Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    First of all, we'd both need to prove it.
    No, it is actually up to you to prove they do it bad on purpose. It is a logical fallacy i would have to prove it is not bad on purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You just said "lol they're stupid come on".
    Well, that is the most logical reason, based on Hanlon's razor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're again smuggling evil into this. No one is evil. There's nothing sinister going on. They're simply going with what they think is an easy solution that'll make players happy and not require them to do insane amounts of work. Even if it means it's mostly hoodwinking.
    You talked about "ruthless", and that normally includes being evil. But hey, lets just agree to disagree here

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    No, it is actually up to you to prove they do it bad on purpose. It is a logical fallacy i would have to prove it is not bad on purpose.
    The burden of proof is on any claim. "They're stupid" isn't the null hypothesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Well, that is the most logical reason, based on Hanlon's razor.
    Hanlon's razor deals with malice. I've already explained there's nothing malicious going on. It doesn't apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    You talked about "ruthless", and that normally includes being evil. But hey, lets just agree to disagree here
    Those are not the same thing. Certainly not in the way of malice, like you assert.

    Try again, please.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The burden of proof is on any claim. "They're stupid" isn't the null hypothesis.
    As a logical consequence and based on Hanlon's razor it is. What is left if you do not create shit on purpose?

    Right. Incompetence. And sorry, do you really ask for proofs of incompetence if we take a look at Shadowlands and BFA? I have no idea why the developers are incompetent. But my guess is because they only care about their own bias, so they create a game for their own needs only and do not know what their customers want. Imagine a lawyer who raided mythic raids only and who made some theorycrafting excel tables as the game director of a broad audience game. Then imagine he tries to create game systems for millions of players he does not understand. Yep. That is what happened to BFA and Shadowlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Hanlon's razor deals with malice. I've already explained there's nothing malicious going on. It doesn't apply.
    Yes, and ruthlessness is related to malice . I also tried to explain that.

    See Merriam Webster.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/ruthless

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Try again, please.
    Ah no i better stop it at this point. Seems you see discussing as a battle and you want to win it at all means. Which is not really productive. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-06-05 at 07:09 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    As a logical consequence and based on Hanlon's razor it is. What is left if you do not create shit on purpose?
    You're basing everything on a device that's mostly tongue-in-cheek, but even if taken seriously simply doesn't apply to the point I was making.

    AND EVEN IF IT DID, all it says is "incompetence is more likely than malice"

    IT DOES NOT say "anything that isn't malice is automatically incompetence".

    That is absolutely elementary formal logic.

    Yours is a claim like any other, and one that requires proof like any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Yes, and ruthlessness is related to malice . I also tried to explain that.
    "Related to" isn't the same as "equal to". "Good" is related to "evil", too.

    An automated online thesaurus isn't a source for coequal definitions. Geez.

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Ah no i better stop it at this point. Seems you see discussing as a battle and you want to win it at all means. Which is not really productive. Have a nice day.
    "I don't understand how to argue properly, so I'm just going to say I don't really care and bow out."

    Probably the smartest thing you've said in this thread.

  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans Advent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    The Other Side.
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The problem is, if something isn't actually a choice WHY IS IT IN THERE.

    That's one of the big points of criticism from old talents - stuff that you just put points in without thinking, every time. That's not fun. That's not engaging. That's just clicking on something to have the feeling of having done something, when really you didn't.

    That's shit design.
    Because it IS a choice for other specs. This is what people wanted, and Blizzard delivered it to them.

  6. #26
    Remember when only a few classes had interrupts and we all survived somehow? People need to relax. Plenty of things to criticize Blizz for. These very early talent tree previews are not one of them.

  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,704
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Because it IS a choice for other specs. This is what people wanted, and Blizzard delivered it to them.
    This is what SOME people wanted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    Remember when only a few classes had interrupts and we all survived somehow? People need to relax. Plenty of things to criticize Blizz for. These very early talent tree previews are not one of them.
    Times have changed dude. There are way more things that need to be interrupted now.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    This is what SOME people wanted.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Times have changed dude. There are way more things that need to be interrupted now.
    So maybe they’ll change that in Dragonflight?

  9. #29
    huge mistake that blizz dumped so much of the class baseline abilities into the general talent tree.

    instead of spending general talents on interesting choices we are spending them trying to stitch the class back together, and praying that everyone else on our team has done the same properly.

