Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[Ghost of Cow]

You have said it throughout the thread, in many various ways. The fact that you don't believe you have isn't evidence to the contrary. The other looney is even worse.

Why lie about something that's right here in text?

Sure, and I agree that regulation is important. But this isn't drinking water, or child labor, or food supply, or unsafe work environments, or any of that.

[Delekii]

That's all well and good, but the mobile market is what it is for a reason. And millions of people enjoy it just fine.

Most of this just comes down to, "This isn't what *I* wanted, so it's bad."

You're absolutely right. What I want is a society that protects vulnerable people from predators.

[NineSpine]

That's all well and good, but the mobile market is what it is for a reason. And millions of people enjoy it just fine.

Most of this just comes down to, "This isn't what *I* wanted, so it's bad."

Or "This is predatory, so its bad".

[Ghost of Cow]

You're absolutely right. What I want is a society that protects vulnerable people from predators.

And then we're right back to the argument that we need to ban all bad choices.

[Delekii]

Why lie about something that's right here in text?

What you said is "regulation is important, but not really".

[Ghost of Cow]

What you said is "regulation is important, but not really".

So you're just going to make things up - even in defiance of things written right there in black and white - just so you can keep slapping negative labels on people who disagree with you.

Ok. I'll just assume you're another one of the bad faith posters.

[Delekii]

And then we're right back to the argument that we need to ban all bad choices.

Reducto ad absurdium.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're just going to make things up - even in defiance of things written right there in black and white - just so you can keep slapping negative labels on people who disagree with you.

Ok. I'll just assume you're another one of the bad faith posters.

What's written right there is not evidence that you support regulation, it's evidence that you support the regulation you agree with, which is exactly the same as me.

[Ghost of Cow]

Reducto ad absurdium.

Except it's not.

Nothing about D:I MTX is lying to you. You're not being sold a cigarette that you're told is safe. You're not having something dumped in your drinking water. You're not being sold a supposedly safe car that catches on fire.

No, you're told exactly what you're buying and why. If you indulge in that, you're making a poor decision. If you want to regulate that, then you're talking about regulating everything from unhealthy food to foolhardy spending.

- - - Updated - - -

What's written right there is not evidence that you support regulation, it's evidence that you support the regulation you agree with, which is exactly the same as me.

Wait, so which guy am I now? The one that believes in regulations "the same as you", or the one that's "Trumpian" and doesn't want any regulation?

[Delekii]

Except it's not.

Nothing about D:I MTX is lying to you. You're not being sold a cigarette that you're told is safe. You're not having something dumped in your drinking water. You're not being sold a supposedly safe car that catches on fire.

No, you're told exactly what you're buying and why. If you indulge in that, you're making a poor decision. If you want to regulate that, then you're talking about regulating everything from unhealthy food to foolhardy spending.

This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to start.
The game lies by ommission constantly.
The game is designed specifically to encourage addictive behavior.
Addictive behavior is a well documented issue that causes massive loss around the world, and is heavily regulated in all other spheres it exists in besides online because of this.
Bad eating habits are.massively problematic and expensive and absolutely should be more heavily regulated than it is, as suggested by nearly every health body on existence.

As a start.

Wait, so which guy am I now? The one that believes in regulations "the same as you", or the one that's "Trumpian" and doesn't want any regulation?

You are Trumpian, in that you believe only in those regulations which stand to benefit you.

[Ghost of Cow]

You are Trumpian, in that you believe only in those regulations which stand to benefit you.

Ah, so I'm "Trumpian" "the same as you".

Just want to make sure I know what to put in my Twitter bio.

[Delekii]

Ah, so I'm "Trumpian" "the same as you".

Just want to make sure I know what to put in my Twitter bio.

That's right, continue arguing semantics where clear meaning exists, it's a wonderful argumentative tactic. Very Trumpian indeed.

[Ghost of Cow]

That's right, continue arguing semantics where clear meaning exists, it's a wonderful argumentative tactic. Very Trumpian indeed.

Or perhaps it's more "Trumpian" to sling labels and names at your opponents.

After all, I'm "the same as you" and "Trumpian" so you must be "Trumpian" as well.

We're gonna get along great!

[Delekii]

Or perhaps it's more "Trumpian" to sling labels and names at your opponents.

After all, I'm "the same as you" and "Trumpian" so you must be "Trumpian" as well.

We're gonna get along great!

I'm looking back at your post history,I'm not even sure why we're arguing. Why were you agianst lost ark removing content to convince people to spend money, but you're ok with Blizzard making the game less fun to coerce people to spend money?

To be honest, when people argue like you do I go back to their history and it's almost universally formulaic, very predictable, but yours isn't. I don't really understand how you can be pro Blizzard in this instance.

[Ghost of Cow]

I'm looking back at your post history,I'm not even sure why we're arguing. Why were you agianst lost ark removing content to convince people to spend money, but you're ok with Blizzard making the game less fun to coerce people to spend money?

Wow, you must have gone back pretty far for that one.

I hate to cross-pollinate between threads, but my main gripe about Lost Ark doing that was that the content already existed. They just chose not to include it. Granted, it wasn't some kind of game-breaker for me, but I definitely rolled my eyes at it. I have no problem with their monetization being what it is, but it's ok to be honest about their motivations, too.

D:I is definitely also doing things to get people to spend money, of course. I'm not going to deny that, naturally. I just don't see a problem with a game that lets you do all the content for free. (Which, compared with Lost Ark which wanted to gate you out of the content, isn't so bad. Not that you needed to spend in Lost Ark either, of course.)

