Oh Blizzard, how you have fallen (Diablo Immortal).

[rhorle]

Nice try, Bobby - but customers can easily tell how predatory and even not-as-predatory monetization crap affects the overall product quality and development process.

In the case of DI how has it effected the product and development process? The game play loop is pretty much the same as D3. So it seems like monetization has had little impact on the over all game other then to offer a "speed up" in farming time.

[Greyvax]

Why are people so salty about a free game? You don't need to spend any money to get things done in this game. People just love to hate on blizzard for literally anything and everything.

The game is actually fun, and better than I expected it would be (had low expectations from the get go).

[Elim Garak]

Why are people so salty about a free game? You don't need to spend any money to get things done in this game. People just love to hate on blizzard for literally anything and everything.

The game is actually fun, and better than I expected it would be (had low expectations from the get go).

Well Blizzard deserves all the hate it can get.
But the ability of people to complain about free stuff will never get old.
It's like they didn't hear the proverb "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
And the fact that they complain about having to pay for something they don't even need - is the cherry on top.

[Beefhammer]

Are you sure?
I just spent $14000 and expect to get a full refund when the beta is over.

Joke aside, it uses Gacha games' formula.
The screen is full with annoying red dots and ask you to click here and there.

Yes. No progress wipe.

- - - Updated - - -

Did you buy the Collector's Empowered Battle Pass?

Haven't spent a dime.

[hecpercu]

Honestly and i sht on blizz every day Of the year, what did you expect? Its a f2p mobile game,and by todays standards is normal,i will never play a mobile game thats why i have a 3k€ pc , and as a father i will never ley my boy spend a penny in any game Of the kind,so its easy, f2p it, or dont play it.

[PC2]

as a father i will never ley my boy spend a penny in any game Of the kind

If he has his own money then it's fine to spend it on videogames or in-game digital content. Kids don't usually invest their money into something that appreciates in value anyways, which means it doesn't really matter what they buy. They should just buy whichever thing brings them the most satisfaction regardless of what it is.

[Fitsu]

Well Blizzard deserves all the hate it can get.
But the ability of people to complain about free stuff will never get old.
It's like they didn't hear the proverb "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
And the fact that they complain about having to pay for something they don't even need - is the cherry on top.

Again, I feel like it's been mentioned several times and conviently ignored by everyone defending it. It is not the need for payment that is the problem, it's not even the cost that is the problem. It's the game design that is the problem. There are several F2P games I have played and I have spent hundreds of pounds on with zero regrets. All these games have one thing in common, the game and it's mechanics are clearly design with gameplay first, fun first there's no mechanic there that I felt only exists to coax people into spending.

In stark contract what I am met with in Diablo: Immortal is costant sales tactics to try to get me into spending, every mechanic clearly designed with the intent of getting people on that spending ladder, constant reminders that your not getting as much out of the game as you could be if you just spent oh that little starting cost. Your reward for clearing the first dungeon is an opportunity to spend money at a discount, they shoe-horn rifts in at the start of the game because you need to buy rift tokens with money and they want that front and centre. They want that in your brain right away. It's painfully obvious that every decision made in Diablo: Immortal, every mechanic, how long the grind is, how you are rewarded is all designed with the thought of "how can we get them to spend money" and not "does this make the game better".

There are two directions when making a F2P game, you either make a good game so that people will spend money to support it. Or you make a game that tries to coax people into spending money via predatory sales tactics and Diablo Immortal is the latter, that is my complaint. The sad part is aswell, beneath all the mechanics that just don't need to exist Diablo: Immortal is probably a good game but it's bloated with all these things that devalue the experience in attempts to make money.

And yes, ofcourse I can just not play the game. For that matter I am not playing the game. But I have read stories of people that simply aren't good at managing their money, that have gambling problems, that fall for the sales tricks and before they know it that $1 entry cost has lead to them spending $200, $300 and these companies target those people with these predatory mechanics. That's why these sales-esque tactics are there, there's no other reason and don't pretend sales tactics don't work because look at the rest of the world. I just don't like the direction my favourite form of media is going. I don't like that games are being developed with profit first and fun second.

