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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The question is, why not design it in a way that both are possible?
    And what is the value of making it possible for someone to not even be functional?
    can you link a build that would make the player not functional??

    yeah if you are a total mongoloid ya might not invest any talents into the free side of the class tree but in that case i dont feel bad for ya

    as for why design it the way they did it essentially covers the "button bloat" garbage that people have made up and also the "this spec doesnt bring as much utility" because now at least in terms of DK all specs have AMZ. Assuming the trees we have are a similar to the other classes it also means MW will have interrupts again

    the idea that players need blizzard to protect them from making decisions soooo bad that they cant play the game is the same mentality that led to the restrictive systems in 9.0

    heres a build that i literally went out of my way to make as bad as possible and it still works
    https://mythictrap.com/dragonflights...orhck_4puw0g_0
    reasons i can guarantee nobody would actually use a build like this
    1. no capstone talents are chosen
    2. too many active abilities avoided
    3.average iq is higher than a potato

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    This is class tree vs spec tree though. Your choice to go more passive has to do with choose passive talents in the ret spec tree in this iteration. THe issue is that you probably can make a build in the class tree that doesn't even have a spender.
    hey if the kid on the playground wants to pet the rabid dog....let him

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenbolone View Post
    I love the 10.0 approach so much. You can go barebones and perform okay, mix talents and be good, or use the "right" path and play competetive.
    The mistake you seem to be making is assuming that all options are close to one another, just because that's kinda how talents are today.

    In the big trees like this, if you don't pick your core class abilities, you're just going to be miles behind the "proper" builds. It's not going to be close or even "okay".

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The thing is that your rotation will still be balanced around having all those specific abilities. It's not like you're going to be able to say, "Well, I'll just be a Fire Mage but skip Fireblast because that's a button I can do without."
    i mean we cant say it will or wont happen because we have no clue how the mage tree will work
    i guess you could say it is like saying "im gonna make a balance druid but not have starfall i guess?? but even then you can get something like this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    The mistake you seem to be making is assuming that all options are close to one another, just because that's kinda how talents are today.

    In the big trees like this, if you don't pick your core class abilities, you're just going to be miles behind the "proper" builds. It's not going to be close or even "okay".
    it will be for the people choosing that

    seriously its like people have memory holed the last 2 years
    "blizzard needs to save us from bad choices" or idk maybe people can not make the bad choices?

  4. #44
    The new talent system looks like shit. You'll all come to realize it eventually, but its just the same abilities/talents that are already in the game, spread out over 61 talent points - which means oh yes, there will be pruning. Oh ya and its pretty obv which talents are absolute shit and which ones will be mandatory to function as a spec. For rdruid there is literally only 1 free talent point to spend however you want, the rest are all mandatory choices.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    This is class tree vs spec tree though. Your choice to go more passive has to do with choose passive talents in the ret spec tree in this iteration. THe issue is that you probably can make a build in the class tree that doesn't even have a spender.
    Given that the spenders are nearly all spec-specific, i imagine the first spec point will be a spender for each of them.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    it will be for the people choosing that

    seriously its like people have memory holed the last 2 years
    "blizzard needs to save us from bad choices" or idk maybe people can not make the bad choices?
    That wasn't the conversation at all. If you're going to jump in, at least say something that's relevant to what's being discussed.

  7. #47
    New system is awful.

    I don't remember which Xpack it was that did it, but at some point, they just arbitrarily decided to take away tons of druid abilities, and only give SOME of them back as "either this, or that" talents, weakening the entire class as a result.

    Blizzard has no idea how to BLIZZARD anymore..
    If we could all sit and talk without demonizing one another and attempt to understand the opposite point of view, the collective world would be a better place. Mental bigotry is the worst of all.

  8. #48
    I only speak in regards to the resto tree as I played this spec a ton on high level. Too many baseline things put into the tree. Far too few interesting choices from the past though I like that a few new things have been implemented like the 100% faster hots talent. However it has a 45 sec cooldown which seems far too low.
    Where is the general genesis talent back from MoP? How about the old mushroom build where you could stack healing on it and making it burst? Basically the shaman cloud burst totem. These kinds of builds I expected, not current iterations rehashed in a worse way since we are more limited.
    People need to remember that this is all we get for DF. No legendaries, no covenants, no conduits, etc.
    And for that the talent trees are far too limiting and uncreative. I also expected a lot more completely new stuff similar to Legion.

    DKs got it even worse btw.

  9. #49
    How does this once again feel like fking illusion choice..

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    The new talent system looks like shit. You'll all come to realize it eventually, but its just the same abilities/talents that are already in the game, spread out over 61 talent points - which means oh yes, there will be pruning. Oh ya and its pretty obv which talents are absolute shit and which ones will be mandatory to function as a spec. For rdruid there is literally only 1 free talent point to spend however you want, the rest are all mandatory choices.
    Exactly, besides you have to follow a path. For example some people went hypemodus when some one said petless unholy... yea.. thats not exactly how it works.

    Smoke and mirros guys, get ready. Qq whining, this is being realistic, many are not new here and will discover it eventually, some newly added talents will be the ones you already know as well.

  10. #50
    After reviewing the talent trees for Druids, I feel like the major problem I have with it is that there is so little difference than what we have right now. You have the option to drop some things you have now to pick up a few things you don't, but for the most part you will be as powerful at 70 as you are at 60 (at least in the sense of options). They rolled the legendaries and soulbinds into the tree to some degree and are letting you pick what you want, which isn't bad, but it does feel like we are gaining 10 levels to simply get back to where we were at 60.