To be honest, when people argue like you do I go back to their history and it's almost universally formulaic, very predictable, but yours isn't. I don't really understand how you can be pro Blizzard in this instance.

Well, I'm a super complex and nuanced person, of course!

But for real, it's not that I particularly like the nagging nature of F2P mechanics. I'd rather just B2P most of my games and be done with it and get the full experience. But I can also just enjoy F2P games as they're presented without spending - my wife and I have played this one silly F2P city building game for like 5 years and I haven't ever spent a dime.

[rhorle]

Addictive behavior is a well documented issue that causes massive loss around the world, and is heavily regulated in all other spheres it exists in besides online because of this.

It isn't heavily regulated in all other sphere it exists except for online. You can buy physical loot boxes called "blind bags" even in countries that ban loot boxes online. Or Pokemon cards packs. There are plenty of other addictive behaviors that are not regulated or at least not "heavily" regulated. There are some that are even regulated because of other attributes that don't have to do with the addictive nature.

[Tyris Flare]

never mind, not worth it

[Ghost of Cow]

It isn't heavily regulated in all other sphere it exists except for online. You can buy physical loot boxes called "blind bags" even in countries that ban loot boxes online. Or Pokemon cards packs. There are plenty of other addictive behaviors that are not regulated or at least not "heavily" regulated. There are some that are even regulated because of other attributes that don't have to do with the addictive nature.

Yeah, the online regulations are interesting.

It's like poker. Was online poker banned in the US because it was so evil, or because brick and mortar casinos were unhappy about it?

We've been told to rant and rail about loot boxes - and very specific types of loot boxes - but we seem to give other forms of the same concepts a pass, especially physical ones.

[Jerot]

Just stop. You can play the entire game for free. You admitted as such once already yet just like with the loot box thing you refuse to actually accept it.

I have said entire story, I have never said entire game, these are two different things. If someone considers the game they want to play to just be the story, then yes, they can play through the "entire game". Everyone has different stopping points. The wall we're talking about isn't "acquiring perfect gear".

But I don't expect you to agree with anything I say based on your history in this thread. It feels like some people rather put their own words in my mouth to argue against than take what I say at face value.

And I don't have to accept diddly, I'm here to have mutual constructive conversations. You're welcome to disagree with my opinions and conclusions, but if you want to actually change minds you have to argue to a point. Why are things not the way we see them, why does X matter but not Y. We get nowhere circling around silly semantics. You give nothing you get nothing.

The answer to that will almost certainly be, "No you can't. Getting BiS gear is part of the game that you can't play."

For someone who accuses people of being obsessed with BiS, you sure do bring it up a lot.

There is stuff you cannot reasonably interact with unless you pay. You won't get into the higher ranks of hell (requirement for wearing gear) or rifts. You can't awaken your 1-star gem gear let alone getting enough 5-star gems to awaken something with those because the Dawning Echos cost $$$. The big "become the immortal" PvP/Clan focus will be entirely out of reach unless you open your wallet.

You can play Diablo 3 without getting Ancient or Primal Ancient gear too, you're just going to run out of stuff to work towards very quickly. The entire game is about progressively making your character stronger through paragons and gear acquisition. But your paragon is capped to the server and your gear is locked behind pay-only upgrades.

I mean I've explained this at least a dozen different ways, and you can play the game and see for yourself, or watch basically any content creator, hardcore diablo fans, people who are pro-P2W and blizzard. Everyone has their own criticisms of the game. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy it your own way if you want to. But you enjoying the game doesn't mean there aren't things about it that could be improved to make it a better experience for everyone

We just think there are easy things they could have done (and could still do) to make the game a better experience for both paying and free players. More fun for us, more profit for them.

You guys just want to argue every point ad infinitum without contributing to the wider discussion. The game is fine because look at these other games, things don't have to change, but they could, but they don't have to, and they will if they need to. There's no valid reason to criticize anything for any reason.

Even if you aren't against loot boxes, surely that people can spend $10,000 to not get something they might want up to 36 of is madness. Especially when its basically the only thing for whales to spend on. If rates weren't so atrocious the backlash wouldn't be nearly as bad. Taking years to complete the most basic level upgrade to endgame gear is pretty terrible compared to most F2P P2W titles out there. It's bad for Blizzards already spotty reputation and the long term survival of the game.

[BeepBoo]

That's not true, that's just your kinky fantasy. In most cases whales and free players cooperate. Because both groups need each other.

This is a fat lie. Even in games like onmyoji, whales do like 95% of boss dps on cooperative modes. Why do they "need" non-whales? Simple: they don't. Non-whales likely need whales, though.

[Ghost of Cow]

Even if you aren't against loot boxes, surely that people can spend $10,000 to not get something they might want up to 36 of is madness.

This seems to be the issue for a lot of people, and I'm sure it's an emotional reaction to the number, but I guess I can't be sure. But ultimately, no, I really don't care about the "whale cap". I don't even want to think about what Genshin whales have spent, and that's their prerogative.

Would it suck to spend that much and not get what you want? Sure. Would that deter me from whaling? Well, I guess so, but I would never whale to begin with. Do I see it as a problem in and of itself? No, not really. It might be a bad choice for Blizz because of just how non-deterministic it is compared to something like Genshin that at least has somewhat more reasonable pity systems. I don't know enough of the details of their finances to be sure.

At the end of the day, would I ever even entertain the idea of spending tens of thousands - or even just thousands, or even hundreds for that matter! - on stuff in a game? Hell no. I'm a huge miser. Do I think there should be some guardrails on that kind of spending? Perhaps, but really only insofar as minors should be kept away from it. Do I think it should be illegal for adults? Of course not.