1. #861
    Stood in the Fire Chromeshellking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    You can spend 10 years grinding a character or one month and six figures to reach the same point. (If we ignore all the mechanics which are paid-only)

    I explained the logic to you, if you want to be deliberately obtuse that's on you. You can argue it isn't AS skewed, then we get into subjective values and what I think is a fair amount versus what you think. But to deny it's skewed at all? Come on.



    "Then don't buy them, play the game for free or move on", at least you won't be slower in progression, kicked from a clan, or weaker in PvP because you don't own a skin.


    P.S. Believe it or not, we're not all flat out anti-blizzard. I was okay with Overwatch and Heroes of the Storms monetization. I would even argue HoTs was a better game for its genre than LoL.
    I've seen him do exactly that in past, blazes right past your point to pick the grain of sand that was cut just at different angle so clearly you must be wrong. Never minding the radioactive mole hill he just sits on.

    In the end its either spending months to years or as said spend the money. Either way I walked away from activizard long long ago and havent looked back.
    Fate is one you forge with your own two hands.

  2. #862
    I want to find a discount code for mmo-Champion. Is there any discount code here?

  3. #863
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    You can spend 10 years grinding a character or one month and six figures to reach the same point. (If we ignore all the mechanics which are paid-only) I explained the logic to you, if you want to be deliberately obtuse that's on you. You can argue it isn't AS skewed, then we get into subjective values and what I think is a fair amount versus what you think. But to deny it's skewed at all? Come on.
    That isn't logic but a fact. I haven't disputed that you can grind or buy. The entire point of playing a ARPG is to grind for upgrades. It doesn't matter how long it takes. For example there people still trying to get mounts to drop after 12+ years in WoW. Grinding and upgrades take time is a standard feature of the genre and it is silly to suddenly make that out to be a bad thing just because you can also pay to speed it up.


    "Then don't buy them, play the game for free or move on", at least you won't be slower in progression, kicked from a clan, or weaker in PvP because you don't own a skin.
    Fear mongering. Could it happen? Sure. But it is more likely that you won't be kicked from a clan, you won't be that much weaker in PvP (brackets exist so match making might take those into account) and you won't have drastically slower progression. You act as if Legendary gems are the only method to gain power in Diablo Immortal. They are not. You can also get more then 3 per month because you can earn runes from elder rifts that allow you to craft legendary gems.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then shouldn't you be spending it on something worthwhile rather then discussing a terrible game? It is almost as if people can enjoy different things and have decided to spend their time on something they enjoy. Just because you also wouldn't enjoy it doesn't mean they are wrong for deciding to spend their time on that thing.

    If all of Blizzards games are full of addicts and whales then so be it. Why is that a concern of you? Move on.
    It's a concern for me because the vast majority of it is bad for humanity and sets a bad precedent for the industry, which I don't want to see get worse.

    They are wrong for spending their time on it.

    The reason being there are tons of things any of these people playing would objectively enjoy more or be more fulfilling for them than this shitty game.

    And the reason they don't do them is 1) because the company is manipulating and exploiting them 2) laziness and inconvenience 3) fear


    I won't interfere with them if they choose to waste their time on something stupid, it's their life and I do stupid shit to (like spend time on this shitty forum when I watch tv shows)

    But I will speak out about it and low lives, like you seem to be, won't stop me.

  5. #865
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    I'll be honest, I never tried PvP before I uninstalled. But with the barest amount of research, that proved to be a big lie. https://youtu.be/Zdz4JOAR8pE
    That doesn't prove anything because the person was also Paragon 8 and none of their other stats were inspected on video. Only the legendary gem ranks. There are more then just those that go into power of a character so you didn't prove anything to be a lie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chromeshellking View Post
    In the end its either spending months to years or as said spend the money. Either way I walked away from activizard long long ago and havent looked back.
    Again, what is wrong with that? Why is it bad that it might take you months to years to get best in slot? Isn't the whole point of this genre, ARPG, to grind out gear upgrades? There were people still playing Diablo 2 before the remaster so it is clear that even in a game with no official pay to win it will retain people that want to play for years.

