1. #2381
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Which in theory sounds great till you realize there is 0 longevity because the end game is based around milking said whales.

    This is both a problem from the MTX but also from design of the game. Its very repetitive which will get stale anyway.

    Very few games can do "end game" well
    How you view a games longevity is subjective. Unrestricted grinds like D3 offers no real longevity for me as I will burn out or get bored and move on. A Limited daily/weekly grind like Genshin Impact has given me 15 months of near daily play because its most often 20-30 min for dailies. Progression still happens but you would need to view it in short session over months as opposed to long sessions over days.

    DI I view as LONG term progression. My paragon/charms/gems will upgrade slowly but I will still be playing months from now.

  2. #2382
    I don't even know what to do at max level... if I have crests I can do elder rifts I guess, other than that bounties + leveling paragon?

    Feels like end-game is lacking or at least direction. Oh well, had some fun with it at least but think that's it for me.
    Might be it's way to focused on either PvP or the Immortal vs Shadow Clan bullshit...

    Really hope D4 doesn't try and force group content and leave it as a choice.
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  3. #2383
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I don't even know what to do at max level... if I have crests I can do elder rifts I guess, other than that bounties + leveling paragon?

    Feels like end-game is lacking or at least direction. Oh well, had some fun with it at least but think that's it for me.
    Might be it's way to focused on either PvP or the Immortal vs Shadow Clan bullshit...

    Really hope D4 doesn't try and force group content and leave it as a choice.
    Yeah, I couldn't care less if there's a shop where I can spend money but forcing me to play with other people is really annoying.

  4. #2384
    Quote Originally Posted by Shigma View Post
    They said they already earned 20+ millions with DI. I also despise this kind of games, but it's obviously what people want. Money shows it, and thus they will keep doing it (It's no coincidence they waited for DI and see how much it made before showing how OW2 is being monetized too. And honestly, seeing the numbers, it tells most people are cool with this and its pretty profitable, i'll do the same in their place).
    I've seen this sentiment a lot and it just shows people don't have any idea how profitable mobile games are. 24 million is actually a significant underperformance. For comparison in the same time frame Diablo 3 with a full retail price barrier to entry made nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in the same time frame. Genshin impact made like 60 million in the same timeframe. 24 million is candy crush on a very bad day and this is the company that already owns candy crush and has those expectations.

    Lets not forget they are touting 10 million downloads while quietly brushing under the rug those 30 million download predictions they had a month before launch.

    For a person used to pc and console 10 million downloads and 24 million dollars seems like a monster success, but for a mobile game using a AAA IP thats almost certainly not meeting their expectations and underperforming.

    and now its delayed in china to implement anti addiction measures that more than once has lead to netease simply not releasing in china to spend the time and money on making another clone to milk whales worldwide and Diablo Immoral is probably doing way worse than Blizzard would want and in the longrun going to ramp down rather than up and in the grand scheme of things only made people more wary of Diablo 4 so its not nearly the end of all things and the age of the forevergachas.

  5. #2385
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrans View Post
    How you view a games longevity is subjective. Unrestricted grinds like D3 offers no real longevity for me as I will burn out or get bored and move on. A Limited daily/weekly grind like Genshin Impact has given me 15 months of near daily play because its most often 20-30 min for dailies. Progression still happens but you would need to view it in short session over months as opposed to long sessions over days.

    DI I view as LONG term progression. My paragon/charms/gems will upgrade slowly but I will still be playing months from now.
    This 100%.

    I can understand the frustration of people that wanna play competitive and dominate and not spending a penny because they can grind 24/7 but DI is not their type of game.

    Me too is happy to play 30 to 60 mins a day, not even all days and feeling “done” without thinking “oh boy if I could endlessly grind, my toon would be so much better”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I've seen this sentiment a lot and it just shows people don't have any idea how profitable mobile games are. 24 million is actually a significant underperformance. For comparison in the same time frame Diablo 3 with a full retail price barrier to entry made nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in the same time frame. Genshin impact made like 60 million in the same timeframe. 24 million is candy crush on a very bad day and this is the company that already owns candy crush and has those expectations.

