Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[NineSpine]

So how do you know that Blizzard changed goals between the past and now?

Do you really need me to explain how the company whose mantra was "It will be released when its done" and put an insanely high focus on quality is different from the company that announced WC3 Reforged with a release date before they even put a team together, and then released it missing half the promised features, in a totally buggy and fucked up state?

[Elim Garak]

That's not lying. They guarantee that IF you are able to get X number of people in, you'll make money. That's true, and that's how the people near the top make money.

What are you smoking? You are not guaranteed to make money! because your money only comes from the money the people you bring in earn! And the more your X the greater THEIR X, and the greater the X the harder.

The only people who actually WILL make money is top tier. VIP. Who take their cut from your X and their X, etc

People near the top are PART of the scheme. Lol.

[NineSpine]

From whose point of view? Clearly not Blizzards. But you once again going rogue. You are speaking about a bussiness model not a loot box. it can as well be a guaranteed BiS set for $2. Would it be bad? Nope - well not for players.

So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?

Loot boxes are a business model. That loot box would be terrible for the vast majority of players.

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What are you smoking? You are not guaranteed to make money! because your money only comes from the money the people you bring in earn! And the more your X the greater THEIR X, and the greater the X the harder.

The only people who actually WILL make money is top tier. VIP.

People near the top are PART of the scheme. Lol.

It's not a lie to say "If you bring in X people you will make money".

[rhorle]

You can't just go into the shop and buy 50 crests to get the thing you want. You have to buy another thing alongside it and then there are these nice "discounts" which you certainly don't want to miss out on...

And? I never doubted it exists that way so I'm not sure what you are even arguing against. It isn't a problem though because it is just simple basic marketing that is used everywhere in daily life. I'm sure it is even used in your unnamed country with the consumer protection laws you bragged about. Also your list of "how it looks in my store" isn't packages that are half-empty if they are sold to be that way. They are simply packages that have extra space. In regards to chips and other similar products that air has an actual purpose as an protection for the product. The gas is used as a cushion.

The examples with a date comparison is showing results of inflation and other material increases then it is "half-full" products. You keep moving the goal posts further away from the original comments and context.

[Elim Garak]

Loot boxes are a business model. That loot box would be terrible for the vast majority of players.

No, lootbox is a mechanic of looting system. in-game shop that sells lootboxes - is a business model.

It's not a lie to say "If you bring in X people you will make money".

That's not what they say. They promise riches. No one wants to just make some money. So that line of yours will not work to bring their X people in.

[KrayZ33]

And? I never doubted it exists that way so I'm not sure what you are even arguing against. It isn't a problem though because it is just simple basic marketing that is used everywhere in daily life. I'm sure it is even used in your unnamed country with the consumer protection laws you bragged about. Also your list of "how it looks in my store" isn't packages that are half-empty if they are sold to be that way. They are simply packages that have extra space. In regards to chips and other similar products that air has an actual purpose as an protection for the product. The gas is used as a cushion.

The examples with a date comparison is showing results of inflation and other material increases then it is "half-full" products. You keep moving the goal posts further away from the original comments and context.

Oh god, you can't make this shit up.
You are a waste of time and effort. Do your thing, whatever. Enjoy that big fat dick in your ass.

[rhorle]

Do you really need me to explain how the company whose mantra was "It will be released when its done" and put an insanely high focus on quality is different from the company that announced WC3 Reforged with a release date before they even put a team together, and then released it missing half the promised features, in a totally buggy and fucked up state?

Is that evidence of a shift in what they care about or just evidence that they made mistakes? It will be released when its done has always been a marketing thing and not an actual rule. Blizzard hasn't delayed things indefinitely until it is perfect but just until it was good enough for them.

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Oh god, you can't make this shit up.

It is true though. A picture of chocolate figures with different sizes for the same price between years isn't evidence of a package being sold half-empty. It is evidence of a product change which could be for any number of reasons. The package in both cases are full packages. Just like the x-ray of a package with an air cushion is not being sold half-full. It is your ignorance of the reason why there is an air cushion that leads you to that false belief.