And to blame the weak-willed for falling for the tricks, rather than blaming the company for using them. Shame.

[Hctaz]

However you do get a reward for clearing the first dungeon it just also advertises a "new player" bundle.

My brother in Christ, no.

It's not just the new player bundle. By defeating the Skeleton King, you literally unlock the ability to purchase the Mad King's Bundle for $0.99. It straight up tells you that you've earned the right to purchase this bundle because you've beaten the Skeleton King LOL

That's EXTREMELY scummy.

[Elim Garak]

Again, I feel like it's been mentioned several times and conviently ignored by everyone defending it. It is not the need for payment that is the problem, it's not even the cost that is the problem. It's the game design that is the problem. There are several F2P games I have played and I have spent hundreds of pounds on with zero regrets. All these games have one thing in common, the game and it's mechanics are clearly design with gameplay first, fun first there's no mechanic there that I felt only exists to coax people into spending.

In stark contract what I am met with in Diablo: Immortal is costant sales tactics to try to get me into spending, every mechanic clearly designed with the intent of getting people on that spending ladder, constant reminders that your not getting as much out of the game as you could be if you just spent oh that little starting cost. Your reward for clearing the first dungeon is an opportunity to spend money at a discount, they shoe-horn rifts in at the start of the game because you need to buy rift tokens with money and they want that front and centre. They want that in your brain right away. It's painfully obvious that every decision made in Diablo: Immortal, every mechanic, how long the grind is, how you are rewarded is all designed with the thought of "how can we get them to spend money" and not "does this make the game better".

There are two directions when making a F2P game, you either make a good game so that people will spend money to support it. Or you make a game that tries to coax people into spending money via predatory sales tactics and Diablo Immortal is the latter, that is my complaint. The sad part is aswell, beneath all the mechanics that just don't need to exist Diablo: Immortal is probably a good game but it's bloated with all these things that devalue the experience in attempts to make money.

And yes, ofcourse I can just not play the game. For that matter I am not playing the game. But I have read stories of people that simply aren't good at managing their money, that have gambling problems, that fall for the sales tricks and before they know it that $1 entry cost has lead to them spending $200, $300 and these companies target those people with these predatory mechanics. That's why these sales-esque tactics are there, there's no other reason and don't pretend sales tactics don't work because look at the rest of the world. I just don't like the direction my favourite form of media is going. I don't like that games are being developed with profit first and fun second.

And to blame the weak-willed for falling for the tricks, rather than blaming the company for using them. Shame.

That's just your personal opinion that you inflated into a first world problem.

And there's a lot of misconceptions in how you see it, no one specifically targets people who can be easily exploited like that - that's some villain stuff from fiction. Also such people are a minority. And even without f2p games that "exploit" them - they still have the gambling problem and spend money on it somewhere else. And if you suggest regulating everything to protect them - I'm AGAINST that. This is the point you seem to miss. Government involvement/regulations is bad 99% of the time. Especially under a pretense of helping a minority.

The target audience for f2p games is split into groups by the paying capability of the targeted market. They have the big data, they know average disposable incomes, so they can project revenue from people who are willing to pay. No one even factors in gambling addiction. Not even Chinese companies. They don't need to be that evil. But they do employ different strategies and flexible offers depending on the group you are - if they know what group you are. Very quickly they distinguish those who pays and those who doesn't. Once you pay even the smallest amount - you are in the group of spenders, and subject to different sales scenario.

This is no different from ANY KIND OF SALES in all other industries. Singling out games is silly. Banning sales across the board even sillier.

The most revenue comes from whales anyway (and ads) - and contrary to your opinion - whales are not poor exploited people with gambling addiction. Whales are the people with a YUGE disposable income. $100 (and sometimes even $1000) is pocket change for them. You really should not worry of them being "exploited" - you should let the rich eat the rich, right?

