World of Warcraft: Dragonflight - Talent System Design Philosophy

[Alkizon]

SamuelGrazza
Instead of interrupt being on the talent tree, make it baseline and instead replace it in the tree with a passive that rewards you for doing so with a stat boost or ability proc

loras
Or a shorter cooldown.

Luck4
they can even make worse versions baseline and add the current SL version as an upgrade in the tree

Ashana Darkmoon
they shouldn't have so many abilities in the trees. I'd rather have stuff to "mutate" them.

And ↑ this ↑, people, is the very purpose of talents, which they must fulfill. but Blizzard, starting from a certain stage

This whole heresy began with Cata and with incoherent introduction of such characteristic as mastery into the game. MoP stands apart from all ugliness that has been going on recently only because there was more correct set of characteristics/itemization (no items-characteristics scaling, secondary characteristics that separate as hit+exp+sp/pvp-res&str, PvP+PvE-sets) and the fact that perks were cross-specialized (mostly same perks for all specializations of same class, although even then there was already a certain bias) - so, not because "class system" was better, just itemization one that was.

Answering some of questions in the topic:
- allow full scope of abilities and mechanics to whole class (as, in fact, was before, "situational utility" is mostly class' part, not talents' one) with couple of specific ones putting to inherit from certain talents or from some of basic abilities (heard about evolution, development of abilities, transition to new class(school)/obtaining new dan of "your studies" and so on? there is topic in archive ones)
- glyphs were general/"cross-directional" talents, they quite good and original complemented old system
- MoP didn't have "best class design", but one of most balanced designs in terms of characteristics, hence such impression, there were no talents then, just basically class-wide perks (by some analogy with glyphs), and all basic talents were obtained on freebie - were shoved inside specs by default without choice.

as I have repeatedly emphasized

stuff, which, in theory, should be your choice, you receive in ultimatum order (former talents), and stuff that you should receive by default isn't given to you (former spells), but is provided not just "as choice", but also in such way, that only small part of what is supposed to be available to you (spec as form of cut/defective class) - theater of absurd

continue "to dance" talents around active abilities choice

btw, as has been repeatedly mentioned in this topic, such "mistakes" in design used to have to be nerfed in old system, but they're basis of their design for new one *twirling finger at temple*

also with over-narrow specialization

with same success, right tree can be called "role tree", not spec one, this isn't specialization when you remain "defective as class", you continue to be "separate highly specialized role-class", spec is when you're simply "better than others" in something, and not when you can only do your own, and they can do theirs (John can only read, Josh can only write and Jill can only listen, awesome design) - nothing changed

and judging by their text (although I managed to indicate this direction even before their "frank confession", point out such inconsistencies in their first pictures)

All that they returned, as I understand it, are spell/talent ranks, but class part is all that you must have as a representative at the end of character growth, so now you decided to take away "mandatory" part little differently than in few previous expansions? right?
- - -
you offer players to hard lock/cut off their previously soft options by "choice" again (stuff that must be obtained unconditionally, and not partly upon choice), so what has changed? looks like - not much, you just handed guillotine mechanism to players themselves.

VS

Main advantage of old trees wasn't diversity (although it was, global system allowed to have it, but why? and answer is further), but freedom to choose each/any/little step of progress/castimization elements without violating class priorities. In other words, what was previously part of choice is no longer one = it's spec's default package now, but what was previously available to class as such has become "choice element" and not even everything, but only stuff, that devs decided for this spec... imo, deal is wildly unfair.

"cup of patience" will going overflow in this expansion.

ps.

All that needs to be depicted in these pictures is a list of mechanics and abilities going into spell book by default as character grows (aka class material), and ONE class tree (no separate specs', no PvP perks - PvP sets do this, but without abilities, only light talents, here's how it's done right) with branches that start from usual small bonuses to general characteristics, growing into buffs/modifiers of certain mechanics/spells and ending with "resulting" for particular branch(es), modified&replaced/added - arising from previous talents, which will be "face" of this specialization.