    also imho a really bad idea to hide interesting general talents into their "miniature" general trees (like in the druid general talents).
    since so many points have to be spent to stitch the class back together there often isnt enough points to actually go all the way through a general talent tree and get an unusual/distant talent.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    Remember when only a few classes had interrupts and we all survived somehow? People need to relax. Plenty of things to criticize Blizz for. These very early talent tree previews are not one of them.
    The point is that for every cast a healer has to make is a cast that is not damage which a cast causes, its making up for the tank or a defensive to be used by another dps which in turn slows down your group. We also survived by the dungeons not being a pillar of end game content in which they very much are today. This is not a solo RPG that you get to dictate the terms of which you play, this is a group based game that expects fairly or unfairly actions from you as a member of the team. Will that talent have the same damage reduction for players of the group that is equal to a kick every 15 seconds? Will that provide the same boon to allowing the healer to provide more damage? Will that talent allow for a faster more smooth dungeon experience for the rest of the group? With as many unknowns as this could produce its better to know everything but early on it looks like shit.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    huge mistake that blizz dumped so much of the class baseline abilities into the general talent tree.

    instead of spending general talents on interesting choices we are spending them trying to stitch the class back together, and praying that everyone else on our team has done the same properly.

    also imho a really bad idea to hide interesting general talents into their "miniature" general trees (like in the druid general talents).
    since so many points have to be spent to stitch the class back together there often isnt enough points to actually go all the way through a general talent tree and get an unusual/distant talent.
    Problem is that entilted players traim themself to think their class should be able to anything and everything. I have bad news for you. This is still rpg game and classes should not be homogenized. Its stupid that everybody juwt around with exactl same toolkit.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Problem is that entilted players traim themself to think their class should be able to anything and everything. I have bad news for you. This is still rpg game and classes should not be homogenized. Its stupid that everybody juwt around with exactl same toolkit.
    While true in principle, not all toolkits are created equal, and not all classes get the same amount of tools.

    Some abilities are incredibly vital - and interrupts are one of them, at least in dungeons. Not having interrupts is a MASSIVE liability, and it's not really offset by anything comparable.

    Some abilities are simply such important core mechanics they shouldn't be choices. Not in the game as it currently exists, anyway.

    By all means, give me meaningful choices. That's a good thing that should exist MORE rather than less. But choice can only exist when things are at least somewhat comparable. If one is a 100% default choice or a 90% choice, it's not REALLY a choice. Which means why are you giving me that choice, knowing it's not? Make me choose differently, between things that are more comparable.

    Same goes for choices that are binary and have mutually exclusive use-cases, by the way, like "this only works in AoE" vs. "this only works in ST" kind of talents. That's not a choice, that's an inconvenience.

    This isn't a dichotomous world where it's either "pretty much automatic choice between 1 or 2, 99% of the time" or "everyone has everything, complete class homogenization". There's PLENTY of room in between.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    While bringing back old talent they are making a big mistake by not making interrupts baseline.

    Old content tied to timewalking and PvP need interrupts, it´s not much of a choice you have to take the interrupt over other options.

    A meaningful choice would be increase damage vs increase survival. That is a choice that can be adapted to your playstyle and needs.

    The talent trees are a sketch for now, so I hpe they change that kind of things. Except for that detail the new trees are looking good. They can use some trweaks but seem to be a step in the right direction overall.
    I don't need an interrupt on shriekwing or half of the other bosses in raids
    Choosing the interrupt for content necessary is the point
    It's the same as your dps vs survival cd example because it's what is necessary for the content

  14. #34
    I love how there are already 4 talent spots in the Death Knight tree that basically translate to "uuh, we've run out of ideas here. Have some secondary stats" while Druids have actual talents in those spots. Very nice Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    I really dont understand the new general talent trees.
    Current classes have been chopped up into pieces, and then we are allowed to choose like half of those pieces that we can use at any one time.

    Whats the point of the (for example) general druid tree if it contains mandatory abilities for the role you are performing?
    You have to burn all the points on the mandatory role abilities, and if any points remain then perhaps something on the side.

    At the end we are again left with less of a class than we even have at the moment.
    The general idea is that you end up with pretty much the same classes you've been playing for the last 6 years and the same amount of buttons but with a little more freedom when it comes to choosing the same old talents. It's the bare minimum as usual.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-06-06 at 01:04 AM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  15. #35
    My favorite conspiracy on these forums is that somehow developers on this game - people who could potentially double their salary working in another industry - don't care about the game and want to make it bad.

    Simpler explanation is just mistakes, incorrect assumptions, or a variety of internal pressures that we can't see
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    While true in principle, not all toolkits are created equal, and not all classes get the same amount of tools.

    Some abilities are incredibly vital - and interrupts are one of them, at least in dungeons. Not having interrupts is a MASSIVE liability, and it's not really offset by anything comparable.

    Some abilities are simply such important core mechanics they shouldn't be choices. Not in the game as it currently exists, anyway.

    By all means, give me meaningful choices. That's a good thing that should exist MORE rather than less. But choice can only exist when things are at least somewhat comparable. If one is a 100% default choice or a 90% choice, it's not REALLY a choice. Which means why are you giving me that choice, knowing it's not? Make me choose differently, between things that are more comparable.

    Same goes for choices that are binary and have mutually exclusive use-cases, by the way, like "this only works in AoE" vs. "this only works in ST" kind of talents. That's not a choice, that's an inconvenience.

