Meaningful choices in new talent tree (Interrupt vs survival cd)

[Valdhammer]

This is what SOME people wanted.

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Times have changed dude. There are way more things that need to be interrupted now.

So maybe they’ll change that in Dragonflight?

[Aleksej89]

huge mistake that blizz dumped so much of the class baseline abilities into the general talent tree.

instead of spending general talents on interesting choices we are spending them trying to stitch the class back together, and praying that everyone else on our team has done the same properly.

also imho a really bad idea to hide interesting general talents into their "miniature" general trees (like in the druid general talents).
since so many points have to be spent to stitch the class back together there often isnt enough points to actually go all the way through a general talent tree and get an unusual/distant talent.

[jeezusisacasual]

Remember when only a few classes had interrupts and we all survived somehow? People need to relax. Plenty of things to criticize Blizz for. These very early talent tree previews are not one of them.

The point is that for every cast a healer has to make is a cast that is not damage which a cast causes, its making up for the tank or a defensive to be used by another dps which in turn slows down your group. We also survived by the dungeons not being a pillar of end game content in which they very much are today. This is not a solo RPG that you get to dictate the terms of which you play, this is a group based game that expects fairly or unfairly actions from you as a member of the team. Will that talent have the same damage reduction for players of the group that is equal to a kick every 15 seconds? Will that provide the same boon to allowing the healer to provide more damage? Will that talent allow for a faster more smooth dungeon experience for the rest of the group? With as many unknowns as this could produce its better to know everything but early on it looks like shit.

[Elias1337]

huge mistake that blizz dumped so much of the class baseline abilities into the general talent tree.

instead of spending general talents on interesting choices we are spending them trying to stitch the class back together, and praying that everyone else on our team has done the same properly.

also imho a really bad idea to hide interesting general talents into their "miniature" general trees (like in the druid general talents).
since so many points have to be spent to stitch the class back together there often isnt enough points to actually go all the way through a general talent tree and get an unusual/distant talent.

Problem is that entilted players traim themself to think their class should be able to anything and everything. I have bad news for you. This is still rpg game and classes should not be homogenized. Its stupid that everybody juwt around with exactl same toolkit.

[Biomega]

Problem is that entilted players traim themself to think their class should be able to anything and everything. I have bad news for you. This is still rpg game and classes should not be homogenized. Its stupid that everybody juwt around with exactl same toolkit.

While true in principle, not all toolkits are created equal, and not all classes get the same amount of tools.

Some abilities are incredibly vital - and interrupts are one of them, at least in dungeons. Not having interrupts is a MASSIVE liability, and it's not really offset by anything comparable.

Some abilities are simply such important core mechanics they shouldn't be choices. Not in the game as it currently exists, anyway.

By all means, give me meaningful choices. That's a good thing that should exist MORE rather than less. But choice can only exist when things are at least somewhat comparable. If one is a 100% default choice or a 90% choice, it's not REALLY a choice. Which means why are you giving me that choice, knowing it's not? Make me choose differently, between things that are more comparable.

Same goes for choices that are binary and have mutually exclusive use-cases, by the way, like "this only works in AoE" vs. "this only works in ST" kind of talents. That's not a choice, that's an inconvenience.

This isn't a dichotomous world where it's either "pretty much automatic choice between 1 or 2, 99% of the time" or "everyone has everything, complete class homogenization". There's PLENTY of room in between.

[Revamp Man]

While bringing back old talent they are making a big mistake by not making interrupts baseline.

Old content tied to timewalking and PvP need interrupts, it´s not much of a choice you have to take the interrupt over other options.

A meaningful choice would be increase damage vs increase survival. That is a choice that can be adapted to your playstyle and needs.

The talent trees are a sketch for now, so I hpe they change that kind of things. Except for that detail the new trees are looking good. They can use some trweaks but seem to be a step in the right direction overall.

I don't need an interrupt on shriekwing or half of the other bosses in raids
Choosing the interrupt for content necessary is the point
It's the same as your dps vs survival cd example because it's what is necessary for the content

[Nerovar]

I love how there are already 4 talent spots in the Death Knight tree that basically translate to "uuh, we've run out of ideas here. Have some secondary stats" while Druids have actual talents in those spots. Very nice Blizzard.

I really dont understand the new general talent trees.
Current classes have been chopped up into pieces, and then we are allowed to choose like half of those pieces that we can use at any one time.

Whats the point of the (for example) general druid tree if it contains mandatory abilities for the role you are performing?
You have to burn all the points on the mandatory role abilities, and if any points remain then perhaps something on the side.