[rrayy]

Facts are facts though, it is a fact that Blizzard has a pattern of ignoring player feedback on shit design choices. The pattern exists, you pretending it doesn't change that fact. While it is no means a guarantee that this abominable iteration of the talent system will remain as outright terrible as it currently is, it certainly isn't wise to bet they'll change it significantly until after it has been out on live for at least 2 months.

It is a fact that this system brings almost no new abilities or passives in its current state, as the majority of it is simply spells being removed from your spellbook and being placed into a talent tree. The few things that aren't currently spells are almost entirely legendary or covenant powers. Do I expect them to cut down on how many baseline abilities they rip out of your class or spec to shove into this terrible talent tree? Not to any meaningful degree. Their iterating on shit design rarely results in anything other than them eventually only partially fixing the problem they created, often 3-12 months down the line from when it went live.

Agagin, Your opinion.

They do NOT ignore you. They ALWAYS listen. They simply disagree with you. Not caving to your every demand does not = they ignore you,. You thinking something is bad does not mean you are right either. Also, you thinking it is terrible doesn't mean that everyone does. AS I said, your entire argument comes from the fact you simply don't like it. YOu not liking it does not mean it is bad design just as I would say that those out there that are currently praising it means it is good design,.

- - - Updated - - -

literally all based on existing assets. Nothing new designed modeled balanced and tested. Just the same crap reshuffled.

And you know that how? All you saw was a picture. Your claims are completely baseless.

[ellieg]

I'm not looking forward to this at all. In the resto druid tree, bottom left, looks like they make u get germination before u can get circle of life and death? 2 talents cometely at odds of eachother.

And im really dumb, what do the 1s and 2s yiu see on some talents mean? I'm assuming the 2 is like u can spend 2 pts to increase its effect?

[Cosmic Janitor]

I'm not looking forward to this at all. In the resto druid tree, bottom left, looks like they make u get germination before u can get circle of life and death? 2 talents cometely at odds of eachother.

And im really dumb, what do the 1s and 2s yiu see on some talents mean? I'm assuming the 2 is like u can spend 2 pts to increase its effect?

https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights...ClassTree=5,17 Just use one of the calculators.

[ellieg]

https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights...ClassTree=5,17 Just use one of the calculators.

Thanks. Thats useful. Really stupid abt the germination and circle of life and death interaction.

[unbound]

Super excited about having to micromanage my entire raid's talents now also because I can't just assume that people have things like interrupts or survival cooldowns when we need them at a particular time.

If you are part of a serious raiding guild, you shouldn't have to because each raider understands that failure to build properly means that they'll be sidelined.

If you are a casual raiding guild, you won't have to because you are there to enjoy.

Yes, I'm well aware of the massive middle ground in-between those two points. But the points still largely stand even in the big gray zone. Either you are leaning more casual and may point out some pointers, or you are leaning more serious and are looking at sitting out poor performers.

I think the biggest issue I've seen in recent years are the growing number of guilds claiming to be casual raiders, but actually pursuing raiding with a heavily tilted serious raiding attitude.

[Denso]

New trees look great, but will take a lot of time to optimize.

Could see there being 25+ different talent builds based on affixes/dungeons.

[Dystemper]

This expansionis going to be the biggest cluster fuck ever. Designed during convid, low employee morale , key departures, law suits, internal investigations MS take over.....it's a perfect storm of fuckery..

[ZeroWashu]

why did they decide to raise the level cap instead of squishing?

[kamuimac]

why did they decide to raise the level cap instead of squishing?

because they realised squish was a huge mistake like most of things in last 3 expasnions.

[Glorious Leader]

Even without new spells/spell animations it still cost money to make the new UI, code the new tree's and the branching, make spec specific ability's class wide and balance them, Change the code so some skills are no longer base line, make sure nothing breaks along the way ect ect.

Literally every hour of work they are putting into these tree's cost them more money then just leaving the old systems alone and having there designers and coders do something more important.

