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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think the issue here is that bad builds will be far, far more bad than they have ever been before. You'll be able to spec e.g. feral and end up not even having an actual rotation on the spec that at different times in the game had more things to juggle than any two other specs. Cataclysm and then MoP worked by taking the talent tree concept and reducing it to more meaningful choices. These trees are effectively deconstructing the entire class.
    i am very ready to see how this system looks with my monk but i think some of the criticism is a bit overboard

    i tested out the talent calculator at mythic trap with a blood dk since that is the closest thing to a class i play and in the general tree you can build in blood/frost for more CC and a defensive OR you can build in UH for a ghoul and increased dps or you can just go full blood. Now you do miss out on some abilities that are currently baseline in these choices like
    interrupt, slow, or a CC but that is only if you completely ignore frost.

    The progression in it also requires a certain number of points to be spent so if you literally only go after the talents you can get via the blood path you still have to spend 6 more points which is a full path from the frost or UH path. You then have 10 more points. You can ignore movement speed buffs if you are facing a boss like patchwerk where movement is useless and then pick up better abilities maybe moving further down the UH side so you have your ghoul and a bit more damage....is that optimal?? probably not but it isnt unplayable.

    The blood tree has similar choices between a defensive build or a healing build. Blizzard is giving choices and yes some choices are idiotic but if you take them then that is on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    And i hope they will have interrupt as an optional talent pick.
    I have always joked about not having interrupt on my bars when in groups. Now i could seriously say im not talented into it. Priceless.
    This is actually the best chance blizzard has at making wow "great" again. Or vanilla like.
    The trolling. Awful builds. Clueless and useless people in groups and world. God i hope this makes it live.
    the interrupts are optional along with most CC and that is 100% fine. I thought players had a problem with blizzard not giving meaningful choice but here you literally choose between an interrupt/CC or (in the case of a DK) gaining 5% haste in your death and decay

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    frost can have an obliterate build or a heavy aoe DW build

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    i am very ready to see how this system looks with my monk but i think some of the criticism is a bit overboard

    i tested out the talent calculator at mythic trap with a blood dk since that is the closest thing to a class i play and in the general tree you can build in blood/frost for more CC and a defensive OR you can build in UH for a ghoul and increased dps or you can just go full blood. Now you do miss out on some abilities that are currently baseline in these choices like
    interrupt, slow, or a CC but that is only if you completely ignore frost.

    The progression in it also requires a certain number of points to be spent so if you literally only go after the talents you can get via the blood path you still have to spend 6 more points which is a full path from the frost or UH path. You then have 10 more points. You can ignore movement speed buffs if you are facing a boss like patchwerk where movement is useless and then pick up better abilities maybe moving further down the UH side so you have your ghoul and a bit more damage....is that optimal?? probably not but it isnt unplayable.

    The blood tree has similar choices between a defensive build or a healing build. Blizzard is giving choices and yes some choices are idiotic but if you take them then that is on you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    the interrupts are optional along with most CC and that is 100% fine. I thought players had a problem with blizzard not giving meaningful choice but here you literally choose between an interrupt/CC or (in the case of a DK) gaining 5% haste in your death and decay

    - - - Updated - - -

    frost can have an obliterate build or a heavy aoe DW build
    I think this is awesome. Sure you can have a bad build. But bad players will always be bad, most players will always copy/paste "optimal" builds and other playera can do some experimenting.
    And as long as you can have, say 5-10 templated you can freely chnage between. Whats the problem? You can play high button - high performance build, heave cc/utility build or a passive/noob/chill build. I love this approach!
    I just hope that blizu is not gonna get convinced by some of these people to flood us with tons of baseline and fill the trees with +1% talents.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Honestly i really dislike the entire new system.
    I tried making builds in the community made calculator and you barely have enough "general talent" points to somewhat stitch your class back together into a semi functional pruned version.

    There is no room for "creativity" since the difference between picking mandatory talents and picking fluff talents is colossal.
    Single role classes will more likely do better (rogues etc) but based on the druid tree its looking bad for hybrids.
    The way it's looking right now (doesn't mean it can't change) is that some classes, especially hybrids, may end up feeling like they did at the start of BfA: extremely underpowered compared to how they felt at the end of Legion due to the massive amount of ability pruning that occurred. That feeling didn't get better for some classes/specs until really late in the gearing process... which could mean the end of the first tier, the end of the last tier, or anywhere in between.

