1. #1661
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So if a package has an air cushion to protect its contents it is still being sold half-full? It is better to not have that air cushion and let the contents get crushed in transit? Chocolate changing size are full packages and more a result of inflation/costs then consumer deception. Again your argument has flaws and there is little reason for you to keep denying it.
    See the post I just edited.
    You are only focusing on "what ifs" and imaginary problems that don't exist, not on the actual facts and why the companies do it.

    Explain to me why the size changed, and only when it's in favor to their new deal and never when it's to their disadvantage. Go on. I'll wait.

  2. #1662
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    So if 100% chance of getting BiS gear for $2 is not bad. And lootboxes are awesome - where the bad part comes from?
    The bad part is the amount the lootbox costs. Replace $2 with a higher price tag, say $10,000 - is that a good loot box then? Sure for players who can afford it, but for the rest of the player base it's bad in that unless you're already rich, you might as well be a "lesser" citizen in this virtual world.

    And we kind of already see this in WoW... How much did Limit spend in their pursuit of R2WF? While it's not a Blizzard sanctioned event, the availability of player power through gold purchases (indirectly supported by wow token as a conversion to RMT) means that it's next to impossible for other groups to even stand a chance against the titans (i.e. Limit, Echo, etc) unless they have serious money backing them.


    Don't get me wrong, sure DI might be good for the casuals who want to infrequently dip in, it's probably fine but for more dedicated players, the MTX of DI are a hard wall to cross over and it's devalues DI (along with the Diablo franchise) for the rest of the player base.

    Sure some claim that it's a free mobile game so it's going to have these MTX systems in it but what if that carries forward to D4? Where if you wanted to run more than 1 greater rift a day you need to pony up some cash? Or if you want a "juicy" greater rift that offers more rewards, you need to apply a "legendary crest"-like item to your run (which are limited in supply unless you want to pay up)?

    Back in 2006 there was a large outcry when Horse Armor was sold for $2.50 for TESIV, how much are players willing to pay now in 2022/2023?
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  3. #1663
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Let me rephrase... The maximum amount of Crests you can buy using a straight conversion of RMT to Orbs to Crests is 45

    Here's the math (for those following along):

    $99.99 USD buys you 7200 orbs (6000 + 1200 value added pack! /s) which divided by 160 per Crest yields 45 crests. 5 short of the 50 crests that would trigger the pity system (aka bad luck protection).

    In order to get 5 more, you need to spend just a bit more and because there isn't a 800 orb pack (the amount needed for 5 crests), you have to over buy the amount of orbs.

    But wait can't you just buy the smaller increment of orbs (60 orbs for $0.99)? Well again, you still have orbs left over... 50 crests = 8000 orbs which does not divide evenly with 60. (Actual math works out to be $133 and 1/3).

    It's these kinds of systems that I really dislike (and others too)... Why not just come out and have a $100 pack that gives you exactly 8k orbs you would need to buy 50 crests? (or just skip the whole orb conversion).

    A lot of games (including better ones like PoE) have this obfuscation going on with an intermediary currency to actually use their store.
    There's a very simple explanation: overthinking with maths.

    Orbs are not used just for crests. You are so focused on Legendary Gems that you constructed this false narrative that Orb packs are designed around crests and thus must give exactly the amount of orbs to buy 50 because of a bad luck protection that kicks in.

    Orbs are your usual Hard Currency that you buy with real money to buy in-game stuff. And it is always priced against a Real Currency.
    For instance in US store it's 1$ per 60, or one orb per ~15 cents. All other packs are scaled up at that rate. Plus a value added in 5% increments - up to 20%.

    For example for the top pack to give you 8000 orbs the added value percent will have to be 30% which is not inline with the current system, but those % can be easily changed in the future (if need be - say packs don't sell well), and there's also gonna be sales with discounts.

    So a player buying two packs and having extra Orbs - is not losing anything. He has his 50+ packs for bad luck protection and orbs to buy other IMPORTANT stuff.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  4. #1664
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It is a FACT that DI has loot boxes which you can spend $10,000+ on without getting the item you need.