    Could it be better with out pay to win or with lower costs? Certainly. Is it that big of a deal that it takes a while to get max stuff while free? Not at all. But it is easier to attack my posting habits then make any compelling argument, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    It's a concern for me because the vast majority of it is bad for humanity and sets a bad precedent for the industry, which I don't want to see get worse.
    It doesn't set any precedent because this isn't the first time it has happened in the industry. Lmao. Stop being concerned with what is bad for humanity and start focusing on what is good for yourself. You don't know what others would objectively enjoy more because you are not them.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That isn't logic but a fact. I haven't disputed that you can grind or buy. The entire point of playing a ARPG is to grind for upgrades. It doesn't matter how long it takes. For example there people still trying to get mounts to drop after 12+ years in WoW. Grinding and upgrades take time is a standard feature of the genre and it is silly to suddenly make that out to be a bad thing just because you can also pay to speed it up.
    The logic behind why a grind that was doable in a few months in another version of Diablo and why it now takes several years. And on balance because the game hasn't been out for 10 years, but you can reach that level of progression with money. And it clearly has an impact on PvP: https://youtu.be/Zdz4JOAR8pE

    Mounts weren't the primary point of WoW and didn't you an advantage in any part of the game. But guess what, if tomorrow Blizzard added Mimiron's head, Invincibles reigns, or the Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal to the cash store, people would lose their minds, and rightfully so. Because it devalues the time they already put into the game and makes those accomplishments meaningless. Your comparison makes no sense.
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  7. #867
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Your comparison makes no sense.
    So people can only enjoy farming things for years when it isn't a primary focus of the game? Or is it just because you say so? Isn't it strange how in once instance you say grinding for years is bad yet in the other say it is perfectly fine? Blizzard has also devalued things like TCG loot cards by adding them to the game or tying them to promotions. A few did complain but the vast majority didn't care.

    Also it doesn't matter how quickly a grind was done in another version of Diablo. They are different games. But there are still people that were playing and grinding for things in Diablo 2 after decades so your are not even making the point you think you are.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #868
    I'm Paragon 5 and can confidently say that this game is trash tier. In Hell I, you are unable to do dungeons solo anymore and you're required to join groups. It's an abrupt and sudden change. You can't even do hidden lairs anymore by yourself. It gets worse at later difficulties when you're required to have 4 players - and there aren't even a whole lot of people to play with at that level and if you do find someone, one person will leave after 1-2 runs. The game just gates you for player numbers for no reason at all. We should be able to do Hell dungeons alone as usual.

    As for the P2W, it definitely ruins PvP. The Battleground mode is actually fun - the issue is when whales run around 21-0 it kind of ruins the fun. And the top of the ladder gets to be Immortal. You get the picture, it's simply unenjoyable.

    Lastly, the gacha is atrocious. I'm a gacha gamer, I play plenty of them, but this whole concept of a 5-star gem and a 5-star 5-star gem is absurd. When you hit 50 legendary crests you trigger a pity to recieve a 5-star gem, the issue is you're 75% of the time going to get a 2-star 5-star gem instead of you know... anything useful. Higher star gems grant way more resonance and combat rating which boost you so much. That's the whole point of trying to get these gems.

    A minor annoyance is the dynamic scaling. As you gear up, it's hard to notice any difference in clearspeeds etc as the enemies scale with you. The biggest way to notice a damage increase is of course to... spend money and get resonance. That's it.

    This entire game is designed to screw you over and make you want to spend. It's such a shame because the base game is actually fun. I spent 500 bucks and would've spent so much more if the model wasn't so bad, I'll just take my money somewhere else instead.

    I'll keep playing until the game gets boring.

