Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[MoanaLisa]

The problem seems like there isn't much of a game once you reach that point. You can't even pay to win because there is nothing to win. You have your checklist of things to do each day, 5 of this, 2 of that. But you cannot actually grind anything to become more powerful. You are at the mercy of timers and payment windows the entire time. Hidden caps, as in loot just stops dropping with no explanation as for why.

What's wrong with arguing there should be things people can do if they want to spend that much time on the game? Or that limitations should be clearly marked, so people aren't expected to keep track of every activity they do to play efficiently.

Even the pro-P2W crowd seems to agree the monetization is lazy, there is no bridge from minnows to dolphins to whales. It's all in on the gems from the beginning and its ridiculous how much it costs for what you get in return. Like the laughable "800% value" package you can't buy anything with. Straight to needing thousands to upgrade gear. The same limits and hidden caps that stop a F2P from competing with them, block them from enjoying the power they paid for.

Even if you don't care about it being predatory, it's not setup in a way that efficiently converts f2p players. Conveniences they want to pay for aren't sold, and things like limited temporary storage space and access to the market remotely aren't valuable to them. They want to buy EVEN MORE space, have remote access to salvage, deckard, the blacksmith. Stuff anti-P2W players wouldn't care about and would make the game more money.

If the game falls off for anyone who wants to put time or money into it, how long is it really going to last?

These are arguments IN FAVOR OF THE GAME. Not trying to say you shouldn't enjoy the game because of these reasons. But its a large part of why a lot of players and Diablo content creators have been pretty negative on monetization of the game despite liking the game itself. Why is it so wrong to ask them to rethink this model? For everyone's benefit. Right now its like they have the worst part of blizzards F2P compromises mixed with the worst of NetEases P2W systems.

That’s a good post. I also noticed that there were few gradations from cheap to expensive That is a real problem. The best MTX mobile games will start you off at $.49 or $.99 and give you a dozen or so different escalations in price all the way to the top end not to mention a ton of “useful right now” things for cheap. I also totally agree that the wrong stuff is in the store. That is on Blizzard US since they made several posts about how they were trying to get the MTX right. Blizzard always considered itself an elite game maker so could charge more but I believe those days are long over. Since the failure of Titan Blizzard has not been the same company in any way like they were before if you think about the last few years.

Looking forward, I imagine they will make adjustments sooner rather than later. They can run daily and weekly or weekend sales like nearly everyone else does. They can expand the store with more stuff at more price points and they can limit their store exposure to a splash screen at the start and an icon in the corner of the interface. They can also release new zones and the like along with pay-for classes and skins. They’re not dumb and they will eventually figure it out only because there are so many other revenue models they can borrow from. After all, that’s what they do.

That won’t convince anyone that thinks the game should either be 100% free or $39.99. The latter will never work for mobile and the former won’t make them any money.

[RobertoCarlos]

That’s a good post. I also noticed that there were few gradations from cheap to expensive That is a real problem. The best MTX mobile games will start you off at $.49 or $.99 and give you a dozen or so different escalations in price all the way to the top end not to mention a ton of “useful right now” things for cheap. I also totally agree that the wrong stuff is in the store. That is on Blizzard US since they made several posts about how they were trying to get the MTX right. Blizzard always considered itself an elite game maker so could charge more but I believe those days are long over. Since the failure of Titan Blizzard has not been the same company in any way like they were before if you think about the last few years.

Looking forward, I imagine they will make adjustments sooner rather than later. They can run daily and weekly or weekend sales like nearly everyone else does. They can expand the store with more stuff at more price points and they can limit their store exposure to a splash screen at the start and an icon in the corner of the interface. They can also release new zones and the like along with pay-for classes and skins. They’re not dumb and they will eventually figure it out only because there are so many other revenue models they can borrow from. After all, that’s what they do.

That won’t convince anyone that thinks the game should either be free or $39.99. The latter will never work for mobile and the former won’t make them any money.

