Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Elim Garak]

Are pyramid schemes not predatory because people choose to buy in? Of course they are predatory, because the fact that people make choices doesn't change whether something is predatory.

They are predatory because people are LIED to.
I don't remember seeing anywhere on any loot box saying "buy this lootbox and get this item" unless it literally gave you that item.

But you are reaching instead of admitting even a iota of possibility of being in the wrong.

Your definition of "predatory" is meaningless because it would mean something as reprehensible as bumfights is not predatory because the targets "chose" to be involved.

I gave no definition

But your definition makes employees who ask for a promotion predatory towards an employer who cannot let them go.

Spectrums, you mean like how implementations of lootboxes exist on a spectrum from good to bad? You also specifically said "the good ones" which necessarily means there are one that are NOT GOOD, also known as BAD.

Lootboxes don't exist on a spectrum (MMOs do). They are a singular mechanic. Which is essential for lootbased games.
Your beef is clearly with the business models. But until you agree that lootboxes are essential and awesome we cannot get to the meat of your problem

[NineSpine]

They are predatory because people are LIED to.
I don't remember seeing any there on any loot box saying "buy this lootbox and get this item" unless it literally gave you that item.

But you are reaching instead of admitting even a iota of possibility of being in the wrong.

Pyramid schemes do not always lie. They often just tell you that if you do X you will make money. What they leave out is that X is not feasible by a certain point in the scheme. There is absolutely no requirement of lying.

I gave no definition

But your definition makes employees who ask for a promotion are predatory towards an employer who cannot let them go.

Lootboxes don't exist on a spectrum (MMOs do). They are a singular mechanic. Which is essential for lootbased games.
Your beef is clearly with the business models. But until you agree that lootboxes are essential and awesome we cannot get to the meat of your problem

Lootboxes are objectively speaking not a singular mechanic. They can be implemented in innumerable different ways. Let me know when you grow up enough to talk about that.

[oplawlz]

Can you cite these studies?

sure: https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=study...m+of+lootboxes

[Elim Garak]

Pyramid schemes do not always lie. They often just tell you that if you do X you will make money. What they leave out is that X is not feasible by a certain point in the scheme. There is absolutely no requirement of lying.

That's literally lying. "Will" != "may or may not". Also lying by omission.
All scams lie. Why are you defending pyramid schemes all of a sudden?

Lootboxes are objectively speaking not a singular mechanic. They can be implemented in innumerable different ways. Let me know when you grow up enough to talk about that.

Lootboxes objectively speaking are a singular mechanic.

Sure one game can be coded in C++ - another game may be C#, and the third game will use RenPy. Different implementations but the mechanic will be the same. There are also different ways of picking a random item - but that's mostly for optimization reasons.

There might be additional mechanics added on top, after the lootbox is opened, but those are separate mechanics.
And we cannot talk about them until lootboxes are awesome.

[NineSpine]

That's literally lying. "Will" != "may or may not". Also lying by omission.
All scams lie. Why are you defending pyramid schemes all of a sudden?

Lootboxes objectively speaking are a singular mechanic.

Sure one game can be coded in C++ - another game may be C#, and the third game will use RenPy. Different implementations but the mechanic will be the same. There are also different ways of picking a random item - but that's mostly for optimization reasons.

There might be additional mechanics added on top, after the lootbox is opened, but those are separate mechanics.
And we cannot talk about them until lootboxes are awesome.

Let's say WoW got a lootbox that had a 99% chance to give you a full set of BiS gear, and it cost $1. Would that be a good loot box?

[rhorle]

Just because you have a parent company doesn't mean anything. I've worked placed with parent companies that didn't give a fuck as long as a profit was generated and never got involved in any decision making.

Doesn't that just prove the point? As long as profit is being generated they don't care how the company goes about it but it was always a focus.

[NineSpine]

That's literally lying. "Will" != "may or may not". Also lying by omission.
All scams lie. Why are you defending pyramid schemes all of a sudden?

That's not lying. They guarantee that IF you are able to get X number of people in, you'll make money. That's true, and that's how the people near the top make money.

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Doesn't that just prove the point? As long as profit is being generated they don't care how the company goes about it but it was always a focus.