At the end we are again left with less of a class than we even have at the moment.

The general idea is that you end up with pretty much the same classes you've been playing for the last 6 years and the same amount of buttons but with a little more freedom when it comes to choosing the same old talents. It's the bare minimum as usual.

[Tyris Flare]

My favorite conspiracy on these forums is that somehow developers on this game - people who could potentially double their salary working in another industry - don't care about the game and want to make it bad.

Simpler explanation is just mistakes, incorrect assumptions, or a variety of internal pressures that we can't see

[Kallisto]

While true in principle, not all toolkits are created equal, and not all classes get the same amount of tools.

Some abilities are incredibly vital - and interrupts are one of them, at least in dungeons. Not having interrupts is a MASSIVE liability, and it's not really offset by anything comparable.

Some abilities are simply such important core mechanics they shouldn't be choices. Not in the game as it currently exists, anyway.

By all means, give me meaningful choices. That's a good thing that should exist MORE rather than less. But choice can only exist when things are at least somewhat comparable. If one is a 100% default choice or a 90% choice, it's not REALLY a choice. Which means why are you giving me that choice, knowing it's not? Make me choose differently, between things that are more comparable.

Same goes for choices that are binary and have mutually exclusive use-cases, by the way, like "this only works in AoE" vs. "this only works in ST" kind of talents. That's not a choice, that's an inconvenience.

This isn't a dichotomous world where it's either "pretty much automatic choice between 1 or 2, 99% of the time" or "everyone has everything, complete class homogenization". There's PLENTY of room in between.

The problem with this outlook is that the wow community has got itself into a situation of of option A) does 1000 dps playing optimally and option B) Does 999.9 dps playing optimally but is slightly easier playing everyone is going to pick A because they saw the Echos and Liquids use A. Plus the TL DR versions of guides will say pick option A.

So even when there's a choice the playerbase will just act like they're isn't.

[Revamp Man]

My favorite conspiracy on these forums is that somehow developers on this game - people who could potentially double their salary working in another industry - don't care about the game and want to make it bad.

Simpler explanation is just mistakes, incorrect assumptions, or a variety of internal pressures that we can't see

BfA
players: the cache is not working the same way it was for the entirety of testing is this a bug or did you make gearing much more painful?
devs: actually it is working the same way we had it for the last couple of weeks during testing so you just dont get it and it is fine
*a couple months later*
devs: we hear your feedback and are changing how the cache works

players: hey TF feels bad because it inflates your ilvl to the point you dont get rewarded for content suitable for your skill and its rng which feels bad
devs: you just dont like casuals getting loot
players: hey this content needs nerfed because i have a higher ilvl but it is still one shotting me
devs: we hear your feedback and are removing TF and giving you rng corruption
players: these corruptions are broken
devs: no they arent
*proceeds to nerf the same corruption 5 times in a week*
devs: here are purchasable corruptions

devs: here is benthic gear
players: gem sockets on these are a bad idea
devs: it is fine
*during interview*
devs: that was something we didnt catch



that isnt including SL development or recent things

[Biomega]

The problem with this outlook is that the wow community has got itself into a situation of of option A) does 1000 dps playing optimally and option B) Does 999.9 dps playing optimally but is slightly easier playing everyone is going to pick A because they saw the Echos and Liquids use A. Plus the TL DR versions of guides will say pick option A.

So even when there's a choice the playerbase will just act like they're isn't.

That's not entirely wrong (aside from the exaggeration of course, since it's rarely 1,000 vs. 999.9 but usually more like 1,000 vs. 800 or so), but there's ways around that.

Not everything has to be about throughput, for example. Choices tend to be most interesting when they can't simply be mathed out.

In the given example of Interrupt vs. Utility, I'd just make it about something else entirely.

What if, for example, everyone had a baseline interrupt - and your talent choice was whether to reduce its CD, or give it two charges, or increase its CD but also increase its range. That would give you the option to actually switch up how you play without affecting your throughput OR allowing the feelsbad moment of having someone in your group who didn't/forgot to spec interrupt. There's no clear winner so it's not a default choice, and it allows for both tactical play and personal preference.

I want talents like THAT more, rather than talents that just go "take me if you have to do X, otherwise take the alternative" which is just super boring.

