Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Caerrona]

I find the "but it's free" argument to be counterproductive for us, the consumer.

It doesn't take long to figure out that this game could be better, but isn't due to the monetization model.
It's not like any of you guys wouldn't enjoy it even more if the 5* gems would be more readily available, because it most likely (I wouldn't know, lmao, but ask those that spent 500+$ on this game, and they seem to agree) is more fun to play with those.
The power spikes, the extra resonance etc. It's stuff you will most likely never get to enjoy in the same way because it's *designed* to be behind a paywall and designed to make you spend money.

Or to take a look at another game where it's more "obvious" yet also not important to "clearing" the game, but it's really not a single bit different:

Genshin Impact character constellations.

as a F2P, you'll have to decide between getting the characters you want and getting *a* character you want with all the abilities unlocked, that are in some cases changing how the characters can be played as and with whom they share a synergy.
It's great that you can Genshin Impact for free. It really is. It's also great that you can play D:I for free. But the monetization model is made in a way that a "dolphin" or normal human being that is willing to pay 50-60€ on a game (or even 100€) won't achieve *anything*. It's like a drop of water on a hot stone. It doesn't make a difference. It's irrelevant.

You get to enjoy a worse version of the game. Your *gameplay* is affected by this. This isn't just about skins or goodies. You play a different kind of game than the guy who spends 1000€ on this and the game is made to be that way. It starts with QoL improvements and goes all the way over to the actual gameplay.

I'm just happy that this is just a mobile game.

I'm not playing a worse version of the game because I'm not an insecure piece of garbage worried about other players.

I was also raised correctly (I guess? Somehow this isn't common knowledge?) I don't
A) voluntarily do optional things I don't enjoy
B) while doing those completely voluntary optional things, come and cry my heart out on mmo-c

This is wow 2.0 with morons going full retard "OMFG BLIZZ MADE ME DOWNLOAD IT AND HAS A GUN TO MY HEAD TO BUY GEMS OMG HELP"

[Nymrohd]

Btw I wonder if we will face Diablo in a later update. Or even an archangel.

[chiddie]

Most people are in agreement the core experience is pretty good for a mobile game.

The issue was always the monetization because of how it disrupts balance and makes the power scaling so money dependent that there is no reason to play it any way other than casually.
You just hit a progression wall where the only meaningful upgrade is legendary gems, and your free access amounts to a limited demo of a paid feature. PvP/in-world interactions will become less enjoyable the longer your server exists, as P2W players get further and further ahead.



Because one is a game that makes people want to spend 4+ hours playing it, and the other is a game that makes people want to pay to not play it.

It's like if a movie released as a 20 hour unedited cut full of junk and advertisements and you had to pay extra to get the 1h 30m "actual movie" edition. Instead of charging for behind the scenes, director commentary, collectibles, or an extended cut.

Reasons are irrelevant in my example. A thing is either healthy or it’s not, it does not become healthy or unhealthy basing on personal perspective. You can do it regardless it being unhealthy, but it still is unhealthy.

Me playing 5 hours a day to Vanilla WoW back then unhealthy. Me spending today 100 euros per month in WoW tokens while playing 10 hours per week is unhealthy either (not doing it ofc it’s just an example).

In the end, let people play the way they want. If you don’t like whatever game because you feel it’s p2w, move on.

[KrayZ33]

I'm not playing a worse version of the game because I'm not an insecure piece of garbage worried about other players.

I was also raised correctly (I guess? Somehow this isn't common knowledge?) I don't
A) voluntarily do optional things I don't enjoy
B) while doing those completely voluntary optional things, come and cry my heart out on mmo-c

This is wow 2.0 with morons going full retard "OMFG BLIZZ MADE ME DOWNLOAD IT AND HAS A GUN TO MY HEAD TO BUY GEMS OMG HELP"

Just because you are in denial that a "better version" exist doesn't mean you aren't playing the inferior version of the game.
I have no idea why you think you were raised correctly if you can't even comprehend such a simple thing

This game is objectively worse as a F2P and that doesn't mean you should or have to spent money or that it's "worth it" to spend money.
But your experience is just worse and even you would enjoy the experience the player has with the ability to spent, whenever he wants to, more.

You can scream "But I like this game, and I don't care if someone else has more fun than me" all you want.
That's not even something I argued against, but it seems like you didn't understand that either.