Generating a profit doesn't mean that your only goal is maximum profit. Those aren't the same thing.

[rhorle]

Generating a profit doesn't mean that your only goal is maximum profit. Those aren't the same thing.

So how do you know that Blizzard changed goals between the past and now?

[Elim Garak]

Let's say WoW got a lootbox that had a 99% chance to give you a full set of BiS gear, and it cost $1. Would that be a good loot box?

From whose point of view? Clearly not Blizzards. But you once again going rogue. You are speaking about a bussiness model not a loot box. it can as well be a guaranteed BiS set for $2. Would it be bad? Nope - well not for players.

So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?

[NineSpine]

So how do you know that Blizzard changed goals between the past and now?

Do you really need me to explain how the company whose mantra was "It will be released when its done" and put an insanely high focus on quality is different from the company that announced WC3 Reforged with a release date before they even put a team together, and then released it missing half the promised features, in a totally buggy and fucked up state?

[Elim Garak]

That's not lying. They guarantee that IF you are able to get X number of people in, you'll make money. That's true, and that's how the people near the top make money.

What are you smoking? You are not guaranteed to make money! because your money only comes from the money the people you bring in earn! And the more your X the greater THEIR X, and the greater the X the harder.

The only people who actually WILL make money is top tier. VIP. Who take their cut from your X and their X, etc

People near the top are PART of the scheme. Lol.

[NineSpine]

From whose point of view? Clearly not Blizzards. But you once again going rogue. You are speaking about a bussiness model not a loot box. it can as well be a guaranteed BiS set for $2. Would it be bad? Nope - well not for players.

So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?

Loot boxes are a business model. That loot box would be terrible for the vast majority of players.

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What are you smoking? You are not guaranteed to make money! because your money only comes from the money the people you bring in earn! And the more your X the greater THEIR X, and the greater the X the harder.

The only people who actually WILL make money is top tier. VIP.

People near the top are PART of the scheme. Lol.

It's not a lie to say "If you bring in X people you will make money".

[rhorle]

You can't just go into the shop and buy 50 crests to get the thing you want. You have to buy another thing alongside it and then there are these nice "discounts" which you certainly don't want to miss out on...

And? I never doubted it exists that way so I'm not sure what you are even arguing against. It isn't a problem though because it is just simple basic marketing that is used everywhere in daily life. I'm sure it is even used in your unnamed country with the consumer protection laws you bragged about. Also your list of "how it looks in my store" isn't packages that are half-empty if they are sold to be that way. They are simply packages that have extra space. In regards to chips and other similar products that air has an actual purpose as an protection for the product. The gas is used as a cushion.

The examples with a date comparison is showing results of inflation and other material increases then it is "half-full" products. You keep moving the goal posts further away from the original comments and context.

[Elim Garak]

Loot boxes are a business model. That loot box would be terrible for the vast majority of players.

No, lootbox is a mechanic of looting system. in-game shop that sells lootboxes - is a business model.

It's not a lie to say "If you bring in X people you will make money".

That's not what they say. They promise riches. No one wants to just make some money. So that line of yours will not work to bring their X people in.

[KrayZ33]

And? I never doubted it exists that way so I'm not sure what you are even arguing against. It isn't a problem though because it is just simple basic marketing that is used everywhere in daily life. I'm sure it is even used in your unnamed country with the consumer protection laws you bragged about. Also your list of "how it looks in my store" isn't packages that are half-empty if they are sold to be that way. They are simply packages that have extra space. In regards to chips and other similar products that air has an actual purpose as an protection for the product. The gas is used as a cushion.

The examples with a date comparison is showing results of inflation and other material increases then it is "half-full" products. You keep moving the goal posts further away from the original comments and context.

Oh god, you can't make this shit up.
You are a waste of time and effort. Do your thing, whatever. Enjoy that big fat dick in your ass.

[rhorle]

Do you really need me to explain how the company whose mantra was "It will be released when its done" and put an insanely high focus on quality is different from the company that announced WC3 Reforged with a release date before they even put a team together, and then released it missing half the promised features, in a totally buggy and fucked up state?