  9. #869
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    This entire game is designed to screw you over and make you want to spend. It's such a shame because the base game is actually fun. I spent 500 bucks and would've spent so much more if the model wasn't so bad, I'll just take my money somewhere else instead.
    Doesn't this just show that it isn't the game being designed to make you want to spend but that you don't like the costs of the game? And if the costs were lower it would still be designed to make you want to spend and screw over those that don't equally spend?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  10. #870
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerot View Post
    Mounts weren't the primary point of WoW and didn't you an advantage in any part of the game. But guess what, if tomorrow Blizzard added Mimiron's head, Invincibles reigns, or the Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal to the cash store, people would lose their minds, and rightfully so. Because it devalues the time they already put into the game and makes those accomplishments meaningless. Your comparison makes no sense.
    I'm sure there will be idiots crying about that, but your argument is silly.
    Nothing is devalued. Because when you get a rare drop - that's the value. And you have it. It's in your memory. Someone else getting the same lucky drop - doesn't devalue your accomplishment. So if Blizzard decides to sell it directly - it doesn't devalue anything. That's just histrionics on your part.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is irrelelvant. It shows that Blizzard/Netease has not given favor to those who pay their way. They reduce their power in the name of balance. There is no indication that they made things harder to acquire in order to create value. Besides from the amount of people whining about it that are not even interested in playing the game it shows they have inherent value of their own, right? Otherwise you wouldn't have devoted so much time over something that has no value, right?

    If neither works when you want to sell power to give the paying player an advantage then they wouldn't have the Strife debuff that scales better geared players down, right? You defeat your entire post with that one statement.
    .....

    what?

    lmao.
    You do realize that whenever you die in this game, they tell you to "get gud" and get better gear, right?
    It's not a friendly reminder on how to improve. It's meant to lure you into the shop.

    It's literally telling you to spend money, so you can be as awesome as the guy that just killed you in PvP.
    And do you actually know what the pvp-scalings does? It's not setting your combat rating to equal levels.

    Lets not pretend that this game doesn't incentivize players to spend money, please.
    You can be fine with it for all I care... but they aren't trying to sell you the product by making the product itself good or enjoyable.
    They try to sell you the product by making you feel miserable and then they tell you: "you need this worthless thing we just made up to be happy again"
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-07 at 05:37 AM.

  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    That's the thing I don't think people grasp.

    It's f2p, buy it's not really free, you're giving it your time, which you have a finite amount of.

    Go spend it doing something worthwhile. If you want to spend it playing a game, there is TONS of good game options right now or better yet go develop a skill or learn something.

    Don't spend it on this manipulative and shitty game, soon to be full of just shitty addicts and whales still playing it, that makes shitty people at a shitty company rich and sets a terrible precedent for the future of gaming.
    You may not like the mtx model, but the game itself is far from being shitty. It’s a mobile version of Diablo and it’s pretty fun to play if you like the genre.

    99% of people complaining here have not even installed the game.

  13. #873
    I actually can't believe some people are shilling for the monetisation practices deployed in this game.

    It's not even a good value proposition. Other F2P games like POE have an excellent value proposition whereby the most you really need to buy longer term is stash tabs, and they are

    1. inexpensive
    2. completely deterministic

    From there I can enjoy the entirety of the game without needing to sink an annual salary to obtain the most power. If that is a reasonable value proposition to you then I don't know what you are doing on these forums. Go enjoy your yacht

    The value proposition for WoW is rather reasonable. I pay a box price for the xpac (which for the last 2 I have purchased with in-game gold) of $60 AUD or whatever, and a monthly sub price of $20 AUD or whatever. Considering I play about 4 hrs every day on average, that's very good entertainment value (cost of a movie for example is like $20 AUD or some shit these days for like a 2 hr session)

    For me the cost to play wow on a subscription basis is offset by the value I get out of it, and the opportunity cost of alternative entertainment options is far higher. The cost to play DI and expect to progress in character power in a meaningful way to me could exceed hundreds of dollars per session, and to obtain true end-game power would cost me the equivalent of a few months of work.