The problem is you are blinded by the need to hate on Blizzard or these things for any reason that you can't see the actual flaws in the argument you are making.

[KrayZ33]

Is that evidence of a shift in what they care about or just evidence that they made mistakes? It will be released when its done has always been a marketing thing and not an actual rule. Blizzard hasn't delayed things indefinitely until it is perfect but just until it was good enough for them.

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It is true though. A picture of chocolate figures with different sizes for the same price between years isn't evidence of a package being sold half-empty. It is evidence of a product change which could be for any number of reasons. The package in both cases are full packages. Just like the x-ray of a package with an air cushion is not being sold half-full. It is your ignorance of the reason why there is an air cushion that leads you to that false belief.

The problem is you are blinded by the need to hate on Blizzard or these things for any reason that you can't see the actual flaws in the argument you are making.

The problem is the dick is so deep in your ass that you have trouble thinking, you are actually enjoying it.
There are no "flaws" with these arguments. I even posted the video where it is all explained by someone *doing* it and pitching it to other companies... and you still think it's done for the consumer.

Here, once again so you can actually see it because you are obviously a bit blind, your precious chips that need cushion.


200g -> 170g same packaging
170g -> 195g (still less) SUPER +25g for free PARTY EDITION (price increase btw) - bigger box.
195g -> 180g "now with more inside" (after the special ended - still less than the initial 200g) small box again
180g -> 165g same box
165g -> 190g
190g -> 200g "NOW 200g super EXTRA DELUXE" (big package again) See how it's the same as in the beginning, just way more pricey and a larger box of course, even though we know the normal box is enough as this has been sold that way for decades.

almost 100% price increase during that time, when the price for potatoes and production cost was no were even close to that.
Surely you will now point out missing factors such as wage and all that jazz and simply ignore the fact that none of the box *size* changes were necessary and only done to confuse the consumer.


Infracted.

[Alroxas]

What region are you playing in? In the UK store they're bought singularly or in packs of 10.

Let me rephrase... The maximum amount of Crests you can buy using a straight conversion of RMT to Orbs to Crests is 45

Here's the math (for those following along):

$99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

In order to get 5 more, you need to spend just a bit more and because there isn't a 800 orb pack (the amount needed for 5 crests), you have to over buy the amount of orbs.

But wait can't you just buy the smaller increment of orbs (60 orbs for $0.99)? Well again, you still have orbs left over... 50 crests = 8000 orbs which does not divide evenly with 60. (Actual math works out to be $133 and 1/3).

It's these kinds of systems that I really dislike (and others too)... Why not just come out and have a $100 pack that gives you exactly 8k orbs you would need to buy 50 crests? (or just skip the whole orb conversion).

A lot of games (including better ones like PoE) have this obfuscation going on with an intermediary currency to actually use their store.

[rhorle]

There are no "flaws" with these arguments.

So if a package has an air cushion to protect its contents it is still being sold half-full? It is better to not have that air cushion and let the contents get crushed in transit? Chocolate changing size are full packages and more a result of inflation/costs then consumer deception. Again your argument has flaws and there is little reason for you to keep denying it.

[Jerot]

Watched a dude who spent 4k getting a 5-star gem freak out after it got auto-eaten when ranking up another gem, despite him taking the time to make sure it was setup not to.

Also read about someone upset that they paid to create a clan before joining shadows, and then joining shadows causes the clan to be deleted and the money lost. Blizzard responded saying they have no access in-game to give a refund.

Amazing game. 10/10

$99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

The pity system isn't very good either, it's just another ?/5 gem, meaning you would have to trigger it 100 times on average to get an actual 5-star gem from it. Such value, especially if you plan on buying 5,000 crests.

[KrayZ33]

So if a package has an air cushion to protect its contents it is still being sold half-full? It is better to not have that air cushion and let the contents get crushed in transit? Chocolate changing size are full packages and more a result of inflation/costs then consumer deception. Again your argument has flaws and there is little reason for you to keep denying it.