    I'm sorry that this FACT is inconvenient for your argument, but FACTS don't magically transform into opinions and logical fallacies and loaded whatever just because they are inconvenient for your horseshit sophistry.
    Diablo: Immortal doesn't have lootboxes. It has Rift things and items you can purchase that give extra loot from those Rift things but that's not the same concept. Unless you're doing that thing where you care more about how you feel about a word rather than what it means, in which case I can be arsed arguing about that crap any more.

  5. #1665
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    See the post I just edited.
    You are only focusing on "what ifs" and imaginary problems that don't exist, not on the actual facts and why the companies do it.

    Explain to me why the size changed, and only when it's in favor to their new deal and never when it's to their disadvantage. Go on. I'll wait.
    Even the pringles mascot has become a soulless puppet, driven only by greed. Stare deep into his cold dead eyes and witness the horror of powdered potatoes, vegetable oil, and unbridled capitalism.

    For real though, the person you're replying to seems to love talking about anything other than the game itself, because they can't actually defend it. A lot of people here just don't care, the rather use it as an excuse to troll people who do. That or feel offended that someone doesn't share their opinion of the game and takes any criticism of it as a personal attack.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Diablo: Immortal doesn't have lootboxes. It has Rift things and items you can purchase that give extra loot from those Rift things but that's not the same concept. Unless you're doing that thing where you care more about how you feel about a word rather than what it means, in which case I can be arsed arguing about that crap any more.
    Rift things eh.

    You mean elder rifts and crests? And the gems you can only get from crests? Or craft with materials you get from crests? You can also get the materials with fading embers I suppose... that you only get by running crests.

    CSGO doesn't have loot boxes either, you pay to watch the parade of guns scrolling by with fancy animations and sounds, and you get a free gun at the end! It's not even called a "box" and the game doesn't have "loot".
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-09 at 08:55 PM.
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  6. #1666
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Even the pringles mascot has become a soulless puppet, driven only by greed. Stare deep into his cold dead eyes and witness the horror of powdered potatoes, vegetable oil, and unbridled capitalism.

    For real though, the person you're replying to seems to love talking about anything other than the game itself, because they can't actually defend it. A lot of people here just don't care, the rather use it as an excuse to troll people who do.
    The annoying thing is that they look at every piece of shit this game does "as a single offender" play it down (while also saying it's not good practice) and say it's not as bad, not realizing that it all plays together to a massive pile of dung stacked so high that there is at hardly enough room to actually believe anything in this game was done in good faith or for the sake of creating a good game.

    It's a confusing price model, made with obstacles and barriers and extra step, it lures you in with "super value"-offers that aren't "actual" offers considering the price of the "standard" product is basically usury.
    The game mechanics as well are designed *around* the shop, literally making the game worse to play no matter HOW you look at it.
    The game *is* worse than how it could be.
    And Blizzard isn't doing a sharp calculation here always on the edge of going bankrupt. They have absolutely *0* interest in giving the player a good experience with their monetization. And that is despicable and bad practice and consumer unfriendly. Using tricks alongside all that is what makes it even worse. Borderline, but not actually, illegal even.

    Deceptive pricing (bait and switch) and other unfair trade practices come to mind for example.
    (edit: just to clarify, they don't actually do a bait and switch)
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-09 at 09:08 PM.

  7. #1667
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    The bad part is the amount the lootbox costs. Replace $2 with a higher price tag, say $10,000 - is that a good loot box then? Sure for players who can afford it, but for the rest of the player base it's bad in that unless you're already rich, you might as well be a "lesser" citizen in this virtual world.
    That's some subjective stuff. I don't consider some players who cannot afford a 10k lootbox as an indicator that it's bad. it's only bad if not enough people buy it. Then the price will be lowered. Until it reaches the optimal value for the market. It's economics 101.