    This isn't a dichotomous world where it's either "pretty much automatic choice between 1 or 2, 99% of the time" or "everyone has everything, complete class homogenization". There's PLENTY of room in between.
    The problem with this outlook is that the wow community has got itself into a situation of of option A) does 1000 dps playing optimally and option B) Does 999.9 dps playing optimally but is slightly easier playing everyone is going to pick A because they saw the Echos and Liquids use A. Plus the TL DR versions of guides will say pick option A.

    So even when there's a choice the playerbase will just act like they're isn't.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    My favorite conspiracy on these forums is that somehow developers on this game - people who could potentially double their salary working in another industry - don't care about the game and want to make it bad.

    Simpler explanation is just mistakes, incorrect assumptions, or a variety of internal pressures that we can't see
    BfA
    players: the cache is not working the same way it was for the entirety of testing is this a bug or did you make gearing much more painful?
    devs: actually it is working the same way we had it for the last couple of weeks during testing so you just dont get it and it is fine
    *a couple months later*
    devs: we hear your feedback and are changing how the cache works

    players: hey TF feels bad because it inflates your ilvl to the point you dont get rewarded for content suitable for your skill and its rng which feels bad
    devs: you just dont like casuals getting loot
    players: hey this content needs nerfed because i have a higher ilvl but it is still one shotting me
    devs: we hear your feedback and are removing TF and giving you rng corruption
    players: these corruptions are broken
    devs: no they arent
    *proceeds to nerf the same corruption 5 times in a week*
    devs: here are purchasable corruptions

    devs: here is benthic gear
    players: gem sockets on these are a bad idea
    devs: it is fine
    *during interview*
    devs: that was something we didnt catch



    that isnt including SL development or recent things

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    The problem with this outlook is that the wow community has got itself into a situation of of option A) does 1000 dps playing optimally and option B) Does 999.9 dps playing optimally but is slightly easier playing everyone is going to pick A because they saw the Echos and Liquids use A. Plus the TL DR versions of guides will say pick option A.

    So even when there's a choice the playerbase will just act like they're isn't.
    That's not entirely wrong (aside from the exaggeration of course, since it's rarely 1,000 vs. 999.9 but usually more like 1,000 vs. 800 or so), but there's ways around that.

    Not everything has to be about throughput, for example. Choices tend to be most interesting when they can't simply be mathed out.

    In the given example of Interrupt vs. Utility, I'd just make it about something else entirely.

    What if, for example, everyone had a baseline interrupt - and your talent choice was whether to reduce its CD, or give it two charges, or increase its CD but also increase its range. That would give you the option to actually switch up how you play without affecting your throughput OR allowing the feelsbad moment of having someone in your group who didn't/forgot to spec interrupt. There's no clear winner so it's not a default choice, and it allows for both tactical play and personal preference.

    I want talents like THAT more, rather than talents that just go "take me if you have to do X, otherwise take the alternative" which is just super boring.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    BfA
    players: the cache is not working the same way it was for the entirety of testing is this a bug or did you make gearing much more painful?
    devs: actually it is working the same way we had it for the last couple of weeks during testing so you just dont get it and it is fine
    *a couple months later*
    devs: we hear your feedback and are changing how the cache works

    players: hey TF feels bad because it inflates your ilvl to the point you dont get rewarded for content suitable for your skill and its rng which feels bad
    devs: you just dont like casuals getting loot
    players: hey this content needs nerfed because i have a higher ilvl but it is still one shotting me
    devs: we hear your feedback and are removing TF and giving you rng corruption
    players: these corruptions are broken
    devs: no they arent
    *proceeds to nerf the same corruption 5 times in a week*
    devs: here are purchasable corruptions

    devs: here is benthic gear
    players: gem sockets on these are a bad idea
    devs: it is fine
    *during interview*
    devs: that was something we didnt catch



    that isnt including SL development or recent things
    And don't forget classic ION line: "I don't want any of these Shamans in my raid group","They just 2-3% behind" from last spot.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    My favorite conspiracy on these forums is that somehow developers on this game - people who could potentially double their salary working in another industry - don't care about the game and want to make it bad.

    Simpler explanation is just mistakes, incorrect assumptions, or a variety of internal pressures that we can't see
    Well, no, they are not victims. Victims are their players they design their game for. And no, i do not believe it is "internal pressures" but simply incompetence. They do not know better. And i belileve they are blinded by their own tunnel vision.

    Just watch how they handle the dungeon finder in wotlk classic, where 70% of the players want it ingame. They simply ignore player wishes based on their own bias "the dungeon finder is evil". Ion Hazzikostas simply cannot stand that matchmaking is the most successfull way in WoW to create group play.

    He simply should accept the facts. That would save millions of their players from another round of tunnel visioned system implementations.
    Last edited by cantrip; 2022-06-06 at 06:47 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •