1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Stop moving the goal posts. No one said that it can't be discussed. It was about specific claims you, and others, were making that were not true.
    What goal post? Cant one discuss DI without looking at the bigger picture? Or is the issue here that everyone that dislikes this practice also must bring up every company & game that has ever been made that also is predatory and p2w? Is that it? Since I didnt mention others, my points are not valid?

    Everyone knows these predatory practices aint new. Everyone knows Blizzard has done it in other games too, even to a certain extend in wow. Everyone knoiws this wont be the last game either of this style.

    So whats the deal here? Is your argument that if we talk about it, one gotta first rinse up every p2w game there is in order to speak?

    Or is it because since someone else has already done this practice(or worse), theres no reason to talk about DI?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    Pretty sure a culture will develop in this game where the P2W people are outcast. Like look at this guy’s gems, oh he’s P2w so it doesn’t count and no one cares.
    Id bet on the opposite. Either pay up or step aside.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Cant afford to pay up front, but will pay hundreds of dollars to casino roll for a 2D jpeg in Grand Line or Fate GO? How does that make any sense?

    Regarding streamers whaling, it does shine a light on the issue. Asmon did a fully pumped 10 legendary crest run he bought with money and then a F2P no crest run. The p2W run had 10 legendaries drop... the f2p run had a single blue item drop.. it is good to be able to show people the glaring difference in game play. However some of these streamers are clearly just doing it for farming stream content and more reddit posts on LSF to argue with.
    Then the game is working as intended. By showing his viewers this, i'd bet many of them went on and spendt some money on the game for a couple of legendaries.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Cant afford to pay up front, but will pay hundreds of dollars to casino roll for a 2D jpeg in Grand Line or Fate GO? How does that make any sense?
    Really, every potential customer in China and other less well developed nations is doing that, all billions of them?

    Regarding streamers whaling, it does shine a light on the issue. Asmon did a fully pumped 10 legendary crest run he bought with money and then a F2P no crest run. The p2W run had 10 legendaries drop... the f2p run had a single blue item drop.. it is good to be able to show people the glaring difference in game play. However some of these streamers are clearly just doing it for farming stream content and more reddit posts on LSF to argue with.
    I've really never cared much how other people play games, whether it's using cheats or mods to make the game easier or just the options built into the game. At least with "freemium" games people are paying for an easier life which means I get the game for free.

  3. #603
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Funnyhow so many people are more than willing to excuse absolutely terrible and predatory practices by corporations, as if this won't escalate any further.

    The more you tolerate asinine behavior, the further it will escalate.
    'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn

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  4. #604
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    Funnyhow so many people are more than willing to excuse absolutely terrible and predatory practices by corporations, as if this won't escalate any further.

    The more you tolerate asinine behavior, the further it will escalate.
    Do you want fries with that? We are having a special. Also free refills if you buy super large.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  5. #605
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    Ah yes, the "You don't agree with my take, so you must clearly be a Blizzard plant" arguement. It's an effort in futility to both argue it, and argue against it.

    You can't justifiably prove that they are a plant, and they can't change your mind otherwise, because to do so would undermine your arguement.

    Why is it people always do this kind of behavior? Do you realise that people can, will, and do have different thoughts and opinions on the same subject matter as you?
    They're making light of it because the people trying to be Blizzard apologists for Diablo Immortal's monetization are making astoundingly stupid arguments, and this vacuous "everyone has an opinion so stop being flippant" mentality which you appear to have isn't even really worth addressing outside of mockery. Everyone is free to have an opinion, but if your opinion is stupid, you're obviously going to get blowback. Predatory monetization like lootboxes has a history of disproportionately affecting people with gambling addictions or IGD, as well as a history of using algorithmically determined drops (i.e.: increasing or decreasing drop rates by trying to maximize money from users) in some games, these companies also disingenuously reporting the value of items on the shop, and will run faux sales in the store (i.e.: limited time offers, cutting the price of items when the "discount" price is the actual price, etc.), alongside a myriad of other problems. There are two sides in the lootbox predatory monetization debate: (1) those who are against predatory monetization; and (2) people who don't know what they're talking about.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2022-06-06 at 03:00 PM.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  6. #606
    its amazing how quickly the subverted useful id1ots are jumping to defend this predatory and scam like type of "free" game business models thats directly counter productive to the quality of the game itself and its gameplay. they really succeeded in the propaganda and indoctrination that f2p is a good ethical and decent business model instead of borderline scam and fraud.

  7. #607
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    There are two sides in the lootbox debate: (1) those who are against predatory monetization; and (2) people who don't know what they're talking about.
    That's racist, sexist and transphobic. Binarity is out of fashion and everything is on the spectrum, including fake dichotomies.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    They're making light of it because the people trying to be Blizzard apologists for Diablo Immortal's monetization are making astoundingly stupid arguments, and this vacuous "everyone has an opinion so stop being flippant" mentality which you appear to have isn't even really worth addressing outside of mockery. Everyone is free to have an opinion, but if your opinion is stupid, you're obviously going to get blowback. Predatory monetization like lootboxes has a history of disproportionately affecting people with gambling addictions or IGD, as well as a history of using algorithmically determined drops (i.e.: increasing or decreasing drop rates by trying to maximize money from users) in some games, these companies also disingenuously reporting the value of items on the shop, and will run faux sales in the store (i.e.: limited time offers, cutting the price of items when the "discount" price is the actual price, etc.), alongside a myriad of other problems. There are two sides in the lootbox debate: (1) those who are against predatory monetization; and (2) people who don't know what they're talking about.
    Again though. The psychological mechanism that triggers addictive behaviour in people susceptible to such behaviour when it comes to lootboxes is entirely dependent on the instantaneous gratification afforded by lootboxes. Games that use lootboxes will also often offer a few lootboxes for free to get people hooked.
    Diablo Immortal does not feature lootboxes. It is very heavily P2W (really, there is not going to be any natural competition in PvP or PvE leaderboards; significant chunks of power can be bought. It does feature elements that amount to gambling (namely Crests) but not in a way that triggers the response that lootboxes do. It is also not that persistent about the shop. While leveling you will get a small number of popups about bundles becoming available but those pop ups are not intrusive, at least not in the PC screen. The game does not constantly direct you to the shop like other games do. You can still complete almost every activity in the game without paying a bit (and yeah I even did several BGs; there were people who probably spend money in the game but I think I encountered only one whale who really felt overpowered).

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Obviously. More views, more money for him. I guarantee you he didn't lose any money paying to win. In fact he probably made bank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Yeah, it's a business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Yeah, and they are not LOSING ANY MONEY DOING IT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    The Youtuber business model is not a secret.
    Yes... i've just presented that conclusion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I don't even know who he is. And I don't need to.
    That explains everything why you don't why he did that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Haha. It's ironic how Blizzard is slammed for doing anything for money. But a youtuber doing the same thing is a trusted individual.
    ... and this confirms that even further.

    I don't see the reason to continue arguing with you imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Not really two birds in one stone then. Because it supports the model.
    One or two streamers won't change much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    In fact I would argue streamers doing this over and over and over again is why it becomes more and more egregious. Players watching them and donating then to spend money on this helps as well.
    When i see how stupidly bad P2W is in this game watching his stream or videos... it makes me even more to not touch this game at all.
    I've no idea why it would make me otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If you want this model to be gone, you only have to ignore the shop and also ignore streamers who try to profit over buying shit from the store.
    I won't play this or any other mobile game.
    My friends will not too.
    ... but sadly there is enough 'clueless mobile gamers' that are willing to pay thousands of dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Buying from it to prove that it's bad is like you buying an overpriced house to prove its overpriced. You just bought it, so clearly it's not the wrong price.
    You can't compare imaginary things in game with anything irl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Clearly the store isn't bad, since he paid for it. I don't think developers care if people pay to prove a point, only that they pay.
    Again - he bought it for stream content and to show others how bad it is.
    He is happy to get more viewers and money back.
    Viewers can see the stupid level of P2W in this game.
    That is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I have to point out though... the quality of armors and the high detail on it is crazy for being a mobile game. It's much better than D3.
    I agree.
    Art style in general is gorgeus in this game.
    Even gameplay looks really smooth and 'diabloish'.
    So sad that anything else is horrible greedy dogshit.

  10. #610
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    Yes... i've just presented that conclusion...

    That explains everything why you don't why he did that....
    Why are you defending a streamer who uses predatory techniques to skim his audience?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Why are you defending a streamer who uses predatory techniques to skim his audience?
    I do not defend anyone.
    It is his stream and he can do whatever he wants with his time, audience or money.
    He used his own $$ to show how stupidly bad P2W this game is and you or me can't do anything with it.
    You instead taking any notes from his example (as not many people are able to use that amount of personal money) and avoid this game rather change subject and say i am defending him and his making money toally ignoring the true reason of this topic.

    My last response to you (yes - i said that eralier too).
    Peace.

  12. #612
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    I do not defend anyone.
    It is his stream and he can do whatever he wants with his time, audience or money.
    He used his own $$ to show how stupidly bad P2W this game is and you or me can't do anything with it.
    You instead taking any notes from his example (as not many people are able to use that amount of personal money) and avoid this game rather change subject and say i am defending him and his making money toally ignoring the true reason of this topic.

    My last response to you (yes - i said that eralier too).
    Peace.
    So Blizzard owns DI, it's their game and they can do whatever they want with their time, players or money.
    Any money Blizzard gets from players - is Blizzard's money.
    They use their games to show how stupidly bad free players are, and you or me can't do anything with it.
    I'm taking notes from Blizzard's example.