[cocomen2]

BfA
players: the cache is not working the same way it was for the entirety of testing is this a bug or did you make gearing much more painful?
devs: actually it is working the same way we had it for the last couple of weeks during testing so you just dont get it and it is fine
*a couple months later*
devs: we hear your feedback and are changing how the cache works

players: hey TF feels bad because it inflates your ilvl to the point you dont get rewarded for content suitable for your skill and its rng which feels bad
devs: you just dont like casuals getting loot
players: hey this content needs nerfed because i have a higher ilvl but it is still one shotting me
devs: we hear your feedback and are removing TF and giving you rng corruption
players: these corruptions are broken
devs: no they arent
*proceeds to nerf the same corruption 5 times in a week*
devs: here are purchasable corruptions

devs: here is benthic gear
players: gem sockets on these are a bad idea
devs: it is fine
*during interview*
devs: that was something we didnt catch



that isnt including SL development or recent things

And don't forget classic ION line: "I don't want any of these Shamans in my raid group","They just 2-3% behind" from last spot.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The problem with this outlook is that the wow community has got itself into a situation of of option A) does 1000 dps playing optimally and option B) Does 999.9 dps playing optimally but is slightly easier playing everyone is going to pick A because they saw the Echos and Liquids use A. Plus the TL DR versions of guides will say pick option A.

So even when there's a choice the playerbase will just act like they're isn't.

I'd say that is just patendly false, as hunter has been showing for almost 2 deacades now. People will always gravitate towards the easymode spec (BM) if the performance is somewhat compareable, simply because they can actually pull it off. Maybe not in the first week of the expansion, but it will always change towards that with time.

[Stormdash]

I'd be willing to give it a chance if I come back to retail. The fact of the matter is that at the height of the game's popularity interrupts were not universal nor were they equal (shaman was just better, for instance). It's not like that was a reason why it was popular, but they shouldn't be afraid to design any system the way it was when it was all the most popular, at least not without trying.

[klaps_05]

I mean you can get both, you need to piss away 8 points in the beginning anyway to get into the 5th row.

Kick will always be the lowest priority.

You take the talents which sim highest.
Then you take the talents which keep you alive the most.
Then you take utility like kick/stun/etc.

Given that now you suddenly have access to ALL survivability of all specs essentially and being able to fulfill only around 60% of the tree (31 points to almost 60 nodes), there arent actually points to piss away.

The biggest problem that comes is having ppl forced into those choices. Like DK and AMZ. Like lowest DPS guy and Kicks/utilities.

[Nymrohd]

I'd say that is just patendly false, as hunter has been showing for almost 2 deacades now. People will always gravitate towards the easymode spec (BM) if the performance is somewhat compareable, simply because they can actually pull it off. Maybe not in the first week of the expansion, but it will always change towards that with time.

YEah they will pick the easier spec but they won't pick the slightly lower dps but much more consistent version of that spec. They'll pick something else over bloodletting even though bloodletting makes maintaining perfect uptime of frenzy much, much easier and is at most a 2% dps loss. And that's not because the players mess it up. It's because many of the guide writers are bad at their job and even those who explain the differences and how some choices are slightly weaker but much easier will still give the optimal one in TLDR.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Kick will always be the lowest priority.

You take the talents which sim highest.
Then you take the talents which keep you alive the most.
Then you take utility like kick/stun/etc.

Given that now you suddenly have access to ALL survivability of all specs essentially and being able to fulfill only around 60% of the tree (31 points to almost 60 nodes), there arent actually points to piss away.

The biggest problem that comes is having ppl forced into those choices. Like DK and AMZ. Like lowest DPS guy and Kicks/utilities.

In the case of brainfreeze it's rather simple, it's the second talent in the tree and on the left side and if you are unholy or frost at least you will want to have some points in the other side of the tree. This is a bit where the illusion of choice comes in, because you don't really have much of it because of the breakpoints you need to reach and the way the trees are formed prevents you from actually crossing them for the most part, since you can only go down, not back up. So at least as DPS you will absolutely have an interrupt and tanks usually as well. In the druid tree the thing is a bit more ambigious, but then druids were always the odd ones out among dps when it comes to interrupts.

Edit: You can play with it yourself. https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights...,96,99,109,117
Unless you want to miss out on stuff like runic corruption in favor of getting death's advance, you will most likely always have a decent amount in the frost tree as unholy and the same is true for frost obviously. I think you will be hard pressed to grab more dps talents by going blood instead. In fact I think DK will have way more issues with mobility, since we are neither unstoppable juggernauts with a build like that nor are we fast. Chances are we will see not just more wheelchair-bound DKs than usual, figuratively they will also lack wheels and instead come with 4 red cinder bricks.
Edit2: Nvm, you can drop 2 more points on the unholy side and easily get at least death's advance as well. I'd probably fear more that the only way to get a raid spot will be if you spec abom limb as we've seen during the sylvanas raid.