[Jerot]

Indeed, it's not a slot machine. Because expressions have specific meanings! Glad we agreed

Please watch some other streamer btw. You are obviously addicted.

Yeah, a slot machine gives you the chance of winning money back. DI is a money black hole bigger than Genshin, Raid Shadow Legends, and Lost Ark combined.

Not a huge fan of Quin69, but he makes great examples of how the game punishes players just to make more money. Like how you can't out paragon grind the whales, buying gear is the only thing that matters: https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Cr...44NepcyWsSIQg8

I'm more amused at the fact he wasted over $10k and still didn't get what he wanted more than his actual content.

Only familiar with him from Path of Exile, but there I usually watch Zizaran or ZiggyD, with Mathil1 and RaizQT as my fall backs. People who don't rage for content.

[chiddie]

People typically play competitive games and sports specifically to CIRCUMVENT p2w and leave it in the hands of skill.

"But diablo isn't competitive!" Anything that has any type of stick measuring and differing outcomes based on power is competitive or will have a competitive following of some sort, even if it wasn't intended to be that in the first place (which diablo immortal absolutely is competitive in part).

Your success in a game shouldn't be tied to your income.

Also, LoL is f2p and paying customers are basically never ahead. You can unlock everything basically as soon as it's available if you're a regular player. Even then, unlocking every character in the game costs no where near as much as getting good stats in diablo.

Really, the only game genre you're talking about are mobile-based games with gacha mechanics or other artificial limitations and p2w aspects.

Never understood why instead it’s legit to tie the success on how much time you can invest into the game.

Again, having a lot of spare time is not skill related by any meaning.

[Elim Garak]

People typically play competitive games and sports specifically to CIRCUMVENT p2w and leave it in the hands of skill.

No. You've just invented that. Even in real sports there's the issue of doping. Everyone dopes. But it's who can pay the most gets a pass.
No one wants to circumvent anything - people just want to have fun. Different folks different strokes.
And if you look at so called cyber sprotsmen - you will immediately see a lot of p2w in their hardware and energy drinks product placement. Skill can only get you this far - when everyone is on the same skill level.

"But diablo isn't competitive!" Anything that has any type of stick measuring and differing outcomes based on power is competitive or will have a competitive following of some sort, even if it wasn't intended to be that in the first place (which diablo immortal absolutely is competitive in part).

Your definition of what is or isn't competitive is vague and very general. Everything is competitive. Even this forum. According to your definition. And it is. Competitive but we are not talking about THAT kind of competitions here.

Your success in a game shouldn't be tied to your income.

In what game? Is it fair to say that it's ok for there to be games in which your success IS tied to your income? Like what's wrong with that is there's a market for it? If it's not your shtick - don't play.

Also, LoL is f2p and paying customers are basically never ahead. You can unlock everything basically as soon as it's available if you're a regular player. Even then, unlocking every character in the game costs no where near as much as getting good stats in diablo.

Great, there's also Fortnite, exactly like that, also Warframe. Awesome - go play them. Why are you wasting your time trying to convince others to not play the game you don't like?

Really, the only game genre you're talking about are mobile-based games with gacha mechanics or other artificial limitations and p2w aspects.

Every game has artificial limitations. And yeas we are talking about f2p games here with gacha mechanics - because Diablo Immortals is one such game.

Afaik there are daily limits to things which you can bypass if you pay. Lost Ark have the same. You can do maybe 2-3 runs after that you gain nothing unless you pay for "tickets" that grant you rewards.
So it's sort of a paywall, but it's not stopping you from playing, but you hardly gain any progression from it.

Oh you can look at it the same way there's a daily or weekly cap on how much currency/items you can get in WoW. Clearly it's not put there for monetization because there's no monetization around that in WoW.
In free to play games - there's. The only difference.

I find the "but it's free" argument to be counterproductive for us, the consumer.

It doesn't take long to figure out that this game could be better, but isn't due to the monetization model.
It's not like any of you guys wouldn't enjoy it even more if the 5* gems would be more readily available, because it most likely (I wouldn't know, lmao, but ask those that spent 500+$ on this game, and they seem to agree) is more fun to play with those.