    My post-your-last response to you
    The fuck out.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    Streamer Quin69 tried PvP yesterday after spending +3k NZD on his character... and went as expected totally obliterating everyone without being killed.
    Yeah... imagine being F2P player and trying to climb in PvP ladder, LOL.
    That is good news. It means only the streamers spent $3000.
    Other people spent less than $3000.

    I am done with this game.
    Diablo is famous for grinding.
    As a gacha game, Diablo Immortal is even worse.
    You are wasting time by playing it.

    As for the hate for gacha games, most people have to learn the hard way.
    Once in awhile, YuGiOh Duel Links has this $1 10% chance for a legendary card.
    (Normally this legendary card costs $200)
    Eventually, people will learn that these $1 lottery tickets are wasting money.
    Last edited by xenogear3; 2022-06-06 at 11:20 AM.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    That is good news. It means only the streamers spent $3000.
    Other people spent less than $3000.
    Well... i did not think about that.
    Yeah - you can probably say that this is a good thing as it shows that others paid much less (or hopefully even nothing).

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    Well... i did not think about that.
    Yeah - you can probably say that this is a good thing as it shows that others paid much less (or hopefully even nothing).
    I've run multiple BGs and I've found only one person who clearly sunk money on this. And I still think we'd have had a chance if we were defense.

  16. #616
    I love reading some of the posts here and the arguments people are getting into over this game

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    I agree.
    Art style in general is gorgeus in this game.
    Even gameplay looks really smooth and 'diabloish'.
    So sad that anything else is horrible greedy dogshit.
    Gameplay is really fun, I think for this particular type of game a touchscreen might be superior to controller and mouse+keyboard. Shame you're missing out because a streamer advertised features you can happily ignore.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I've run multiple BGs and I've found only one person who clearly sunk money on this. And I still think we'd have had a chance if we were defense.
    Well... maybe he invested 'only' a few hundrers instead thousands?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Gameplay is really fun, I think for this particular type of game a touchscreen might be superior to controller and mouse+keyboard. Shame you're missing out because a streamer advertised features you can happily ignore.
    Oh... 'streamer told you X so you did it' argument... i see...
    Why would i ignore anything?
    Why do you imply i do not care about X feature?
    I'd love to be competitive in this game with fair rules for everyone as i was in first few D3 seasons and many years earlier D2.
    I've played probably a few thousands hours of all previous Diablo games (even weird D1 versions on PS1 and gameboy) past 25 years and thanks for other people i know it is not worth even starting when random dude that 'invested' thousand of $$ will be better than me.
    Last edited by Mendzia; 2022-06-06 at 11:56 AM.

  19. #619
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Diablo: Immoral

    I actually had a naive hope that no matter how bad and desperate Blizzard would get, they wouldn't stoop down to the kind of predatory monetization like you see in AIDS: Shallow Microtransactions or <insert-South-Korean-gacha-here>. Like that was a level so low that Blizzard would never taint their IP's with.
    But at the same time, I guess I'm not surprised. We all know that the Blizzard we loved way back is long dead, but this was like watching the cold dead husk bury itself using its own shovel.

    I don't know when exactly Blizzard died, but for years now we've only been haunted by it's memory.
    And yet you keep throwing money at it. And some of you keep defending this disgusting monetization with useless arguments like "you don't have to pay for the ingame bundles/offers".
    And then when it gets even worse, you double down on the arguments that allowed the devs to make it even worse.

    How far they have fallen. Sad to see.
    And if you still defend Blizzard at this point you are a simp with no principles. YOU show devs that things like this works. That people who fight against shit like this won't stop the money-flow.


    Goddamn, how I miss TotalBiscuit right now. He would completely flip his shit if he saw what Blizzard has turned into.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2022-06-06 at 12:38 PM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Diablo: Immoral

    I actually had a naive hope that no matter how bad and desperate Blizzard would get, they wouldn't stoop down to the kind of predatory monetization like you see in AIDS: Shallow Microtransactions or <insert-South-Korean-gacha-here>. Like that was a level so low that Blizzard would never taint their IP's with.
    But at the same time, I guess I'm not surprised. We all know that the Blizzard we loved way back is long dead, but this was like watching the cold dead husk bury itself using its own shovel.

    I don't know when exactly Blizzard died, but for years now we've only been haunted by it's memory.
    And yet you keep throwing money at it. And some of you keep defending this disgusting monetization with useless arguments like "you don't have to pay for the ingame bundles/offers".
    And then when it gets even worse, you double down on the arguments that allowed the devs to make it even worse.

    How far they have fallen. Sad to see.
    And if you still defend Blizzard at this point you are a simp with no principles. YOU show devs that things like this works. That people who fight against shit like this won't stop the money-flow.


    Goddamn, how I miss TotalBiscuit right now. He would completely flip his shit if he saw what Blizzard has turned into.
    People are having fun with the game, so what's the problem?

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