    The problem is Blizz as of late thinks they're creating new things, but they're just reinventing the same wheel poorly. We've had times where both the old talent system and the current talent system felt good for classes/specs at some point, and it had everything to do with the talents themselves either offering legitimate choices or altering gameplay in certain ways. The current Dragonflight talent trees basically just strip away a lot of your abilities and power that you currently get baseline, and you have to talent them back (and you may end up being weaker than you were in Shadowlands minus all the external power systems).

    If the trend doesn't change, there's going to be a lot of people who will not be happy with the new talent trees. And let's be real here: Blizz needs a win for WoW right now, I don't think it can ever recover fully if they have three poorly received expansions in a row.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    I think this is awesome. Sure you can have a bad build. But bad players will always be bad, most players will always copy/paste "optimal" builds and other playera can do some experimenting.
    And as long as you can have, say 5-10 templated you can freely chnage between. Whats the problem? You can play high button - high performance build, heave cc/utility build or a passive/noob/chill build. I love this approach!
    I just hope that blizu is not gonna get convinced by some of these people to flood us with tons of baseline and fill the trees with +1% talents.
    i think the trees will be what we get at launch
    i love the idea of some abilities being optional and being able to make certain talent builds

    my hopes for my WW monk:
    ST vs AoE build
    zen med return
    disarm return
    more brews
    old school clones with the new style being a CHOICE
    old chi explosion

  5. #25
    I really believe that lately Blizz has been listening a lot to the community. I like to think of these trees as a prototype of what they can be. That's why I believe this sort of threads are important.

    I also believe a lot more should be made baseline. I think by providing so many talent points, and minimum number of points to move down the tree, people get to have a more or less normal pool of spells. It is just the feeling that is boring - investing is something mandatory. This should be reviewed in my opinion as well.

    On a more positive note, I really like that you can make a more dot based or "big hits" builds in both feral and boomie trees, instead of boring AOE vs ST choices.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    i tested out the talent calculator at mythic trap with a blood dk since that is the closest thing to a class i play and in the general tree you can build in blood/frost for more CC and a defensive OR you can build in UH for a ghoul and increased dps or you can just go full blood. Now you do miss out on some abilities that are currently baseline in these choices like
    interrupt, slow, or a CC but that is only if you completely ignore frost.
    Why do you approach the DK tree this way?

    The DK effectively works like:

    Pick your two row 10 talents. Go as far down on these columns as possible. Any remaining points you have will be placed in the unpicked column.
    Why? Because the unpicked column will always contain one of these three options: (frost) interrupt, icebound fortitude and runic power generation (blood) AMS, AMZ, and movement skill (unholy) three dps options. You then will have three remaining points: two for horn of winter and the strength buff, and one final one that can go in will of necropolis, or into some CC.

    The DK class tree has way too many DPS talents that limit any serious choice you have.

  7. #27
    I don't know how to improve this talent tree because it's 100% what we have right now just in a different layout. There is nothing exciting or unexpected about this, it's as boring as it can get. That you can basically take 90% of all your meaningful choices doesn't make it better as there's no impact at all. I just tried Restoration Druid and not only did I get what I want, I even got more stuff I really didn't need / want, but had spare points.

    I really don't see any sense or use in this new system. It's utterly pointless and just a cosmetic change by making the spell book and the talent rows a singular thing without any differences.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  8. #28
    Would be funny when the raid fight requires interrupts and you have to pick a DPS to force to lose output to get an interrupt. Also i would assume for m+ it will make all healers interrupts mandatory as that means DPS can take more dps options.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Janitor View Post
    It certainly is a stark contrast to their current presentation of classes/specs where they at least try to tell you what your basic rotation is supposed to be. I don't think that will even be possible with the new system.

    Also I agree, pure classes will probably see more benefit here, since their stuff actually makes sense for the other specs to some degree. A full hybrid class like druid is the worst example here, since even the DPS specs are incompatible. Mages, rogues, warlocks and hunters (slightly behind because one is a melee spec) will probably profit the most from the system, followed by DKs, warriors and (healing) priests quite some distance behind wheres hybrids will gain practically nothing.
    Doesn’t necessarily have to be pure classes. For example dh has two specs but both use the same resources. I could certainly see dh tree having some cross synergy. Furthermore having two specs presumably makes the tree much more open then having 4 like druid.
    www.twitch.tv/rtrain

    Free Agent! Looking for Guild for Legion!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rtrain View Post
    Doesn’t necessarily have to be pure classes. For example dh has two specs but both use the same resources. I could certainly see dh tree having some cross synergy. Furthermore having two specs presumably makes the tree much more open then having 4 like druid.
    We will have to see what they do with budget classes like DH. They still have to give them the same amount of talents but with less to draw from. In the case of DH the class doesn't even have that many abilities in the first place, especially havok. I kinda fear we will see alot of boring filler stuff or they will have to coax talents from us for stuff like double jump and gliding.
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Janitor View Post
    We will have to see what they do with budget classes like DH. They still have to give them the same amount of talents but with less to draw from. In the case of DH the class doesn't even have that many abilities in the first place, especially havok. I kinda fear we will see alot of boring filler stuff or they will have to coax talents from us for stuff like double jump and gliding.
    That’s fair, but with two starting points the tree should be more accessible. I didn’t even think of them stripping double jump/glide. That would actually be miserable. I do think there’s enough things to pull from previous expansions for dh at least though. We’ve “lost” things like Radeon’s, chaos blades, soul carver, and nemesis over the year and I figured that’s where they will start. They can also just always steal warlock abilities
    www.twitch.tv/rtrain

    Free Agent! Looking for Guild for Legion!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rtrain View Post
    That’s fair, but with two starting points the tree should be more accessible. I didn’t even think of them stripping double jump/glide. That would actually be miserable. I do think there’s enough things to pull from previous expansions for dh at least though. We’ve “lost” things like Radeon’s, chaos blades, soul carver, and nemesis over the year and I figured that’s where they will start. They can also just always steal warlock abilities
    Hehe, yeah, warlocks can always donate another talent or two.
    As for more accessible, I think it will depend on how they will do it. they could just branch off early intwo 3 or 4 major lines that are les reachable. so I'm less bothered by the accessibility, as that will just follow their overall design, and more what they will put into the tree. I just hope it won't be a bunch of +avoidance and similar stuff. That is already awful in the DK tree and I fear it will be even more prevalent for DH. I'm fully expecting part of the mastery affect to be in that category.
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  13. #33
    I'm not sure how this would have taking any developer more than half a day to draw up. It's basically just take everything which is already there and move it into a new (or old if you consider it being the one from classic) talent grid. There isn't any new mechanic, and about a handful returning ones.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    A lot of the criticism here is about many currently default spells becoming optional talents.

    I dont get this.

    And i hope they indeed stay this course. I hate having many different abilities i use very rarely, if ever. Being able to have 10 buttons total with majority passives is what i want. I started playing demon hunter more and more simply for this fact.

    People who want to min max should be able to but also there should be an option for "passive" builds that will be slightly weaker.

    WoD pruning was one of the best things that happened to this game. But the bloat should be optional.
    The thing is that your rotation will still be balanced around having all those specific abilities. It's not like you're going to be able to say, "Well, I'll just be a Fire Mage but skip Fireblast because that's a button I can do without."

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Why do you approach the DK tree this way?

    The DK effectively works like:

    Pick your two row 10 talents. Go as far down on these columns as possible. Any remaining points you have will be placed in the unpicked column.
    Why? Because the unpicked column will always contain one of these three options: (frost) interrupt, icebound fortitude and runic power generation (blood) AMS, AMZ, and movement skill (unholy) three dps options. You then will have three remaining points: two for horn of winter and the strength buff, and one final one that can go in will of necropolis, or into some CC.

    The DK class tree has way too many DPS talents that limit any serious choice you have.
    Because as I said it's probably the closest to a class I play

    You described essentially the optimal method
    I described the fun method

    Problem is you'll have little Jimmy say the fun way is 100% useless because it isn't what raiders do

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    Because as I said it's probably the closest to a class I play

    You described essentially the optimal method
    I described the fun method

    Problem is you'll have little Jimmy say the fun way is 100% useless because it isn't what raiders do
    The question is, why not design it in a way that both are possible?
    And what is the value of making it possible for someone to not even be functional?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    Because as I said it's probably the closest to a class I play

    You described essentially the optimal method
    I described the fun method

    Problem is you'll have little Jimmy say the fun way is 100% useless because it isn't what raiders do
    It probably won't matter since there's gonna be in-game talent tree loadouts. So we could make a loadout for raiding, pvp, mythic+, open world, or just meme loadouts.