    Not only that, I would have to pay money in DI just to have the chance to progress my power. What an absolute scam. The worst part is that the game is good to play, it's just the absolutely disgusting nature of the monetisation that means I will probably never put more than a dozen hours into it as a F2P game because there is little value to get out of the money spent

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So people can only enjoy farming things for years when it isn't a primary focus of the game? Or is it just because you say so? Isn't it strange how in once instance you say grinding for years is bad yet in the other say it is perfectly fine? Blizzard has also devalued things like TCG loot cards by adding them to the game or tying them to promotions. A few did complain but the vast majority didn't care.
    You cannot be serious... That is what you took away from my argument? You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

    Funny you mention TCG loot, because I have a majority of the old UDE points rewards and scratch cards, and yeah I was a little upset when they got added as promotions for classic, but it was essentially a different game. There wasn't a way to acquire them anymore outside of paying ridiculous secondary market prices. It was legacy content.

    The card game they came from has been dead for years, you can't even redeem the UDE point cards anymore. So obviously the situation is very different. At least the tabards were pretty rare from the BMAH, and I don't think the original ogre disguise was ever added. But most importantly; The original source was buying them, you didn't grind to get a Spectral Tiger mount or Foam Sword Rack.

    WoW pushed cosmetic/mount grinds to sell subscriptions, which I always thought was an outdated model, but you couldn't pay to skip the grind.

    The only blizzard game I'm willing to give a pass on this is Hearthstone because it comes with the genre, I've played MTG for nearly 20 years and used to play/collect Pokemon and Yugioh too. Yes it has elements of gambling with packs, but what you get always has value to someone. Would I prefer if hearthstone was single-purchase or completely F2P with cosmetics? Of course, but I've accepted that TCGs and CCGs have a different model than most games. The exception was that you could earn cards by playing, not that you could pay to skip the grind of earning cards. Precedent and context matters.


    If you're going to ask for peoples time to play your game, respect it. Don't purposefully waste their time just to create a market for people who will pay to skip that grind. How hard is that to understand? Sell things that makes the experience of the paying player better without making the experience of the free player worse. Don't ruin the balance of a multiplayer game for the sake of easy profits.
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  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    I actually can't believe some people are shilling for the monetisation practices deployed in this game.

    It's not even a good value proposition. Other F2P games like POE have an excellent value proposition whereby the most you really need to buy longer term is stash tabs, and they are

    1. inexpensive
    2. completely deterministic

    From there I can enjoy the entirety of the game without needing to sink an annual salary to obtain the most power. If that is a reasonable value proposition to you then I don't know what you are doing on these forums. Go enjoy your yacht

    The value proposition for WoW is rather reasonable. I pay a box price for the xpac (which for the last 2 I have purchased with in-game gold) of $60 AUD or whatever, and a monthly sub price of $20 AUD or whatever. Considering I play about 4 hrs every day on average, that's very good entertainment value (cost of a movie for example is like $20 AUD or some shit these days for like a 2 hr session)

    For me the cost to play wow on a subscription basis is offset by the value I get out of it, and the opportunity cost of alternative entertainment options is far higher. The cost to play DI and expect to progress in character power in a meaningful way to me could exceed hundreds of dollars per session, and to obtain true end-game power would cost me the equivalent of a few months of work.

    Not only that, I would have to pay money in DI just to have the chance to progress my power. What an absolute scam. The worst part is that the game is good to play, it's just the absolutely disgusting nature of the monetization that means I will probably never put more than a dozen hours into it as a F2P game because there is little value to get out of the money spent
    Agreed.

    10/char

  16. #876
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's a concern because other companies will see it as an option for them to make money and will start doing this.

    If one company gets away with it, then others will follow suite. We won't have games without MTX because every game will eventually have MTX. Snip that shit in the bud before it has a chance to grow into anything. That's why people are complaining.
    Mobile gaming is much larger than PC gaming at this point. 2020 was something like $80 billion vs. $55 billion with mobile gaming in the lead. I don't know what you read and look at but if you imagine that Blizzard is the first to do this that's incorrect. If anything Blizzard is very late to the market.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  17. #877
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You do realize that whenever you die in this game, they tell you to "get gud" and get better gear, right?
    So it is bad to recommend ways to get better at a game? Notice how you can't buy gear that it tells you to get. That still doesn't change the fact that nothing about the games progression system is drastically changed from a standard ARPG. That means that it hasn't made things harder to acquire just to push you to the store. It is just that the normal mechanics of an ARPG naturally encourages people to want a short cut.

