until I press another ability or I have to go into settings menu and close it

[ClassicPeon]

Nothing about the OP is giving feedback. It also shows inaccuracies. Besides do you honestly believe that any amount of feedback will remove the monetization method from a mobile game that is released? Blizzard didn't take a huge nosedive with the announcement of Diablo Immortal. Stop being overly dramatic because they made a second mobile game. Remember Hearthstone was their first mobile game that is heavily monetized as well and yet it doesn't get hate because it didn't become a meme with its announcement.

Also I am sure your daughter and son wouldn't have this game on their tablet even it it didn't have pay to win. Because you already implied the game was bad with its announcement before any pay to win was known. So again stop being overly dramatic and using your kids to prop up your claim. Lol.

Ofcourse they did. If you didnt see the nosedive that the diablo immortal reveal gave them then you are absolutely blind. I dont think i've ever seen a more failed reveal of a game ever. Stop lying to yourself. Or at least stop making me laugh that you think you can convince me you arent lying to yourself.

I havent said there is amything wrong with making a mobile game. And hearthstone actually had several controversies with its monitization system and the fact that you dont know that shows you are just making shit up on the go.

I havent implied the game is bad? Do you always need to make strawmans when you try to argue? Is "stop being dramatic" your go to sentence for when you cant actually set up a simple argument?

[KrayZ33]

I find the "but it's free" argument to be counterproductive for us, the consumer.

It doesn't take long to figure out that this game could be better, but isn't due to the monetization model.
It's not like any of you guys wouldn't enjoy it even more if the 5* gems would be more readily available, because it most likely (I wouldn't know, lmao, but ask those that spent 500+$ on this game, and they seem to agree) is more fun to play with those.
The power spikes, the extra resonance etc. It's stuff you will most likely never get to enjoy in the same way because it's *designed* to be behind a paywall and designed to make you spend money.

Or to take a look at another game where it's more "obvious" yet also not important to "clearing" the game, but it's really not a single bit different:

Genshin Impact character constellations.

as a F2P, you'll have to decide between getting the characters you want and getting *a* character you want with all the abilities unlocked, that are in some cases changing how the characters can be played as and with whom they share a synergy.
It's great that you can Genshin Impact for free. It really is. It's also great that you can play D:I for free. But the monetization model is made in a way that a "dolphin" or normal human being that is willing to pay 50-60€ on a game (or even 100€) won't achieve *anything*. It's like a drop of water on a hot stone. It doesn't make a difference. It's irrelevant.

You get to enjoy a worse version of the game. Your *gameplay* is affected by this. This isn't just about skins or goodies. You play a different kind of game than the guy who spends 1000€ on this and the game is made to be that way. It starts with QoL improvements and goes all the way over to the actual gameplay.

I'm just happy that this is just a mobile game.

[Jerot]

https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Sp...s7CrQsxBkiINTu

No gambling elements by the way. Definitely not a slot machine.

[Nymrohd]

Afaik there are daily limits to things which you can bypass if you pay. Lost Ark have the same. You can do maybe 2-3 runs after that you gain nothing unless you pay for "tickets" that grant you rewards.
So it's sort of a paywall, but it's not stopping you from playing, but you hardly gain any progression from it.
Elder Rifts are at least working like that, you gain crests daily, but then you have to buy more crests. You can still run the rift, but you gain no runes whatsoever, which is the reason to run the rift. etc etc.

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Ah right, I see. Seems like the best option tbh.
I also got a survey invitation so planning on giving feedback there, shame the UI for it is horrible on PC and mouse disappears after a few seconds so it's a pain to navigate it.
The PC port is pretty good but have some severe issues, like my keybindings stop working until I press another ability or I have to go into settings menu and close it

There is a reason to run rifts even with no crests tbh. It's a fast way to level battle pass and you may get the quest to do 6 Elder Rifts.

On the PC port I personally have issues with the UI. I keep clicking parts of the UI during hectic combat.

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https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Sp...s7CrQsxBkiINTu

No gambling elements by the way. Definitely not a slot machine.

Indeed, it's not a slot machine. Because expressions have specific meanings! Glad we agreed

Please watch some other streamer btw. You are obviously addicted.