Whenever someone brings sob stories of "gambling problem" - I know for a fact that it's at the very least an emotional argument (and therefore irrelevant - a.k.a. no argument) - and at worst manipulation tactic (evil).

You are not a knight in shining armor charging to protect the weak. That's at best just virtue signaling, at worst - narcissism.

[Vorkreist]

Ah yes, whenever a particular place bans something, it must be necessarily evil without question.

That's some good logic.

Its quite obvious and common sense in this case. Other countries being slow about doesn't change it from being predatory customer abuse.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

My favorite defense for these terribly monetization practices is "other mobile games do it" or "this is nothing new in the mobile field" types of comments. Yeah no shit.. the whole landscape is shit. Instead of taking that shit landscape and trying to make it something better they just jumped into the pool to sling shit around on everyone they can for a buck. Don't try to come back at me with they are a business blah blah crap. I would have no problem with them charging for the game. I would have no problem with them having a shop where you directly pay for something and receive it (no gamble or "more opportunity to gamble items"). I would have no problem with them having "battle/season pass" type things to make the game more "as it should be" from the pure free to play model. But what they created was a slot machine that you just slide the credit card in and pull the lever over and over again and the SICKEST part of it is the game is actually a pretty solid diablo experience with a real MMO feeling on the cell phone. But because they wanted a slot machine instead of a great game it will go down as a piece of fucking trash. Very sadly. I look forward to in a few years when someone rips the game, makes a private realm, adjusts things without a pay model in mind, and people can experience this game for the decent game it is (for a phone game) instead of a mask for a credit card reader and lever to pull for the slots.

[Vorkreist]

That's just your personal opinion that you inflated into a first world problem.

And there's a lot of misconceptions in how you see it, no one specifically targets people who can be easily exploited like that - that's some villain stuff from fiction. Also such people are a minority. And even without f2p games that "exploit" them - they still have the gambling problem and spend money on it somewhere else. And if you suggest regulating everything to protect them - I'm AGAINST that. This is the point you seem to miss. Government involvement/regulations is bad 99% of the time. Especially under a pretense of helping a minority.

The target audience for f2p games is split into groups by the paying capability of the targeted market. They have the big data, they know average disposable incomes, so they can project revenue from people who are willing to pay. No one even factors in gambling addiction. Not even Chinese companies. They don't need to be that evil. But they do employ different strategies and flexible offers depending on the group you are - if they know what group you are. Very quickly they distinguish those who pays and those who doesn't. Once you pay even the smallest amount - you are in the group of spenders, and subject to different sales scenario.

This is no different from ANY KIND OF SALES in all other industries. Singling out games is silly. Banning sales across the board even sillier.

The most revenue comes from whales anyway (and ads) - and contrary to your opinion - whales are not poor exploited people with gambling addiction. Whales are the people with a YUGE disposable income. $100 (and sometimes even $1000) is pocket change for them. You really should not worry of them being "exploited" - you should let the rich eat the rich, right?

Whenever someone brings sob stories of "gambling problem" - I know for a fact that it's at the very least an emotional argument (and therefore irrelevant - a.k.a. no argument) - and at worst manipulation tactic (evil).

You are not a knight in shining armor charging to protect the weak. That's at best just virtue signaling, at worst - narcissism.

"Bro let me advertise and sell some crack to kids since it would happen anyway somewhere else" your argument in a nutshell. You are wrong on all front and details but most importantly your weird idea of being VERY against regulation as if there is anything worthwhile to save. You can't bring up any argument to why it shouldn't be generally banned expect maybe if you are heartbroken at the thought of fat wallet whales missing on some cash shredding opportunities.
If you want crack gambling money shredding stuff go to the proper place. A fucking casino. Don't literally ruin such a massively popular activity like gaming because you want crack gambling cancer where it doesn't belong.
Looking at my favorite games franchises turned to rotten shit and voicing out how terrible it is for you somehow is virtue signaling.