Hard to consider yourself an elite game maker when you are not even making the game.

[Talon8669]

One of the things I found quite funny when trying it was when I cleared a dungeon for the first time my REWARD is a discount bundle in the shop. My reward for clearing a dungeon is the opportunity to spend money. Oh but at a discount, ya know cus they want you to be used to spending money early. Even if it's just a little. Get that taste.

From what I briefly saw of the game and the videos I have seen of others playing Blizzard has doubled down on every predatory, disgusting behaviour that P2W games have. The mental tricks of luring people in with rewards, dailies, small free tastes of what it'd be play to spend money, cheap 1-time only bundles to get you into spending just a little to get the ball rolling, every penny spent is some form of gambling mechanic to get those gambling addicts hooked etc. etc... Every mechanic in the game, every prompt, every action is designed with trying to get the player to spend money ahead of anything else.

Diablo Immortal is everything bad about current-gen games, games whos mechanics are more focused on mental warefare with the player to make as much money as possible and it saddens me than the company and game at the forefront of all these disgusting behavours is both the company and game series that I once loved.

I understand companies exist to make money, but that doesn't excuse disgusting behaviour and these predatory mechanics are exactly that. I just want game companies to be about making good games again. People should spend money on your game because your game is good and they want to support it, not because they was coaxed into spending it.

What I love is when they announced this at Blizzcon and said what don't you guys have phones. People were pissed off for (2) reasons, (1) they want the game on PC which it can be played on but they wanted a PC only game really and not something made mobile and then optimized to be played on PC. The second thing they were pissed about was the potential for the cash grab. And look what we ended up with, a game that asks what $100k to $110K to have BIS gems. And we'll see if that is forever or just that "season". I don't play mobile games but this is disgusting and honestly Blizzard at this point is trash imo. They might be able to do something still with the next wow expansion but I think they are done. They certainly aren't like 90's game developer we all fell in love with.

[thilicen]

If you had 5* gems readily available - everyone would have them pretty fast and get bored. The game is about getting them the hard way. And if you want them the fast way - pay. Fair enough.

I'm sorry, if someone can spend around 10000 dollars without getting a single 5 star gem, what in the holy fuck is the "hard way"?

- - - Updated - - -

What I love is when they announced this at Blizzcon and said what don't you guys have phones. People were pissed off for (2) reasons, (1) they want the game on PC which it can be played on but they wanted a PC only game really and not something made mobile and then optimized to be played on PC. The second thing they were pissed about was the potential for the cash grab. And look what we ended up with, a game that asks what $100k to $110K to have BIS gems. And we'll see if that is forever or just that "season". I don't play mobile games but this is disgusting and honestly Blizzard at this point is trash imo. They might be able to do something still with the next wow expansion but I think they are done. They certainly aren't like 90's game developer we all fell in love with.

That Blizzard died when Activision came into play. This is just the grave being dug even deeper.

[Cyi]

That’s a good post. I also noticed that there were few gradations from cheap to expensive That is a real problem. The best MTX mobile games will start you off at $.49 or $.99 and give you a dozen or so different escalations in price all the way to the top end not to mention a ton of “useful right now” things for cheap. I also totally agree that the wrong stuff is in the store. That is on Blizzard US since they made several posts about how they were trying to get the MTX right. Blizzard always considered itself an elite game maker so could charge more but I believe those days are long over. Since the failure of Titan Blizzard has not been the same company in any way like they were before if you think about the last few years.

Looking forward, I imagine they will make adjustments sooner rather than later. They can run daily and weekly or weekend sales like nearly everyone else does. They can expand the store with more stuff at more price points and they can limit their store exposure to a splash screen at the start and an icon in the corner of the interface. They can also release new zones and the like along with pay-for classes and skins. They’re not dumb and they will eventually figure it out only because there are so many other revenue models they can borrow from. After all, that’s what they do.

That won’t convince anyone that thinks the game should either be 100% free or $39.99. The latter will never work for mobile and the former won’t make them any money.

Serious question coming from a point of ignorance. Why wouldn’t a $39.99 price for a mobile game work? I feel like there are lots of games that are pay once. Again serious question. Thanks.

[MrFawlty]

Should check out Grim Dawn, Diablo 3 (At least fun until you get to end-game aka paragon grinding simulator) or even Torchlight 2 then. Actual good ARPG's.

Two of those games dont have Blizzard logos so he wont touch them.

[thilicen]

Serious question coming from a point of ignorance. Why wouldn’t a $39.99 price for a mobile game work? I feel like there are lots of games that are pay once. Again serious question. Thanks.

It would, it just won't bring in whale money. You see, selling a game at a premium will earn you a lot of money, but ActiBlizz wants all of the money. Literally all of it. EA is shrinking to the size of a pissant in the horizon compared to these assholes.

[Jerot]

I'm sorry, if someone can spend around 10000 dollars without getting a single 5 star gem, what in the holy fuck is the "hard way"?

Roll the dice, log in every day and you get 1 legendary crest a week plus one more from hilts a month, 5 rolls a month. 4.5% to hit ?/5 and 1% of those will be 5/5.

Just play the game every day for 37 years straight and don't roll less than average.
(Don't expect a genuine answer from them)

[uuuhname]

But they are allowed to buy Pokemon card packs, blind bags, etc that all exhibit gambling and things to milk money. Stop trying to prop up your argument by talking about children when even countries that ban loot boxes don't actually stop those ethical or moral quandaries towards children. Those countries don't stop games from doing those things when no money is involved. So they are perfectly fine with the kids being hooked on the concepts.

your comparison to trading card games cards is bad, sorry.

for starters there is a mountain of difference between making the conscious choice of going to a card shop, picking out a couple packs, spending a whopping $15 on cards. is in no way the same as this button that continues to pop up on your screen telling you to push it and when you do it charges your card for $75. and going back to the cards you realize there is an actual market for trading cards, right? I hope you understand that trading cards, unlike video game assists have actual tangible real world value attached to them. so at the very least you can get your money back and then some if your lucky. as opposed to a lottery where you throw money into it and nothing comes out, because its stuck in a video game..

Also the legal age to drink alcohol varies around the world. The age of majority also varies around the world. It also ignores that video games are not just for kids. So you really are moving the goal posts to entirely different arguments that don't exist the way you think they do.

are you fucking serious? I've been using these same examples for pages and pages now.

[thilicen]

Roll the dice, log in every day and you get 1 legendary crest a week plus one more from hilts a month, 5 rolls a month. 4.5% to hit ?/5 and 1% of those will be 5/5.

Just play the game every day for 37 years straight and don't roll less than average.
(Don't expect a genuine answer from them)

I mean, even russian roulette gives you a whooping 86% chance to live on the first shot, at worst you're looking at 50/50..

[uuuhname]

No, kids should not be allowed to gamble. Blizzard, as we have been reminded fucking numerous times over the last dozen plus years, is not our parents, nor theirs. It's up to the parents in the home to have some say and control over what their kids do. Frankly, if some 10-year-old has access to his parent's credit card how they resolve that is up to them. It's not Blizzard's concern. Again, Blizzard is not the fucking parent here.

I really feel like a fool not seeing this sentiment coming from someone who could barely bring themselves to criticize Activision Blizzard at all with that meager little "I'm not saying Blizzard is your friend" comment.

cool, you win Mona. you've beaten me and every possible example I could bring up of shitty, predatory business practices being shitty and predatory, all that those examples and instances can be SWEPT away with simple, mighty:
"well actually, it's the parents fault"
"well actually, it's the consumers fault"
"well actually, it's your fault"

congrats. add it to the score board.

we can't hold corporations to account because the blame can always be shifted elsewhere.

[Jerot]

we can't hold corporations to account because the blame can always be shifted elsewhere.

That has been the running theme in this thread.

Few people dispute how ridiculous it is to charge so much money for something so trivial. They rather hand wave it away and make it about how you are the one with the problem. Because they don't really care, so why does it matter?

[MoanaLisa]

Serious question coming from a point of ignorance. Why wouldn’t a $39.99 price for a mobile game work? I feel like there are lots of games that are pay once. Again serious question. Thanks.

Because so much of the mobile market is either F2P or the B2P games are very inexpensive. I payed $9.99 for the iOS version of Civilization VI and that included the expansions. Yeah, that's in internet years an older game but there are tons of games that run around $15 dollars. Blizzard might have made it work at that price point but I think they are looking for something that will generate revenue for many months or possibly years. You don't get that on mobile very often with a buy up front. Cash and dash. It's just a very different market to me. Those games are out there though. They typically aren't big money winners.

As well, it's been pretty much proven by now that F2P with a store is the winner in generating revenue in this market (and increasingly in PC games). That's sad to me. I'm not outraged about it because my little piece of outrage would be like trying to hold back an ocean tide but I think it's generally a change for the worse.

[Ghost of Cow]

That has been the running theme in this thread.

Few people dispute how ridiculous it is to charge so much money for something so trivial. They rather hand wave it away and make it about how you are the one with the problem. Because they don't really care, so why does it matter?

If you spend too much money on a video game, you ARE the problem.

You guys keep acting like you're baffled that people won't blame a company for selling a product while you absolve people of all responsibility for buying too much of it.

[Popastique]

No I'm pretty sure there are a few people who are mad because the MTX is just so extensive compared to other IPs of Blizzard. And there are other "lack of refinements" that seem to put this game away from the original core values of Blizzard (i.e. Gameplay First, Commit to Quality, etc etc).

There are some decisions that I just don't quite understand... like take the Battle Pass daily rewards... so you've purchased the Battle Pass, you should get everything in the BP yet the daily rewards of the BP are only given to you if you daily log in. Miss a day and you've lost out on something you've already paid for. Why not just allow the accrual of the daily rewards if you somehow miss a day or two?

Or how about the streamer that spent nearly $4k and still didn't get a legendary 5 star gem? That seems incredibly egregious of a system.


Now I get that some folks will say, look it's a "free" mobile game so there's bound to be some kind of hook to get "whales" to pay for it. But from what I'm seeing is that not even the "whales" want to touch end-game of DI with a 10 ft pole. So then what becomes of the legacy of DI? How does it's failures/successes translate over to future Blizzard projects including D4?

We will see what becomes of it after 3-4 months, it is pretty much useless to speculate right now. All depends on available content and amount of support it will receive ( events, seasons, etc . ). Can't say anything about D4, but those are different beasts - f2p mobile game and full-priced PC game. They can't be compared ( at least for now )
BTW amount of positive stuff from people over at AppStore and Google Play shows that people are ok with it, but again - it will take a few months to see the detailed picture.

Must agree on BP though, missing rewards you paid for is pretty stupid

[Ghost of Cow]

Serious question coming from a point of ignorance. Why wouldn’t a $39.99 price for a mobile game work? I feel like there are lots of games that are pay once. Again serious question. Thanks.

The mobile market is largely built on smaller/simpler games designed for people to play in short periods of time. People in that market aren't looking to shell out $40 up front for a game they're playing for 10 minutes on a bus or something.

The issue with D:I isn't that it's mobile, or that it has MTX. The issue is that you have people wanting to treat a mobile game as a full-time game. So they're going into it with these weird ideas about playing for long periods, min/maxing all the best stuff early on, and so on. Why they can't just play D3 or PoE or wait for D4 is beyond me. People just want to be angry.