    Lets not forget they are touting 10 million downloads while quietly brushing under the rug those 30 million download predictions they had a month before launch.

    For a person used to pc and console 10 million downloads and 24 million dollars seems like a monster success, but for a mobile game using a AAA IP thats almost certainly not meeting their expectations and underperforming.

    and now its delayed in china to implement anti addiction measures that more than once has lead to netease simply not releasing in china to spend the time and money on making another clone to milk whales worldwide and Diablo Immoral is probably doing way worse than Blizzard would want and in the longrun going to ramp down rather than up and in the grand scheme of things only made people more wary of Diablo 4 so its not nearly the end of all things and the age of the forevergachas.
    24 millions without the Chinese market is not THAT bad. How many of those 60 millions Genshin Impact came from China?

    Also Candy Crush type of game audience is a “little” wider than ANY ARPG audience.

  6. #2386
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I've seen this sentiment a lot and it just shows people don't have any idea how profitable mobile games are. 24 million is actually a significant underperformance. For comparison in the same time frame Diablo 3 with a full retail price barrier to entry made nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in the same time frame. Genshin impact made like 60 million in the same timeframe. 24 million is candy crush on a very bad day and this is the company that already owns candy crush and has those expectations.

    Lets not forget they are touting 10 million downloads while quietly brushing under the rug those 30 million download predictions they had a month before launch.

    For a person used to pc and console 10 million downloads and 24 million dollars seems like a monster success, but for a mobile game using a AAA IP thats almost certainly not meeting their expectations and underperforming.

    and now its delayed in china to implement anti addiction measures that more than once has lead to netease simply not releasing in china to spend the time and money on making another clone to milk whales worldwide and Diablo Immoral is probably doing way worse than Blizzard would want and in the longrun going to ramp down rather than up and in the grand scheme of things only made people more wary of Diablo 4 so its not nearly the end of all things and the age of the forevergachas.
    You are missing my point there. Thing is DI was hated eversince it was announced, it has a 0.2 on metacritic... yet it made that money. What i meant was it still made it thru the negative opinions.

    Even D3, which later became hated too, wasn't affected too much by this because at that point, sales were already sealed. Genshing impact wasn't hated as DI, and so on.

    People expected DI to fail miserably, and it's far from the truth. Maybe it's not the king of income, but it did pretty good given the circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Which in theory sounds great till you realize there is 0 longevity because the end game is based around milking said whales.

    This is both a problem from the MTX but also from design of the game. Its very repetitive which will get stale anyway.

    Very few games can do "end game" well

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    "IF its not for you just move on"

    "I Hope D4 isnt abused too"

    You can see the irony yea?
    What irony? It's quite simple. If D4 goes the same path, i will move on just as i did from DI. You're trying to be an asshole just for the sake of being.

    If D4 uses a similar scheme i don't feel like supporting, i won't. Simple. The same way i'm not playing DI. But this won't be a drama for me.

    DI =/= D4. Just in case. Different market, different platform, chances are they are monetization in D4 will be really different. You still will have to buy D4... at least for now, that's the plan. So i still believe D4 won't be affected by this... but things can change at any point.

    Also, i'm not sure if you understand what's irony at all... but whatever.
    Last edited by Shigma; 2022-06-20 at 09:44 AM.

