1. #1641
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Are pyramid schemes not predatory because people choose to buy in? Of course they are predatory, because the fact that people make choices doesn't change whether something is predatory.
    They are predatory because people are LIED to.
    I don't remember seeing anywhere on any loot box saying "buy this lootbox and get this item" unless it literally gave you that item.

    But you are reaching instead of admitting even a iota of possibility of being in the wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Your definition of "predatory" is meaningless because it would mean something as reprehensible as bumfights is not predatory because the targets "chose" to be involved.
    I gave no definition

    But your definition makes employees who ask for a promotion predatory towards an employer who cannot let them go.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Spectrums, you mean like how implementations of lootboxes exist on a spectrum from good to bad? You also specifically said "the good ones" which necessarily means there are one that are NOT GOOD, also known as BAD.
    Lootboxes don't exist on a spectrum (MMOs do). They are a singular mechanic. Which is essential for lootbased games.
    Your beef is clearly with the business models. But until you agree that lootboxes are essential and awesome we cannot get to the meat of your problem
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  2. #1642
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    They are predatory because people are LIED to.
    I don't remember seeing any there on any loot box saying "buy this lootbox and get this item" unless it literally gave you that item.

    But you are reaching instead of admitting even a iota of possibility of being in the wrong.
    Pyramid schemes do not always lie. They often just tell you that if you do X you will make money. What they leave out is that X is not feasible by a certain point in the scheme. There is absolutely no requirement of lying.

    I gave no definition

    But your definition makes employees who ask for a promotion are predatory towards an employer who cannot let them go.

    Lootboxes don't exist on a spectrum (MMOs do). They are a singular mechanic. Which is essential for lootbased games.
    Your beef is clearly with the business models. But until you agree that lootboxes are essential and awesome we cannot get to the meat of your problem
    Lootboxes are objectively speaking not a singular mechanic. They can be implemented in innumerable different ways. Let me know when you grow up enough to talk about that.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  3. #1643
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Can you cite these studies?
    sure: https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=study...m+of+lootboxes
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  4. #1644
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Pyramid schemes do not always lie. They often just tell you that if you do X you will make money. What they leave out is that X is not feasible by a certain point in the scheme. There is absolutely no requirement of lying.
    That's literally lying. "Will" != "may or may not". Also lying by omission.
    All scams lie. Why are you defending pyramid schemes all of a sudden?

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Lootboxes are objectively speaking not a singular mechanic. They can be implemented in innumerable different ways. Let me know when you grow up enough to talk about that.
    Lootboxes objectively speaking are a singular mechanic.

    Sure one game can be coded in C++ - another game may be C#, and the third game will use RenPy. Different implementations but the mechanic will be the same. There are also different ways of picking a random item - but that's mostly for optimization reasons.

    There might be additional mechanics added on top, after the lootbox is opened, but those are separate mechanics.
    And we cannot talk about them until lootboxes are awesome.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    That's literally lying. "Will" != "may or may not". Also lying by omission.
    All scams lie. Why are you defending pyramid schemes all of a sudden?

    Lootboxes objectively speaking are a singular mechanic.

    Sure one game can be coded in C++ - another game may be C#, and the third game will use RenPy. Different implementations but the mechanic will be the same. There are also different ways of picking a random item - but that's mostly for optimization reasons.

    There might be additional mechanics added on top, after the lootbox is opened, but those are separate mechanics.
    And we cannot talk about them until lootboxes are awesome.
    Let's say WoW got a lootbox that had a 99% chance to give you a full set of BiS gear, and it cost $1. Would that be a good loot box?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  6. #1646
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Just because you have a parent company doesn't mean anything. I've worked placed with parent companies that didn't give a fuck as long as a profit was generated and never got involved in any decision making.
    Doesn't that just prove the point? As long as profit is being generated they don't care how the company goes about it but it was always a focus.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1647
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    That's literally lying. "Will" != "may or may not". Also lying by omission.
    All scams lie. Why are you defending pyramid schemes all of a sudden?
    That's not lying. They guarantee that IF you are able to get X number of people in, you'll make money. That's true, and that's how the people near the top make money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Doesn't that just prove the point? As long as profit is being generated they don't care how the company goes about it but it was always a focus.
    Generating a profit doesn't mean that your only goal is maximum profit. Those aren't the same thing.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  8. #1648
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Generating a profit doesn't mean that your only goal is maximum profit. Those aren't the same thing.
    So how do you know that Blizzard changed goals between the past and now?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1649
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Let's say WoW got a lootbox that had a 99% chance to give you a full set of BiS gear, and it cost $1. Would that be a good loot box?
    From whose point of view? Clearly not Blizzards. But you once again going rogue. You are speaking about a bussiness model not a loot box. it can as well be a guaranteed BiS set for $2. Would it be bad? Nope - well not for players.