[MoanaLisa]

I really feel like a fool not seeing this sentiment coming from someone who could barely bring themselves to criticize Activision Blizzard at all with that meager little "I'm not saying Blizzard is your friend" comment.

cool, you win Mona. you've beaten me and every possible example I could bring up of shitty, predatory business practices being shitty and predatory, all that those examples and instances can be SWEPT away with simple, mighty:
"well actually, it's the parents fault"
"well actually, it's the consumers fault"
"well actually, it's your fault"

congrats. add it to the score board.

we can't hold corporations to account because the blame can always be shifted elsewhere.

Outrage noted for all the actual good it will do or change it will cause. In fact large corporations in capitalist economies are very difficult to hold to account for just selling things. Sorry if the real world is not to your liking. The best advice I can offer about Blizzard or any company like this is to have some personal responsibility. Understand what they are—as many clearly do—and don't allow them to control you.

If you spend too much money on a video game, you ARE the problem.

You guys keep acting like you're baffled that people won't blame a company for selling a product while you absolve people of all responsibility for buying too much of it.

Quite right. That idiot on Twitch who spent ten grand to not get that legendary thing said he was trying to prove a point. No, he was just doing a stunt fuck to get views and spend other people's donations. Talk of twitch today though so perhaps it worked.

[Biomega]

If you spend too much money on a video game, you ARE the problem.

I mean, yes and no.

100% agreed that people should be more responsible as consumers, and stop rewarding corporations for bad products by continuing to purchase them. Money is the language they speak, so talk to them with your wallet. Screaming bloody murder and then swiping your credit card anyway is some serious cognitive dissonance.

BUUUUUT

There's also more complicated things at work. These kinds of marketing/business models are controversial for a reason. Most nations heavily regulated gambling industries, too - clearly "if you spend too much money in a casino, you ARE the problem" doesn't exactly serve as the most productive remedy to gambling problems. Now, whether or not Diablo Immoral and games like it actually cross the line into what should be regulated as gambling or gambling-adjacent, that's up for debate. Some countries say yes; the Netherlands and Belgium have banned the game. Others say no, it's not the same thing. But even if it's not gambling, maybe it's still something that could do with some more intervention than just "lol just don't do it".

Consumers deserve and need protection. That's pretty much agreed on by most people. How far it goes, therein lies the rub. This is still a relatively new industry and there's much to figure out both ethically/morally and legally. Just saying "stop doing it", while well-intentioned and technically correct, is probably just not going to be enough.

[pinkz]

streamers and influencers are doing well with diablo immortal. ATVI is laughing to the bank.

ones that say i'm doing this so you don't and i'm doing this to show you how P2W it is like asmondgold who even admitted it has been his best content in a long time, Quinn popping $5000 on one day, Shroud talking possibly popping $100K because he has it. these generate a ton of views, asmongold who once worked for the IRS, has mentioned before that all this can be wrote off as a business expense, has said it playing LA and again on DI. not sure how taxes work for those in other countries, where they consider doing such actions as criminal to create tax right offs.

the big LOL, seeing a youtube video titled Diablo Immortal - How to win as a F2P player he tells you how to crush the game playing free, then explains he spent money by accident, then why he had too

alot justify spending based on taking into consideration what you pay for a box game, monthly sub, etc. and spending that in DI. this same tactic is pushed in hero wars, lost ark, genshin impact etc monetized games. many players spend that full amount right away, and are hooked into spending. they do not hold themselves to $15 a month.
DEVs and psych's that create these games know it.

when ATVI sees the full results of the cash brought in by their 4 mobile games, vs all the effort. employees for full PC games. WOW could be going into maint mode, but it's P2W too, the true $$$ RMT amounts spent by some are mostly disguised and hidden

[|Dexter|]

While I know that this is about Diablo, it makes me fear what the future for WoW looks like... the new XP seems to be the bare minion again. For the past 2 years we got one mayor patch and store mounts and it look like this year it will be the same story... with zero communication about the release window for the new Xpack! it seems this company stop caring about creating games and is more about milking as much money from their games with as little work as possible!