  7. #2387
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    yeah, I just use matchmaking in game, don't even bother trying to join advertised groups. so far I've had one vault fail once and one vault that I think bugged out on us on third floor (there were no guards left that I could see but tiles remained grayed out to proceed to the next floor) so we didn't get to go all the way through. but overall just make sure to manage your health and stick with the group as much as possible. the mechanics are - kill everything that moves, loot everything that drops, otherwise avoid the usual things that you would elsewhere, like mob AoE's etc. you only have one health pot instead of 3, but there are provided health fountains that drop those ground pots - use them wisely, but DO use them.

    that's it. that's the vault. I went in first time completely blind at lvl 47 and it was fine. I've been to groups with all paragon players, and groups with a mix of paragon and still leveling players.

    edited to add... I have a feeling that paragon 30 is going to be the point where I'm going to stop playing regularly (or at all). I'm not having TOO much trouble playing on hell 1, but without paying, and grinding like crazy - I'm having trouble getting my combat rating up. currently I decided to only open free chest in legacy of horadrim, to both see how long it will take me to save up enough aspirant keys to open all the possible chests and to see if I get lucky and get that horadric gem thingie or whatever (I don't have much hope on that second though since it seems like rng for it to drop is pretty bad - another one of those "spend money" schemes, this time on so-called discounted packs that contain crests and keys)
    On the vault, never really had it bug and I've done it over a dozen times by now. Important to note is to chase down the wardens when they spawn and if immortals are entering the vault, proceed as a group and save cooldowns; if the immortal group catches someone who falls behind or finds the group trying to handle an overpull they can kill you all and the run ends.

    Things definitely change at paragon 30 but mostly because people switch early. If you move to Hell 2 with CR under 1200 you are going to have a bad time. And you should use the party finder once you get to Hell 2 for dungeons. Whether you are paying or not for gem runs, you also want to do dungeons to get your set items and spamming dungeons is best done by finding a decent group and just farming until someone gets the set item they want. Every week, two dungeons have significantly increased chance to drop legendaries and dungeon legendaries seem to drop well beyond the hidden cap (I was farming Pit of Anguish for the neck and I got about 8 legendaries/set items in 15 runs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    This 100%.

    I can understand the frustration of people that wanna play competitive and dominate and not spending a penny because they can grind 24/7 but DI is not their type of game.
    The thing is, a major part of the game is Cycle of Strife and unlike classic mobile gameplay, Cycle of Strife is very much about people playing the game for 3-4 hours per day. I'm sure all the Dark Clan leaders who overcame the immortals this weekend (or the next) easily hit the battle point cap every week.

  8. #2388
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They still make $50,000 and in the context of Diablo Immortal that $50,000 player can still do the content in the game, right? It is nothing but exaggeration. Of course better geared players will out perform lesser geared. But your damage compared to the better geared players is irrelevant. It is how you can do the content of the game that is the important thing. So you don't do zero damage for PvE content which is why it is a silly statement.
    The 50k player hits the enemy for 0.1% of its health.
    The 1B player then oneshots the enemy, doing 99.9% of its health. He then rolls away, oneshoting everything in the area before the 50k player lands another blow.

    0.1% approaches zero.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Why are Crests priced at 160 orbs instead of 100 like a stone?
    Why is a car $30,000 and a house is $150,000. Different things have different prices. Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    It's the most popular game in US right now and in top 10 revenue bringer in US.
    Clearly it wasn't designed for Asian market.
    Bubble tea is popular in the US, so it isn't Asian anymore. Who knew.
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  9. #2389
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    The 50k player hits the enemy for 0.1% of its health.
    The 1B player then oneshots the enemy, doing 99.9% of its health. He then rolls away, oneshoting everything in the area before the 50k player lands another blow.
    Enemy health doesn't scale based on how much money you spend. It scales off of paragon level. Of course a higher geared person can kill faster then a lower geared person. Duh. A non-paying person will still be able to quickly kill things at their paragon level. Have you actually played the game or played it with out paying? Because it is clear you think a non-paying person will have to spend tons of time killing things when that isn't the case at all.
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  10. #2390
    Man, I actually bothered to watch some of this video, and it's hilarious that people keep parroting Josh Hayes' thing about how many currencies there are.

    Meanwhile he counts things like "battle pass progress" as a currency just to make it seem unreasonable. Or basic materials that existed in D3 like Scrap Material and Enchanted Dust.