    So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  10. #1650
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So how do you know that Blizzard changed goals between the past and now?
    Do you really need me to explain how the company whose mantra was "It will be released when its done" and put an insanely high focus on quality is different from the company that announced WC3 Reforged with a release date before they even put a team together, and then released it missing half the promised features, in a totally buggy and fucked up state?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  11. #1651
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's not lying. They guarantee that IF you are able to get X number of people in, you'll make money. That's true, and that's how the people near the top make money.
    What are you smoking? You are not guaranteed to make money! because your money only comes from the money the people you bring in earn! And the more your X the greater THEIR X, and the greater the X the harder.

    The only people who actually WILL make money is top tier. VIP. Who take their cut from your X and their X, etc

    People near the top are PART of the scheme. Lol.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  12. #1652
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    From whose point of view? Clearly not Blizzards. But you once again going rogue. You are speaking about a bussiness model not a loot box. it can as well be a guaranteed BiS set for $2. Would it be bad? Nope - well not for players.

    So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?
    Loot boxes are a business model. That loot box would be terrible for the vast majority of players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    What are you smoking? You are not guaranteed to make money! because your money only comes from the money the people you bring in earn! And the more your X the greater THEIR X, and the greater the X the harder.

    The only people who actually WILL make money is top tier. VIP.

    People near the top are PART of the scheme. Lol.
    It's not a lie to say "If you bring in X people you will make money".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  13. #1653
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You can't just go into the shop and buy 50 crests to get the thing you want. You have to buy another thing alongside it and then there are these nice "discounts" which you certainly don't want to miss out on...
    And? I never doubted it exists that way so I'm not sure what you are even arguing against. It isn't a problem though because it is just simple basic marketing that is used everywhere in daily life. I'm sure it is even used in your unnamed country with the consumer protection laws you bragged about. Also your list of "how it looks in my store" isn't packages that are half-empty if they are sold to be that way. They are simply packages that have extra space. In regards to chips and other similar products that air has an actual purpose as an protection for the product. The gas is used as a cushion.

    The examples with a date comparison is showing results of inflation and other material increases then it is "half-full" products. You keep moving the goal posts further away from the original comments and context.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #1654
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Loot boxes are a business model. That loot box would be terrible for the vast majority of players.
    No, lootbox is a mechanic of looting system. in-game shop that sells lootboxes - is a business model.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's not a lie to say "If you bring in X people you will make money".
    That's not what they say. They promise riches. No one wants to just make some money. So that line of yours will not work to bring their X people in.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  15. #1655
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And? I never doubted it exists that way so I'm not sure what you are even arguing against. It isn't a problem though because it is just simple basic marketing that is used everywhere in daily life. I'm sure it is even used in your unnamed country with the consumer protection laws you bragged about. Also your list of "how it looks in my store" isn't packages that are half-empty if they are sold to be that way. They are simply packages that have extra space. In regards to chips and other similar products that air has an actual purpose as an protection for the product. The gas is used as a cushion.

    The examples with a date comparison is showing results of inflation and other material increases then it is "half-full" products. You keep moving the goal posts further away from the original comments and context.

    Oh god, you can't make this shit up.
    You are a waste of time and effort. Do your thing, whatever. Enjoy that big fat dick in your ass.

  16. #1656
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Do you really need me to explain how the company whose mantra was "It will be released when its done" and put an insanely high focus on quality is different from the company that announced WC3 Reforged with a release date before they even put a team together, and then released it missing half the promised features, in a totally buggy and fucked up state?
    Is that evidence of a shift in what they care about or just evidence that they made mistakes? It will be released when its done has always been a marketing thing and not an actual rule. Blizzard hasn't delayed things indefinitely until it is perfect but just until it was good enough for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Oh god, you can't make this shit up.
    It is true though. A picture of chocolate figures with different sizes for the same price between years isn't evidence of a package being sold half-empty. It is evidence of a product change which could be for any number of reasons. The package in both cases are full packages. Just like the x-ray of a package with an air cushion is not being sold half-full. It is your ignorance of the reason why there is an air cushion that leads you to that false belief.