See the post I just edited.
You are only focusing on "what ifs" and imaginary problems that don't exist, not on the actual facts and why the companies do it.

Explain to me why the size changed, and only when it's in favor to their new deal and never when it's to their disadvantage. Go on. I'll wait.

[Alroxas]

So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?

The bad part is the amount the lootbox costs. Replace $2 with a higher price tag, say $10,000 - is that a good loot box then? Sure for players who can afford it, but for the rest of the player base it's bad in that unless you're already rich, you might as well be a "lesser" citizen in this virtual world.

And we kind of already see this in WoW... How much did Limit spend in their pursuit of R2WF? While it's not a Blizzard sanctioned event, the availability of player power through gold purchases (indirectly supported by wow token as a conversion to RMT) means that it's next to impossible for other groups to even stand a chance against the titans (i.e. Limit, Echo, etc) unless they have serious money backing them.


Don't get me wrong, sure DI might be good for the casuals who want to infrequently dip in, it's probably fine but for more dedicated players, the MTX of DI are a hard wall to cross over and it's devalues DI (along with the Diablo franchise) for the rest of the player base.

Sure some claim that it's a free mobile game so it's going to have these MTX systems in it but what if that carries forward to D4? Where if you wanted to run more than 1 greater rift a day you need to pony up some cash? Or if you want a "juicy" greater rift that offers more rewards, you need to apply a "legendary crest"-like item to your run (which are limited in supply unless you want to pay up)?

Back in 2006 there was a large outcry when Horse Armor was sold for $2.50 for TESIV, how much are players willing to pay now in 2022/2023?

[Elim Garak]

Let me rephrase... The maximum amount of Crests you can buy using a straight conversion of RMT to Orbs to Crests is 45

Here's the math (for those following along):

$99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

In order to get 5 more, you need to spend just a bit more and because there isn't a 800 orb pack (the amount needed for 5 crests), you have to over buy the amount of orbs.

But wait can't you just buy the smaller increment of orbs (60 orbs for $0.99)? Well again, you still have orbs left over... 50 crests = 8000 orbs which does not divide evenly with 60. (Actual math works out to be $133 and 1/3).

It's these kinds of systems that I really dislike (and others too)... Why not just come out and have a $100 pack that gives you exactly 8k orbs you would need to buy 50 crests? (or just skip the whole orb conversion).

A lot of games (including better ones like PoE) have this obfuscation going on with an intermediary currency to actually use their store.

There's a very simple explanation: overthinking with maths.

Orbs are not used just for crests. You are so focused on Legendary Gems that you constructed this false narrative that Orb packs are designed around crests and thus must give exactly the amount of orbs to buy 50 because of a bad luck protection that kicks in.

Orbs are your usual Hard Currency that you buy with real money to buy in-game stuff. And it is always priced against a Real Currency.
For instance in US store it's 1$ per 60, or one orb per ~15 cents. All other packs are scaled up at that rate. Plus a value added in 5% increments - up to 20%.

For example for the top pack to give you 8000 orbs the added value percent will have to be 30% which is not inline with the current system, but those % can be easily changed in the future (if need be - say packs don't sell well), and there's also gonna be sales with discounts.

So a player buying two packs and having extra Orbs - is not losing anything. He has his 50+ packs for bad luck protection and orbs to buy other IMPORTANT stuff.

[Dhrizzle]

It is a FACT that DI has loot boxes which you can spend $10,000+ on without getting the item you need.

I'm sorry that this FACT is inconvenient for your argument, but FACTS don't magically transform into opinions and logical fallacies and loaded whatever just because they are inconvenient for your horseshit sophistry.

Diablo: Immortal doesn't have lootboxes. It has Rift things and items you can purchase that give extra loot from those Rift things but that's not the same concept. Unless you're doing that thing where you care more about how you feel about a word rather than what it means, in which case I can be arsed arguing about that crap any more.