    Are the actual purchased currencies confusing? Of course not. Does it make good clickbait to claim, "omg Immortal has 87 currencies to confuse and bewilder poor dumb schmucks!!!"...yes, yes it does.

  11. #2391
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Enemy health doesn't scale based on how much money you spend. It scales off of paragon level. Of course a higher geared person can kill faster then a lower geared person. Duh. A non-paying person will still be able to quickly kill things at their paragon level. Have you actually played the game or played it with out paying? Because it is clear you think a non-paying person will have to spend tons of time killing things when that isn't the case at all.
    Two issues... First, how long would it take a non-paying player to reach the X paragon level in which they can "kill things as fast as a player who paid and has already gotten to X paragon level"?

    Second, you mention gearing... we've seen that a paying player (using up to 10 crests per rift run) gains much more loot drops than a non-paying player. So then wouldn't the non-paying player always behind. And not just a little bit behind but an incredibly large delta difference?

    Maybe in PvE it's not as big of deal, but factor in PvP... that seems incredibly unfun unless DI specifically groups non-paying players with only other non-paying players and paying players can only play with other paying players. (And that even has issues for the later group)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shigma View Post
    DI =/= D4. Just in case. Different market, different platform, chances are they are monetization in D4 will be really different. You still will have to buy D4... at least for now, that's the plan. So i still believe D4 won't be affected by this... but things can change at any point.
    Maybe, but a case could be made that D4 can be just as scummy as DI with MTX made to exploit it's playerbase beyond the initial upfront cost of the game.

    The issue is that gone are the days where a developer makes a game, maybe adds a 1~2 expansion packs, then moves on. Instead corporations have it in their minds to make everything a Games As A Service platform.

    Just take a look at Ubisoft's AC series of late: Tons of MTX left and right. From cosmetics to faster XP gains to maps for treasures to raw materials (so you don't have to farm for them).

    Yes, Blizzard did say that the MTX for D4 is centered around cosmetics and future expansions/DLC but what they didn't say is that the MTX for D4 would ONLY be for cosmetics and future expansions/DLC. As it stands, they could add in P2W elements and state that they never excluded such additions for the MTX shop for D4.

    All of this is basically due to how poorly Wyatt Chang (and Blizzard) has communicated. A lot less complaints would be here if Blizzard just came out and spoke truthy: Diablo Immortal is a P2W game and designed to maximize MTX returns as much as possible. Sure there's a "free" experience there but be warned that you are going to be incredibly disadvantaged left and right unless you pay up.
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  12. #2392
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Two issues... First, how long would it take a non-paying player to reach the X paragon level in which they can "kill things as fast as a player who paid and has already gotten to X paragon level"?
    0. Nothing in DI, except for bosses, takes a while to kill. Even as a non-paying customer you can easily out gear Hell 1. I feel like you, and others, haven't actually played the game to experience the mechanics. Instead you argue on principle based on theory and hypothetical. The non-paying player is only behind in legendary gems. Yes that is a big draw for gearing but it isn't the only source of power and it definitely isn't needed to do things in the game. The game even forces grouping (2 to 4) depending on the Hell level even though you could likely solo stuff except for bosses. So it over compensates even for non-paying customers

    PvP also has a debuff called "Strife" that reduces the effectiveness of Legendary gems among other things. So while there will be a gap in PvP the game does reduce it in order to get some balance. Also the presence of different brackets implies you won't be matched with different brackets so paying players should eventually filter to higher brackets quicker. Though I'm not sure if the brackets filter and most players might not be high enough for it to matter.
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  13. #2393
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    Look, I agree that Diablo Immortal is overly monetized, but if you lack the self-control that you have to purposely fight yourself to not spend money, that honestly sounds like a you problem and I'd recommend you stay away from gambling.
    It’s not about self control or lack of it. It’s about designing a game in such a way that everything literally forces you to spend money - while lying and calling the game free.