    It's like shitting on a red ferarri because you cannot afford it.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  8. #1668
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You are only focusing on "what ifs" and imaginary problems that don't exist, not on the actual facts and why the companies do it.
    How is it a what if when you brought it up as an example to support your argument? That means you are the one focusing on a what if of packages being sold half-full and not me. It is your argument lmao. Amazing how you dismiss your incorrect examples as me focusing on the wrong thing and not you ignoring actual facts. In most cases a company will change a product to favor themselves. I'm not sure why I need to explain that to you.
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  9. #1669
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    The annoying thing is that they look at every piece of shit this game does "as a single offender"
    Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your point here, but everyone has said that this ISN'T a new thing, or a "single offender". That this is the mobile market in a nutshell.

  10. #1670
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    A simple "no" would have sufficed.

  11. #1671
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    It's like shitting on a red ferarri because you cannot afford it.
    A ferrari costs money to produce, continues to hold value once bought, and is useful outside of the shop you bought it in.

    We're talking about paying to overcome a virtual hurdle in a video game.

    They made that hurdle impossibly hard to cross without paying, to create demand for a shortcut. And set the price of that shortcut so high, you could instead spend it going halfsies on a Red Ferrari Portofino. This is the hill you choose to fight on?
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-09 at 09:07 PM.
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  12. #1672
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    A ferrari costs money to produce, continues to hold value once bought, and is useful outside of the shop you bought it in.

    We're talking about paying to overcome a virtual hurdle in a video game.

    They made that hurdle impossibly hard to cross without paying to create demand for a shortcut. And set the price of that shortcut so high, you could instead spend it going halfsies on a Red Ferrari Portofino. This is the hill you choose to fight on?
    Value is in the eye of the buyer.
    In case of the in-game items - it's the entertainment value. You don't get to decide how valuable it is for other people.
    If you don't see value (but we both know that you do because if you didn't you would just call those who pay for it - stupid and moved on - but you are here) - don't pay for it.

    But the mere fact that there are people who pay for it and don't ask for refunds - means it has value.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  13. #1673
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How is it a what if when you brought it up as an example to support your argument? That means you are the one focusing on a what if of packages being sold half-full and not me. It is your argument lmao. Amazing how you dismiss your incorrect examples as me focusing on the wrong thing and not you ignoring actual facts. In most cases a company will change a product to favor themselves. I'm not sure why I need to explain that to you.
    Dude... stop wasting my time, I gave you like 20 examples of packaging issues, with real life pictures. You chose an imaginary example I didn't present and made a point out of it.
    I mentioned packages, not "bags of chips that are filled with air" or whatever. I even went out of my way to explain the situation with the pringles package and how it transformed over a relatively short timespan and *HOW* they did it. (see, that's the important part, *HOW* they did it.)
    Amazing how you always never adress the points being made and play the ignorant fool.



    Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your point here, but everyone has said that this ISN'T a new thing, or a "single offender". That this is the mobile market in a nutshell.
    I'm saying that people pick one thing out of the list and say "this isn't so bad" and then ignore the rest, not realizing that all the "not so bad points" create a massive pile of shit.
    It should be obviously that with "people" I don't mean every single human being that has ever commented on this subject, in case that wasn't clear.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-09 at 09:20 PM.

  14. #1674
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I'm saying that people pick one thing out of the list and say "this isn't so bad" and then ignore the rest, not realizing that all the "not so bad points" create a massive pile of shit.
    Oh, fair enough.

  15. #1675
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Orbs are not used just for crests. You are so focused on Legendary Gems that you constructed this false narrative that Orb packs are designed around crests and thus must give exactly the amount of orbs to buy 50 because of a bad luck protection that kicks in.
    You must have never played a gacha game before.
    The Legendary Crest (premium currency) is the most and only important thing in a gacha game.
    Some people login in and do only events which can gain premium currency. Then logout.
    If there is no premium currency, they don't even login.

    Blizzard doesn't know how the gacha game works.
    It expects people to grind for "useless" resources, and have premium currency on top of it.

  16. #1676
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Well I'd be careful there because by that argument, Big Tobacco shouldn't be liable for all the millions of people affected hooked on their product.
    idk, im pretty sure most people are not against big tobaco due to cigaretes causing addiction and costing money, its more the cancer, death, the damage it causes to organism not only of the smoker but of bystanders too...
    so comparing that to games is one of the worst analogies ive ever seen...