Is that evidence of a shift in what they care about or just evidence that they made mistakes? It will be released when its done has always been a marketing thing and not an actual rule. Blizzard hasn't delayed things indefinitely until it is perfect but just until it was good enough for them.

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Oh god, you can't make this shit up.

It is true though. A picture of chocolate figures with different sizes for the same price between years isn't evidence of a package being sold half-empty. It is evidence of a product change which could be for any number of reasons. The package in both cases are full packages. Just like the x-ray of a package with an air cushion is not being sold half-full. It is your ignorance of the reason why there is an air cushion that leads you to that false belief.

The problem is you are blinded by the need to hate on Blizzard or these things for any reason that you can't see the actual flaws in the argument you are making.

[KrayZ33]

Is that evidence of a shift in what they care about or just evidence that they made mistakes? It will be released when its done has always been a marketing thing and not an actual rule. Blizzard hasn't delayed things indefinitely until it is perfect but just until it was good enough for them.

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It is true though. A picture of chocolate figures with different sizes for the same price between years isn't evidence of a package being sold half-empty. It is evidence of a product change which could be for any number of reasons. The package in both cases are full packages. Just like the x-ray of a package with an air cushion is not being sold half-full. It is your ignorance of the reason why there is an air cushion that leads you to that false belief.

The problem is you are blinded by the need to hate on Blizzard or these things for any reason that you can't see the actual flaws in the argument you are making.

The problem is the dick is so deep in your ass that you have trouble thinking, you are actually enjoying it.
There are no "flaws" with these arguments. I even posted the video where it is all explained by someone *doing* it and pitching it to other companies... and you still think it's done for the consumer.

Here, once again so you can actually see it because you are obviously a bit blind, your precious chips that need cushion.


200g -> 170g same packaging
170g -> 195g (still less) SUPER +25g for free PARTY EDITION (price increase btw) - bigger box.
195g -> 180g "now with more inside" (after the special ended - still less than the initial 200g) small box again
180g -> 165g same box
165g -> 190g
190g -> 200g "NOW 200g super EXTRA DELUXE" (big package again) See how it's the same as in the beginning, just way more pricey and a larger box of course, even though we know the normal box is enough as this has been sold that way for decades.

almost 100% price increase during that time, when the price for potatoes and production cost was no were even close to that.
Surely you will now point out missing factors such as wage and all that jazz and simply ignore the fact that none of the box *size* changes were necessary and only done to confuse the consumer.


Infracted.

[Alroxas]

What region are you playing in? In the UK store they're bought singularly or in packs of 10.

Let me rephrase... The maximum amount of Crests you can buy using a straight conversion of RMT to Orbs to Crests is 45

Here's the math (for those following along):

$99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

In order to get 5 more, you need to spend just a bit more and because there isn't a 800 orb pack (the amount needed for 5 crests), you have to over buy the amount of orbs.

But wait can't you just buy the smaller increment of orbs (60 orbs for $0.99)? Well again, you still have orbs left over... 50 crests = 8000 orbs which does not divide evenly with 60. (Actual math works out to be $133 and 1/3).

It's these kinds of systems that I really dislike (and others too)... Why not just come out and have a $100 pack that gives you exactly 8k orbs you would need to buy 50 crests? (or just skip the whole orb conversion).

A lot of games (including better ones like PoE) have this obfuscation going on with an intermediary currency to actually use their store.

[rhorle]

There are no "flaws" with these arguments.

So if a package has an air cushion to protect its contents it is still being sold half-full? It is better to not have that air cushion and let the contents get crushed in transit? Chocolate changing size are full packages and more a result of inflation/costs then consumer deception. Again your argument has flaws and there is little reason for you to keep denying it.

[Jerot]

Watched a dude who spent 4k getting a 5-star gem freak out after it got auto-eaten when ranking up another gem, despite him taking the time to make sure it was setup not to.

Also read about someone upset that they paid to create a clan before joining shadows, and then joining shadows causes the clan to be deleted and the money lost. Blizzard responded saying they have no access in-game to give a refund.

Amazing game. 10/10

$99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

The pity system isn't very good either, it's just another ?/5 gem, meaning you would have to trigger it 100 times on average to get an actual 5-star gem from it. Such value, especially if you plan on buying 5,000 crests.