    They try to sell you the product by making you feel miserable and then they tell you: "you need this worthless thing we just made up to be happy again"
    Sounds like a personal issue. I've yet to feel miserable and have yet to spend a cent on the game. It is a fun hack and slash diversion. A diablo lite.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  18. #878
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I'm sure there will be idiots crying about that, but your argument is silly.
    Nothing is devalued. Because when you get a rare drop - that's the value. And you have it. It's in your memory. Someone else getting the same lucky drop - doesn't devalue your accomplishment. So if Blizzard decides to sell it directly - it doesn't devalue anything. That's just histrionics on your part.
    Your argument is just as nonsensical.

    Aside from aesthetics, part of why it's valuable is because its rare, and takes either a large amount of grinding or luck to acquire. That's why Mimiron's Head is seen as more desirable than a store bought mount. Putting it in the store makes it exponentially less rare or desirable. You see a player with something unique and it creates intrigue;
    "Wow, where did you get that!?!"
    "How long did you grind for that?"
    "You got it on the first kill, no way, so lucky!"
    "I've been grinding for 3 years and it finally dropped! Woo!"

    You see a player with a store bought mount and its "Oh, they spent $40.". It will never have the same appeal. Scarcity creates demand creates value, if you could print bitcoins infinitely on demand they would be worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That means that it hasn't made things harder to acquire just to push you to the store.
    Holy logical fallacies... nothing about what you've described even remotely proves that.

    I already gave you a direct example with the D3 gem comparison and you've hand-waved it away. Too inconvenient to explain.

    What a coincidence the one diablo where it takes 30x longer to max out a gem is also the only one where you can pay to skip that grind. Seems convenient that it also makes Blizzard money, but there is no way the two are related!

    And you completely dropped the PvP defense when I provided evidence. Seems like you don't really know what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Jerot; 2022-06-07 at 05:51 AM.
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  19. #879
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    It's not even a good value proposition.
    Being able to do pretty much everything for fee is an excellent value proposition. I say pretty much everything because it will be harder to be the top immortal or shadow with out the higher rank paragon, gear, and legendary gems. So obviously paying gives you that perk. It is still possible you could do it while free but just harder. And all of this for free.

    So if the value of WoW is reasonable beacuse a box price and a subscription and the time you can spend then doing the same thing for free has to be a better value. Yet you just got done saying the value is terrible with DI.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So it is bad to recommend ways to get better at a game? Notice how you can't buy gear that it tells you to get. That still doesn't change the fact that nothing about the games progression system is drastically changed from a standard ARPG. That means that it hasn't made things harder to acquire just to push you to the store. It is just that the normal mechanics of an ARPG naturally encourages people to want a short cut.
    Please stop and don't pretend to be an absolute idiot. You aren't fooling anyone.
    You know yourself that the only reason they tell you to "get legendary gems", "upgrade your gems" etc. is because you can pay money to do that. Especially just right after you have been defeated by another player.

    Do they do that in WoW when you die?
    They don't.
    Why not?


    Sounds like a personal issue. I've yet to feel miserable and have yet to spend a cent on the game. It is a fun hack and slash diversion. A diablo lite.
    It's not a personal issue at all. It's how they designed the game to be and that's just a fact, just because you aren't affected by it doesn't mean that's not how they purposely designed it. You are confusing your misbegotten ignorance with how they designed the system.

    It's like saying Facebook/Meta doesn't try to make money with your data just because they never point it out directly. Stop pretending to not know this, just so you can win an argument on the internet, lmao.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-06-07 at 05:52 AM.

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