  17. #1677
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Dude... stop wasting my time, I gave you like 20 examples of packaging issues, with real life pictures.
    Packaging issues that don't indicate they are being sold half-full. There are reasons why some have empty spaces in the packaging that you didn't acknowledge. It doesn't indicate that the package has labels for how much is in the package as well. So there is nothing predatory about it. Inflation, material costs, and a whole bunch of different things go into the differences.

    It doesn't apply to DI selling currency that only allows you to buy 45 crests instead of 50. Is it a trick to get you to maybe buy more? Sure. But it is one a person willingly chooses to do. Could they have made the highest package give 50 crests? Certainly. Would it have been better? Sure. It isn't predatory, unethical, or a big deal that they didn't do that though. If you are buying to ensure bad luck protection you are already aware of what you have to buy and making the active decision to do so. These tricks exist everywhere and are not really bad. Sometimes it works out in favor of the consumer with buy 1 get 1 free when they want two things and sometimes it just gets them to spend when they don't need more.

    I'm saying that people pick one thing out of the list and say "this isn't so bad" and then ignore the rest
    No one is ignoring the rest though. People are taking issue with specific arguments you are making that don't apply. Just like you imply that quote was from me by leaving out the name of the actual person that posted it. Just because other things are bad doesn't mean you get carte blanche to make up anything you want just as long as it is also negative/hate about DI, Blizzard, or whatever the target of ire is.
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  18. #1678
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    You must have never played a gacha game before.
    The Legendary Crest (premium currency)
    Crests are not premium currency. Orbs are.
    Crests are just items you use to modify rifts to give you gems as a reward.
    But what do I know, I never played a gacha game before.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2022 - that's two-zero-two-two, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of double-masked tripple-jabbed sissies who stand with Ukraine.

  19. #1679
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Rift things eh.

    You mean elder rifts and crests? And the gems you can only get from crests? Or craft with materials you get from crests? You can also get the materials with fading embers I suppose... that you only get by running crests.

    CSGO doesn't have loot boxes either, you pay to watch the parade of guns scrolling by with fancy animations and sounds, and you get a free gun at the end! It's not even called a "box" and the game doesn't have "loot".
    Rift things are a part of the game that can be played with or without the Crests. The Crests themselves change what loot you can get from the Rifts. You can think of them as loot-boxes with extra stages if you like but they are missing out on key components that can make loot-boxes such a predatory product akin to gambling (and classified as gambling in some jurisdictions.) If you want to call them loot-boxes because you associate that word with bad feelings I can't be arsed arguing against it, but they are not the same thing beyond you being able to describe both as shitty MTX.

  20. #1680
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    So a player buying two packs and having extra Orbs - is not losing anything. He has his 50+ packs for bad luck protection and orbs to buy other IMPORTANT stuff.
    Well you may have tried the game (assuming that other post wasn't a lie), but obviously you haven't looked in it very hard. There is nothing else important to buy with orbs. Maybe Dawning Echoes once you finishing ranking up your gems? But to even get to that point you've already spent 100x the cost of the echoes in crests.

    Gems are the only uncapped system to increase your character power with, everything else is on timers, even for the richest of pay to win players. Buying everything else in the store, to the point where you had nothing usable to buy until they patch in more stuff, would cost you less than 1% of what you could spend on crests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Rift things are a part of the game that can be played with or without the Crests. The Crests themselves change what loot you can get from the Rifts. You can think of them as loot-boxes with extra stages if you like but they are missing out on key components that can make loot-boxes such a predatory product akin to gambling (and classified as gambling in some jurisdictions.) If you want to call them loot-boxes because you associate that word with bad feelings I can't be arsed arguing against it, but they are not the same thing beyond you being able to describe both as shitty MTX.

    CSGO cases are a part of the game that can be found with or without buying keys. The keys change what value you get from finding cases (selling them vs opening them).

    What key components are they missing, that you can't cash out the rewards directly for money?

    Technically you can't in CSGO either, it's against ToS. At best you can put them on the market for steam credit which is locked to the platform. Kind of like selling legendary gems on the market for platinum.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-09 at 09:39 PM.
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