    I think the biggest outrage is that a lot of it isn't just essentials, but there isn't anything new or crazy. The only one I saw that was new was the Mark of the Wild talent making a comeback. It isn't like they're making a new borrowed power system where most of the class/spec stuff is poured into it.. If the talent system is really all we're getting and there's nothing new and just the same stuff we've gotten used to from Legion to Shadowlands then that's the real issue.

    We don't want the same thing over again, we want actual change to the classes or give us something unique to work with... Like giving Blood DKs the choice between the usual interrupt or give us Dark Simulacrum to use in PvE. You can interrupt a spell, or tank the spell but get a copy of it for yourself.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    It probably won't matter since there's gonna be in-game talent tree loadouts. So we could make a loadout for raiding, pvp, mythic+, open world, or just meme loadouts.

    I think the biggest outrage is that a lot of it isn't just essentials, but there isn't anything new or crazy. The only one I saw that was new was the Mark of the Wild talent making a comeback. It isn't like they're making a new borrowed power system where most of the class/spec stuff is poured into it.. If the talent system is really all we're getting and there's nothing new and just the same stuff we've gotten used to from Legion to Shadowlands then that's the real issue.

    We don't want the same thing over again, we want actual change to the classes or give us something unique to work with... Like giving Blood DKs the choice between the usual interrupt or give us Dark Simulacrum to use in PvE. You can interrupt a spell, or tank the spell but get a copy of it for yourself.
    It's not really the same thing again to be fair. You will be able to make talent combinations that you could not make before. There is a lot of potential for new synergies (and the stronger synergies may completely lock talents depending on tuning). The spec tree is not really that problematic; yes it forces some choices when it comes to utility skills but there is a lot of new options to be made there as well.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The thing is that your rotation will still be balanced around having all those specific abilities. It's not like you're going to be able to say, "Well, I'll just be a Fire Mage but skip Fireblast because that's a button I can do without."
    To a degree, maybe. Take ret for example. Sometimes, when i need to push hard i pick the correct talents for the 1 minute build and perforn some crazy burst damage. 90% of the time i go full paasive tho. And thats like 3/4 less active abilities. Its still good enough for 15's or solo content but its chill gameplay.
    I play all 12 classes more or less and i like the ones with the ability to have this simple but alright gameplay. Hate shadow, you cant simplify if you dont want to hide buttons, same with druid etc..
    MM is also a great example. You can go volley, double tap end explosive and perform like a beast. Or you can just take all passive, still perform okay and dont have a headache when doing world quests.
    And dont get me started with DH. Such a pleasure to play this class. It could use some more complexity but not to the detrement of the current easymode playstyle.
    Again. Options!

    I love the 10.0 approach so much. You can go barebones and perform okay, mix talents and be good, or use the "right" path and play competetive.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    To a degree, maybe. Take ret for example. Sometimes, when i need to push hard i pick the correct talents for the 1 minute build and perforn some crazy burst damage. 90% of the time i go full paasive tho. And thats like 3/4 less active abilities. Its still good enough for 15's or solo content but its chill gameplay.
    I play all 12 classes more or less and i like the ones with the ability to have this simple but alright gameplay. Hate shadow, you cant simplify if you dont want to hide buttons, same with druid etc..
    MM is also a great example. You can go volley, double tap end explosive and perform like a beast. Or you can just take all passive, still perform okay and dont have a headache when doing world quests.
    And dont get me started with DH. Such a pleasure to play this class. It could use some more complexity but not to the detrement of the current easymode playstyle.
    Again. Options!

    I love the 10.0 approach so much. You can go barebones and perform okay, mix talents and be good, or use the "right" path and play competetive.
    This is class tree vs spec tree though. Your choice to go more passive has to do with choose passive talents in the ret spec tree in this iteration. THe issue is that you probably can make a build in the class tree that doesn't even have a spender.

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