Thats disingenuous though. The comparison is the amount of time it takes to reshuffle existing assets vs the the time it takes to make NEW ONES entirely. Reshuffling the existing array of abilities spells and talents into a new one takes much less time than having to actually make new spells and abilities. They are regurgitating the same crap you've always had. Its an old wine in a new bottle. seriously I have to talent for tranq. This is ass. It's lazy and it's cheap.

[bloodykiller86]

So glad I have the meaningful choice to not pick an interrupt, was always kind of elitist forcing others to such niche abilities anywho

if anything you dont always need it for every fight and thats what the load outs are for. i can think of quite a few encounters where i never use my interrupt. what i mainly want back is shockwave as fury because it was way more useful in m+ than stormbolt lol

[Rollo]

Thanks. Thats useful. Really stupid abt the germination and circle of life and death interaction.

Correct me if im wrong, and I'm most likely wrong...(following numbers are arbitrary) If rejuvenation heals for 2k over 12 seconds, then germination will make it 2333 over 14 seconds on each rejuv with 2 on a target potentially, and then circle will make it 2333 over 11.9 seconds. Two talent points to keep rejuv length relatively the same, but increase power and allow for 2x application.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thats disingenuous though. The comparison is the amount of time it takes to reshuffle existing assets vs the the time it takes to make NEW ONES entirely. Reshuffling the existing array of abilities spells and talents into a new one takes much less time than having to actually make new spells and abilities. They are regurgitating the same crap you've always had. Its an old wine in a new bottle. seriously I have to talent for tranq. This is ass. It's lazy and it's cheap.

No the difference isn't between reshuffling and making new ones, the developers are paid hourly wages every hour they are spending on reshuffling is costing the company more money then just leaving it alone and not adding any new added power system like players have been asking for.

While adding wholly new stuff would be a larger increase in budget (more paid man hours) doing this reshuffling is still an increase when compared to leaving the talents alone and working on other parts of the expan that need to be done.

[ellieg]

Correct me if im wrong, and I'm most likely wrong...(following numbers are arbitrary) If rejuvenation heals for 2k over 12 seconds, then germination will make it 2333 over 14 seconds on each rejuv with 2 on a target potentially, and then circle will make it 2333 over 11.9 seconds. Two talent points to keep rejuv length relatively the same, but increase power and allow for 2x application.

Ya its just with circle u aren't double rejuving. You get circle for the dps increase mainly. You have less free gcds

[Glorious Leader]

No the difference isn't between reshuffling and making new ones, the developers are paid hourly wages every hour they are spending on reshuffling is costing the company more money then just leaving it alone and not adding any new added power system like players have been asking for.

While adding wholly new stuff would be a larger increase in budget (more paid man hours) doing this reshuffling is still an increase when compared to leaving the talents alone and working on other parts of the expan that need to be done.

What you're saying is they could have done literally nothing and you'd lap it up. You can't see how much a relative savings this crap is over making something new because you've got something up your ass

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What you're saying is they could have done literally nothing and you'd lap it up. You can't see how much a relative savings this crap is over making something new because you've got something up your ass

I have given no statements on my personal feelings on this or any other approach I am not "lapping up" any thing.

What I'm pointing out is that making these change's do not indicate a decrease in budget as every hour they spend on this is costing them more then leaving the current system as is. They could of course be spending more and do a larger overhaul but that's irrelevant to the fact that any change at all means they are not decreasing the budget as that's hourly wages that need to be paid.

[Theangryone]

Looking at the trees, it’s just what we have been saying. Everything old is new again and just like before there is going to be one build that will be the most advantageous

[shise]

It looks good.

People need to google the words prototype and example.

I don´t think they understand their meanings.

[sam86]

Wonder how balance will be, seeing as they can't balance 7 choices properly...

remember how insane balance was in wrath era? protection talents healadin, rogue 50/50 combat/sub infinity combo points build, etc?
expect that back with vengeance