[Jerot]

See the post I just edited.
You are only focusing on "what ifs" and imaginary problems that don't exist, not on the actual facts and why the companies do it.

Explain to me why the size changed, and only when it's in favor to their new deal and never when it's to their disadvantage. Go on. I'll wait.

Even the pringles mascot has become a soulless puppet, driven only by greed. Stare deep into his cold dead eyes and witness the horror of powdered potatoes, vegetable oil, and unbridled capitalism.

For real though, the person you're replying to seems to love talking about anything other than the game itself, because they can't actually defend it. A lot of people here just don't care, the rather use it as an excuse to troll people who do. That or feel offended that someone doesn't share their opinion of the game and takes any criticism of it as a personal attack.

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Diablo: Immortal doesn't have lootboxes. It has Rift things and items you can purchase that give extra loot from those Rift things but that's not the same concept. Unless you're doing that thing where you care more about how you feel about a word rather than what it means, in which case I can be arsed arguing about that crap any more.

Rift things eh.

You mean elder rifts and crests? And the gems you can only get from crests? Or craft with materials you get from crests? You can also get the materials with fading embers I suppose... that you only get by running crests.

CSGO doesn't have loot boxes either, you pay to watch the parade of guns scrolling by with fancy animations and sounds, and you get a free gun at the end! It's not even called a "box" and the game doesn't have "loot".

[KrayZ33]

Even the pringles mascot has become a soulless puppet, driven only by greed. Stare deep into his cold dead eyes and witness the horror of powdered potatoes, vegetable oil, and unbridled capitalism.

For real though, the person you're replying to seems to love talking about anything other than the game itself, because they can't actually defend it. A lot of people here just don't care, the rather use it as an excuse to troll people who do.

The annoying thing is that they look at every piece of shit this game does "as a single offender" play it down (while also saying it's not good practice) and say it's not as bad, not realizing that it all plays together to a massive pile of dung stacked so high that there is at hardly enough room to actually believe anything in this game was done in good faith or for the sake of creating a good game.

It's a confusing price model, made with obstacles and barriers and extra step, it lures you in with "super value"-offers that aren't "actual" offers considering the price of the "standard" product is basically usury.
The game mechanics as well are designed *around* the shop, literally making the game worse to play no matter HOW you look at it.
The game *is* worse than how it could be.
And Blizzard isn't doing a sharp calculation here always on the edge of going bankrupt. They have absolutely *0* interest in giving the player a good experience with their monetization. And that is despicable and bad practice and consumer unfriendly. Using tricks alongside all that is what makes it even worse. Borderline, but not actually, illegal even.

Deceptive pricing (bait and switch) and other unfair trade practices come to mind for example.
(edit: just to clarify, they don't actually do a bait and switch)

[Elim Garak]

The bad part is the amount the lootbox costs. Replace $2 with a higher price tag, say $10,000 - is that a good loot box then? Sure for players who can afford it, but for the rest of the player base it's bad in that unless you're already rich, you might as well be a "lesser" citizen in this virtual world.

That's some subjective stuff. I don't consider some players who cannot afford a 10k lootbox as an indicator that it's bad. it's only bad if not enough people buy it. Then the price will be lowered. Until it reaches the optimal value for the market. It's economics 101.

It's like shitting on a red ferarri because you cannot afford it.

[rhorle]

You are only focusing on "what ifs" and imaginary problems that don't exist, not on the actual facts and why the companies do it.

How is it a what if when you brought it up as an example to support your argument? That means you are the one focusing on a what if of packages being sold half-full and not me. It is your argument lmao. Amazing how you dismiss your incorrect examples as me focusing on the wrong thing and not you ignoring actual facts. In most cases a company will change a product to favor themselves. I'm not sure why I need to explain that to you.

[Ghost of Cow]

The annoying thing is that they look at every piece of shit this game does "as a single offender"

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your point here, but everyone has said that this ISN'T a new thing, or a "single offender". That this is the mobile market in a nutshell.