    The problem is you are blinded by the need to hate on Blizzard or these things for any reason that you can't see the actual flaws in the argument you are making.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #1657
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Is that evidence of a shift in what they care about or just evidence that they made mistakes? It will be released when its done has always been a marketing thing and not an actual rule. Blizzard hasn't delayed things indefinitely until it is perfect but just until it was good enough for them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is true though. A picture of chocolate figures with different sizes for the same price between years isn't evidence of a package being sold half-empty. It is evidence of a product change which could be for any number of reasons. The package in both cases are full packages. Just like the x-ray of a package with an air cushion is not being sold half-full. It is your ignorance of the reason why there is an air cushion that leads you to that false belief.

    The problem is you are blinded by the need to hate on Blizzard or these things for any reason that you can't see the actual flaws in the argument you are making.
    The problem is the dick is so deep in your ass that you have trouble thinking, you are actually enjoying it.
    There are no "flaws" with these arguments. I even posted the video where it is all explained by someone *doing* it and pitching it to other companies... and you still think it's done for the consumer.

    Here, once again so you can actually see it because you are obviously a bit blind, your precious chips that need cushion.


    200g -> 170g same packaging
    170g -> 195g (still less) SUPER +25g for free PARTY EDITION (price increase btw) - bigger box.
    195g -> 180g "now with more inside" (after the special ended - still less than the initial 200g) small box again
    180g -> 165g same box
    165g -> 190g
    190g -> 200g "NOW 200g super EXTRA DELUXE" (big package again) See how it's the same as in the beginning, just way more pricey and a larger box of course, even though we know the normal box is enough as this has been sold that way for decades.

    almost 100% price increase during that time, when the price for potatoes and production cost was no were even close to that.
    Surely you will now point out missing factors such as wage and all that jazz and simply ignore the fact that none of the box *size* changes were necessary and only done to confuse the consumer.


    Infracted.
    Last edited by xskarma; 2022-06-09 at 09:22 PM.

  18. #1658
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What region are you playing in? In the UK store they're bought singularly or in packs of 10.
    Let me rephrase... The maximum amount of Crests you can buy using a straight conversion of RMT to Orbs to Crests is 45

    Here's the math (for those following along):

    $99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

    In order to get 5 more, you need to spend just a bit more and because there isn't a 800 orb pack (the amount needed for 5 crests), you have to over buy the amount of orbs.

    But wait can't you just buy the smaller increment of orbs (60 orbs for $0.99)? Well again, you still have orbs left over... 50 crests = 8000 orbs which does not divide evenly with 60. (Actual math works out to be $133 and 1/3).

    It's these kinds of systems that I really dislike (and others too)... Why not just come out and have a $100 pack that gives you exactly 8k orbs you would need to buy 50 crests? (or just skip the whole orb conversion).

    A lot of games (including better ones like PoE) have this obfuscation going on with an intermediary currency to actually use their store.
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  19. #1659
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    There are no "flaws" with these arguments.
    So if a package has an air cushion to protect its contents it is still being sold half-full? It is better to not have that air cushion and let the contents get crushed in transit? Chocolate changing size are full packages and more a result of inflation/costs then consumer deception. Again your argument has flaws and there is little reason for you to keep denying it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #1660
    Watched a dude who spent 4k getting a 5-star gem freak out after it got auto-eaten when ranking up another gem, despite him taking the time to make sure it was setup not to.

    Also read about someone upset that they paid to create a clan before joining shadows, and then joining shadows causes the clan to be deleted and the money lost. Blizzard responded saying they have no access in-game to give a refund.

    Amazing game. 10/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post

    $99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).
    The pity system isn't very good either, it's just another ?/5 gem, meaning you would have to trigger it 100 times on average to get an actual 5-star gem from it. Such value, especially if you plan on buying 5,000 crests.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-09 at 08:40 PM.
    (This signature was clearly too awesome for the Avatar & Signature Guidelines and was removed to prevent further facemelting)

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