    Take PoE for example. It’s “free” alright. However, the inventory that is available for free is simply not enough to play the game efficiently. The game is designed - purposely of course - in such a way that you’re either spending real money for extra inventory, or get stuck in a situation where you have to spend 90% of your playtime micromanaging the inventory (maps are a good example).

    It the game free? No, because you essentially unable to enjoy it unless you spend real money. It’s a great game, but still a fraud.

  14. #2394
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    It’s not about self control or lack of it. It’s about designing a game in such a way that everything literally forces you to spend money - while lying and calling the game free.

    Take PoE for example. It’s “free” alright. However, the inventory that is available for free is simply not enough to play the game efficiently. The game is designed - purposely of course - in such a way that you’re either spending real money for extra inventory, or get stuck in a situation where you have to spend 90% of your playtime micromanaging the inventory (maps are a good example).

    It the game free? No, because you essentially unable to enjoy it unless you spend real money. It’s a great game, but still a fraud.
    I liken it to D2in a way. Currently I am over paragon 30, in Hell2, haven't spent anything nor have felt the need to. Those higher star gems are like those uber rare runes and uniques. I could farm forever and may never see one or I could buy them off a third party site to make the progress faster. DI is not unenjoyably as a free payer IMO, as I am having fun.

  15. #2395
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    0. Nothing in DI, except for bosses, takes a while to kill.
    Sure, go ahead and switch to hell2 at Paragon 30 with a combat rating of 1100's which is what many players run into. Guess what happens to you then? Oh you're one shottable and mobs take reduced damage. Know what fixes that? Paying money.

    You have to grind hell 2 for gear to use in hell2 but to live in hell 2 well you better be REAL fucking lucky with drops to get that combat rating up if you're not shelling out for gems.

  16. #2396
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I feel like you, and others, haven't actually played the game to experience the mechanics. Instead you argue on principle based on theory and hypothetical.
    Well yeah. Most of it is either "I just don't like mobile!" and the rest is, "Well, youtuber said..."

  17. #2397
    Wow when the cycle starts again and all the whales have to climb back up the PvP ladder, that's when you feel the pain.

  18. #2398
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Sure, go ahead and switch to hell2 at Paragon 30 with a combat rating of 1100's which is what many players run into. Guess what happens to you then? Oh you're one shottable and mobs take reduced damage. Know what fixes that? Paying money.
    Legendary gems are not the only way to upgrade combat rating. Of course paying money gains power. DI is pay to win. That still doesn't change that a free player can do 99% of the game with out paying. It isn't that hard to get gear but yes higher difficulties get harder.
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  19. #2399
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Legendary gems are not the only way to upgrade combat rating. Of course paying money gains power. DI is pay to win. That still doesn't change that a free player can do 99% of the game with out paying. It isn't that hard to get gear but yes higher difficulties get harder.
    Again, there is a difference between a free player doing 99% of the game and a P2W player doing it 10X fucking faster. Sure free player can do 99% of the game, just how long are we talking here? Years? Free player struggles to clear in hell2 to get gear for combat rating while a player who paid to win just 1 shots all the mobs and continues to outpace the free player in levels, gear quality and gear quantity because they kill faster and are less likely to die.

    Have you played the game at Hell2+ yet?

  20. #2400
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Again, there is a difference between a free player doing 99% of the game and a P2W player doing it 10X fucking faster.
    I have never said there isn't a difference between a free and pay player. So I'm not sure you are arguing against. It will take years to level up gems. It won't take years to get to Hell2+. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet. The entire premise of the Diablo franchise, and most ARPG games, is to grind for gear. A free player can still do that and can still progress and advance.

    Will they hit walls that a paying player might not? Sure. That is bound to happen with being able to pay for power. Duh. It still doesn't mean that a free player is required to pay or at a mechanical disadvantage for not paying.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 09:08 PM.
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