[Elim Garak]

"Bro let me advertise and sell some crack to kids since it would happen anyway somewhere else"

Ah, the good old "what about the children" argument.

[Biomega]

There's a reason gambling is regulated, even in the good ol' U-S-muhfreeduumm-of-A.

Whether or not loot boxes ARE gambling is an ongoing debate, but to say we don't need to regulate gambling would be a bit of a stretch. As is "99% of government regulation is bad" which is just some grossly exaggerated socialist-zombies-are-coming-to-eat-my-guns kind of rhetoric. Government regulation can be good or it can be bad, but that's a case-by-case basis requiring deliberation. Broad strokes and facile slogans won't cut it.

[Reinaerd]

Mobile games, and mobile game adds and practices are aimed at the lowest common denominator.
It's the sort of stupid that you can milk, and then have the whales actively defend what you do to them.

[Fitsu]

That's just your personal opinion that you inflated into a first world problem.

And there's a lot of misconceptions in how you see it, no one specifically targets people who can be easily exploited like that - that's some villain stuff from fiction. Also such people are a minority. And even without f2p games that "exploit" them - they still have the gambling problem and spend money on it somewhere else. And if you suggest regulating everything to protect them - I'm AGAINST that. This is the point you seem to miss. Government involvement/regulations is bad 99% of the time. Especially under a pretense of helping a minority.

The target audience for f2p games is split into groups by the paying capability of the targeted market. They have the big data, they know average disposable incomes, so they can project revenue from people who are willing to pay. No one even factors in gambling addiction. Not even Chinese companies. They don't need to be that evil. But they do employ different strategies and flexible offers depending on the group you are - if they know what group you are. Very quickly they distinguish those who pays and those who doesn't. Once you pay even the smallest amount - you are in the group of spenders, and subject to different sales scenario.

This is no different from ANY KIND OF SALES in all other industries. Singling out games is silly. Banning sales across the board even sillier.

The most revenue comes from whales anyway (and ads) - and contrary to your opinion - whales are not poor exploited people with gambling addiction. Whales are the people with a YUGE disposable income. $100 (and sometimes even $1000) is pocket change for them. You really should not worry of them being "exploited" - you should let the rich eat the rich, right?

Whenever someone brings sob stories of "gambling problem" - I know for a fact that it's at the very least an emotional argument (and therefore irrelevant - a.k.a. no argument) - and at worst manipulation tactic (evil).

You are not a knight in shining armor charging to protect the weak. That's at best just virtue signaling, at worst - narcissism.

I don't think there using sales tactics, they are using sales tactics like they are right there in the game. I don't think there's mechanics there that are designed around the in-game shop because again they are right there. You think they have multiple forms of currency for fun? You think they have multiple rift tokens with increasing rewards for fun? You think the whole RNG based legendary gem/upgrade system etc. is there for fun? To say this is an opinion is to say that this is how the game would be if the in-game shop didn't exist which is just false and I feel we both know that. I guess you can't literally call it a "fact" but be real, like defend these mechanics for me then and why they are there if not for this reason. Don't just tell me I am wrong, tell me why I am wrong and if you can't maybe question why that is.

You can't claim to know where the majority of the income comes from anymore than I can. Although one would argue if these predatory sales tactics weren't the main source of income why put them in the game? Like you say, they are the ones with the data not us and with that data these are the decisions they make. One would think if the main revenue came from whales/ads and not those that are being exploited... Why put the exploitative stuff in the game?

I also think that to consider someone a "knight in shining armour" just for not wanting people to be exploited is like bro, come on. Is that how low we've come? That common decency is viewed as virtuous. Also, to think that companies don't target people they can exploit, and you say I am the one who lives in fiction? The world is built on the rich exploiting the less fortunate.

You are right about one thing though, almost every company does this. Most companies don't care about how or why they make money all they care about is making as much money as possible. I guess it's because games were once my escape from the cruelities of reality that to see my favourite media turned into, to see my favourite game series and company turn into this dissapoints me more.