If you had 5* gems readily available - everyone would have them pretty fast and get bored. The game is about getting them the hard way. And if you want them the fast way - pay. Fair enough.

it's that case of "you think that you want it but you don't" that guy was spot on when he said that.

[Nymrohd]

Never understood why instead it’s legit to tie the success on how much time you can invest into the game.

Again, having a lot of spare time is not skill related by any meaning.

Never understood why success has to be tied with skill

[Kumorii]

Oh you can look at it the same way there's a daily or weekly cap on how much currency/items you can get in WoW. Clearly it's not put there for monetization because there's no monetization around that in WoW.
In free to play games - there's. The only difference.

Well, yeah... implementation matters. If WoW had ways to pay to remove the weekly / daily caps it would be a sort of paywall as well.

[s_bushido]

Not a huge fan of Quin69, but he makes great examples of how the game punishes players just to make more money. Like how you can't out paragon grind the whales, buying gear is the only thing that matters: https://www.twitch.tv/quin69/clip/Cr...44NepcyWsSIQg8

I'm more amused at the fact he wasted over $10k and still didn't get what he wanted more than his actual content.

I'm sorry, I haven't been following this at all, but if the monetization of the game is a 60+ page-worthy scandal, what does it say that people are using a guy who apparently spent $8k+ on it to back up the claims about how terrible this all is? Like...isn't he part of the problem?

[KrayZ33]

If you had 5* gems readily available - everyone would have them pretty fast and get bored. The game is about getting them the hard way. And if you want them the fast way - pay. Fair enough.

You do realize that there is some kind of middle ground, as there always is, right?
By the time you get them atm as F2P, it's far more likely... in fact, not even likely, that's just how it is.... that I get bored of the game before I get to enjoy that aspect of the game.

it's that case of "you think that you want it but you don't" that guy was spot on when he said that.

spoken like a drone. Especially since he has been proven wrong, lmao.
This has never been a case of players not wanting it, it has always been a case of Blizzard not wanting it.

[Elim Garak]

Well, yeah... implementation matters. If WoW had ways to pay to remove the weekly / daily caps it would be a sort of paywall as well.

But it's not a pay wall. It's not put there to make you pay. it's put there to pace your progress so that you won't burn out and LEAVE. It's a retention mechanic, that CAN be also monetized. Like if the player wants to burn out fast - let him at least pay before they quit.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize that there is some kind of middle ground, as there always is, right?
By the time you get them atm as F2P, it's far more likely... in fact, not even likely, that's just how it is.... that I get bored of the game before I get to enjoy that aspect of the game.

And it's a game design problem you are not qualified to even begin of solving on these forums. It's called balance. You just have your opinion on how it should be. And that's it. You just have to accept that if you get bored before getting there - it might not be the problem for the devs. That you are the acceptable loss.

[KrayZ33]

And it's a game design problem you are not qualified to even begin of solving on these forums. It's called balance. You just have your opinion on how it should be. And that's it. You just have to accept that if you get bored before getting there - it might not be the problem for the devs. That you are the acceptable loss.

Oh... so why this "you think you do, but you don't" line then?
That's a whole different mindset already.
And what did you even try to say here? Is your opinion on this any different?

[Elim Garak]

Oh... so why this "you think you do, but you don't" line then?
That's a whole different mindset already.

No. It describes perfectly how players think they are smarter than game devs. They are not in the matters of game dev. You think you know how to make the game better but it will make the game worse.

[KrayZ33]

No. It describes perfectly how players think they are smarter than game devs. They are not in the matters of game dev. You think you know how to make the game better but it will make the game worse.

Okay buddy look in the fucking mirror.
You tell me how the fuck am I supposed to know whats better and worse, yet you clearly do it yourself. What a joke. Get some arguments with you next time if you want to discuss this.

[TheRevenantHero]

I don't understand why this is 63 pages long. Why are there so many people defending the disgusting and predatory p2w practices in DI?

[Jerot]

Never understood why instead it’s legit to tie the success on how much time you can invest into the game.

Again, having a lot of spare time is not skill related by any meaning.

It's more than time, you have to be efficient, willing to learn/adapt, and have the right skills to make the most of the time you invest. 1 hour a day to a casual player is not the same as an hour of gameplay a veteran will put in.