[Asrialol]

Are people expecting to play this for hours every day and not being forced to pay? It's a mobile game. Play a few minutes now and then, an hour maybe. It's what most people who play on mobile do.

For a free game, you have a lot of stuff you can do. You don't have to pay at all. Most people don't care about maxing out their character.

I really don't get why people are upset about the p2w aspect. It's not news, we've known it would be for 4 years. What.

[everydaygamer]

I also think that to consider someone a "knight in shining armour" just for not wanting people to be exploited is like bro, come on. Is that how low we've come? That common decency is viewed as virtuous. Also, to think that companies don't target people they can exploit, and you say I am the one who lives in fiction? The world is built on the rich exploiting the less fortunate.

I think the issue is that you're just assuming people are being exploited. You claim the problem exists even though there isn't any indication that there is a problem. I mean yeah we hear about kids spending thousands on their parent's credit cards but that's more on the parents than anything else.

[Biomega]

I really don't get why people are upset about the p2w aspect. It's not news, we've known it would be for 4 years. What.

I think what people are upset about most isn't that DI is a p2w mobile game - that is as you say exactly what they said it would be.

If that was all, we could just go with "if you don't like it don't play it, it's not going to come into your room and night and force you to play" and be done with it.

But people don't like the implication that this mobile cash-grab game took development away from a "real" Diablo game. It's not as much about the existence of p2w mobile games as it is about companies investing time and money into making said games rather than investing that time and money making other games.

How much of that is true and actually reflective of the development process is difficult to tell. Just because money was invested into one product doesn't mean that money would have or could have gone to a different product - after all, they might have invested that money only BECAUSE it was for a cash-grabby game promising good returns on that investment. On a different game with less monetization they might not even have made that investment at all.

And of course this was largely outsourced anyway, so rather than taking away Blizzard resources from a "real" Diablo game this probably ate up more resources at a company that would have made a mobile game regardless.

The only real fear that does remain is that if consumers are willing to accept predatory business model (and what degree of predatoriness we're talking here is a separate debate) then companies in the future will be more incentivized to develop such games; whereas if consumers summarily reject that kind of business model, we're more likely to get other games instead. That's a real choice you can make, and I encourage anyone who wants to make a stand in that respect to just not play DI - at the end of the day, not buying into their product is the only message that will be unequivocally heard.

[Elim Garak]

I don't think there using sales tactics, they are using sales tactics like they are right there in the game. I don't think there's mechanics there that are designed around the in-game shop because again they are right there. You think they have multiple forms of currency for fun? You think they have multiple rift tokens with increasing rewards for fun? You think the whole RNG based legendary gem/upgrade system etc. is there for fun? To say this is an opinion is to say that this is how the game would be if the in-game shop didn't exist which is just false and I feel we both know that. I guess you can't literally call it a "fact" but be real, like defend these mechanics for me then and why they are there if not for this reason. Don't just tell me I am wrong, tell me why I am wrong and if you can't maybe question why that is.

The opinion was that the above is a PROBLEM. It's not.
It's in line with the logic behind bears not dropping their asses every time you kill one in WoW for a quest that asks you to collect 10 bear asses. I'm sorry 10 pristine bear asses, so it makes sense that not every bear has a pristine ass.

You are literally claiming that design decisions that affect the pacing of the player progression are a problem. While they are necessary. Whether you like them or not - is again your opinion.

You can't claim to know where the majority of the income comes from anymore than I can.

Of course I can. Just because you don't know doesn't mean it's a secret knowledge. You do know what a whale is, after all. People don't use that term lightly. It exactly means the big spender, and most revenue comes from whales (and ads). It's like a known fact since at least 2015.

Although one would argue if these predatory sales tactics weren't the main source of income why put them in the game?

Just because you call them predatory - doesn't make them predatory - again - it's just your opinion.