Like anything else remotely competitive. We don't rank athletes based on how much money they put into a sport. Or artisans because they have the most expensive tools but don't know how to use them. A business paying for better reviews doesn't make it a better business.

Never understood why some think its legit to create a problem for people to sell them the solution.

I'm sorry, I haven't been following this at all, but if the monetization of the game is a 60+ page-worthy scandal, what does it say that people are using a guy who apparently spent $8k+ on it to back up the claims about how terrible this all is? Like...isn't he part of the problem?

Over 10k now.

It's partially his own fault for financially supporting it, sure. But its blizzard who created a competitive online game where you are encouraged to spend that level of money. Set the rates so you still might not get the thing you wanted. And made virtually no caps on the amount you can spend to get an advantage over other players. (While also limiting what you can do as a free player to keep up, to encourage spending)

I don't understand why this is 63 pages long. Why are there so many people defending the disgusting and predatory p2w practices in DI?

There are people who are enjoy playing the F2P parts without paying, and then there are those who are disgusted by how far they pushed monetization.

But mostly it's the handful who didn't even play the game who just wanted to argue with people.

We've heard gems like it not being pay to win at all, that there is no gambling involved, that they balanced the game so its fair between free players and paid players. That it would be a worse game if it wasn't pay to win, or if they didn't charge six figures to get endgame gear. Or even that we can't possibly know it would take that long or that much money to get gear because we haven't done it ourselves. And even if we did, it could change so it doesn't matter. Its okay because all businesses make money. Its okay because other games have done it.

It's like the mental gymnastic Olympics.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's more than time, you have to be efficient, willing to learn/adapt, and have the right skills to make the most of the time you invest. 1 hour a day to a casual player is not the same as an hour of gameplay a veteran will put in.

Like anything else remotely competitive. We don't rank athletes based on how much money they put into a sport. Or artisans because they have the most expensive tools but don't know how to use them. A business paying for better reviews doesn't make it a better business.

Never understood why some think its legit to create a problem for people to sell them the solution.


Over 10k now.

It's partially his own fault for financially supporting it, sure. But its blizzard who created a competitive online game where you are encouraged to spend that level of money. Set the rates so you still might not get the thing you wanted. And made virtually no caps on the amount you can spend to get an advantage over other players. (While also limiting what you can do as a free player to keep up, to encourage spending)



There are people who are enjoy playing the F2P parts without paying, and then there are those who are disgusted by how far they pushed monetization.

But mostly it's the handful who didn't even play the game who just wanted to argue with people.

You have absolutely no way to prove someone didn't play the game. It's also widely being spread across the internet how incredibly shitty the monetization of DI is.

[Elim Garak]

Okay buddy look in the fucking mirror.
You tell me how the fuck am I supposed to know whats better and worse, yet you clearly do it yourself. What a joke. Get some arguments with you next time if you want to discuss this.

I don't remember offering any improvements to the game. But I understand your reaction.

The problem with players is - they are myopic. Which is understandable, it's not their fault. it's normal. Like for instance you are grinding for that one last upgrade that you need. But it doesn't fucking drop. Time and again, it's just fucking doesn't drop. It irritates you. Frustrates you. You begin to think (mistakenly) it's a problem with the game. You got to forums to complain how grindy the game is.

While the game is perfectly balanced.

Doesn't compute? Right? How can the game be perfectly balanced if you didn't get the drop you want?

That's because you are one of those players who got the OTHER end of the RANDOM stick. For every one of you there's this guy who got it on the first attempt, which of course INFURIATES you even more.

But the game is perfectly balanced in that regard. For every player who jsut can't get lucky - there's 1 player who gets lucky instantly. While the VAST majority of players get their drop in 10 attempts - as intended.

Also players almost always fail to think of OTHER players. Myopic as I said.

They don't realize that the change they want, even if it makes game better for them - will make the game worse for OTHER players.

Also players tend to think that they represent the majority.

People and by extension players are that self-absorbed

[Jerot]

You have absolutely no way to prove someone didn't play the game. It's also widely being spread across the internet how incredibly shitty the monetization of DI is.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm 100% against the monetization.

I'm saying people who have freely admitted they never played the game, or that they had no intention to, are the ones defending it. They were trying to say people complaining are just anti-blizzard crybabies because they could choose not to pay for it or play. I updated my previous post with a couple of real nuggets from them.