    One of the biggest issues I have is that I see talents that gives us small % boosts to damage/healing/stamina/certain skills, but without seeing how our spells are, the most likely thing to assume is that our spells will be nerfed so that these bonuses only bring it back up to where we were. Perfect example, a talent for Bear that gives:

    Reinforced Fur: Ironfur increases armor by an additional 4% and Barkskin reduces damage by an additional 5%.

    Does that mean Barkskin is going to give a Bear that takes this talent 25% DR, or is Barkskin going to be 15% DR for all Druids and 20% for Bears? Given the rest of the way these trees look, my assumption is that Barkskin is going to get nerfed for all Druids.

    The easiest way to see this is the Stamina increases in the Druid/Bear and DK/Blood trees..... if these %s were going to be ON TOP of what we have now, then they would be vastly overpowered. That plus the fact that alot of the wording is so similar to passives we have now means that they are going to REMOVE the bonuses passively and force us to spec to get these (or not get them which is just a flat nerf).

    This means that most of these % increases or "3 seconds more of Rejuv" will likely be TAKEN from our spells at a base level, only to be given back IF you talent for it.


    I looked through the tree for Druid/Bear and basically found 3 honest "additions" in the druid tree, and a few talents to buff up Moonfire in the bear tree. Rage of the Sleeper is nice and all bears remember it fondly, but looking at the tree you are going to have to give up a lot to get it.

    Otherwise its all "stuff taken from what we have now and 'given' back to us in talents". This feels bad as all our spells are going to feel nerfed and weaker until we talent to bring them (mostly) back to the level we have now.



    Hell, I'd almost prefer to have borrowed power back...... or developers who actually built the game these leeches are destroying.



    List of "new" things in the trees. Basically anything new or something we don't normally end up with now.

    DRUID

    Row 3
    Improved Frenzied Regeneration [NNF]: Frenzied Regeneration and Barkskin increase all healing received by 20%.

    Row 7

    Ursoc’s Endurance [NNF]: When you use Barkskin or Survival Instincts, absorb a small amount of damage over 8 seconds.

    Row 8

    Lycara’s Teachings [NNF]: You gain [1%/2%/3%] of a stat based on your current form.

    No Form: Haste
    Cat Form: Critical Strike
    Bear Form: Versatility
    Moonkin Form: Mastery

    Row 10

    Furor: When you shift into a form you haven't been in for 20 sec, abilities cost no Rage, Energy, Astral Power, or Mana for 4 seconds.

    Nature's Vigil: For 20 sec, all single-target healing and damage spells and abilities also heal a nearby friendly target based on the amount done, 20% for heals, 40% for damage spells. 1.5 min cooldown.



    BEAR

    Guardian Row 4

    Ursoc's Endurance: Increases the duration of Barkskin and Ironfur by 1 seconds.

    Gory Fur: Mangle has a 15% chance to reduce the Rage cost of your next Ironfur by 25%.

    Guardian Row 5

    Scintillating Moonlight: Moonfire reduces damage dealt to you by [2/4]%. Two Rank Talent. - BIG MAYBE, if we lose 4% DR and have to get it back with this its a nerf.

    Guardian Row 6

    Twin Moonfire: Moonfire deals 20% increased damage and also hits another nearby enemy within 15 yds of the target.

    Guardian Row 7

    Front of the Pack: Increases your movement speed by [5/10]%. Stampeding Roar’s radius and duration are increased by [15/30]%. Two Rank Talent.

    Guardian Row 8

    Elune's Favored: While in Bear From, you deal 30% increased Arcane damage, and are healed for 30% of all Arcane damage done.

    Circle of Life and Death: Your damage over time effects deal their damage in 25% less time, and your healing over time effects in 15% less time.

    Choice Node:

    Guardian of Elune: Mangle increases the duration of your next Ironfur by 2 sec, or the healing of your next Frenzied Regeneration by 20%.
    After the Wildfire: Each time you spend 200 Rage, you heal nearby allies for 3% of your maximum health. - A rarely taken talent and a new talent that doesn't look very powerful.

    Guardian Row 9

    Pulverize: A devastating blow that consumes 2 stacks of your Thrash on the target to deal Physical damage and reduce the damage they deal to you by 35% for 10 seconds. -Rarely taken, so I included it.

    Guardian Row 10

    Improved Incarnation and Convoke [NNF]: Shifting out of Incarnation before it expires ends the effect and refunds a portion of its cooldown. Convoke the Spirits has an increased chance to use an exceptional spell or ability.

    Rage of the Sleeper: Unleashes the rage of Ursoc for 10 sec, preventing 25% of all damage you take and reflecting Nature damage back at your attackers. While active, you are immune to loss of control effects.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    That wasn't the conversation at all. If you're going to jump in, at least say something that's relevant to what's being discussed.
    You: you have to choose these core abilities or you'll be so bad it won't be OK

    Me: the people making those choices will be fine with the function and performance. Blizzard restrictions on choices are bad as we've seen from shadowlands

    You: that's not the discussion

    I'm sorry I thought the fact Blizzard restrictions led to less customization of game play because players require handholding was a bad thing
    Last edited by Forum Man; 2022-06-07 at 11:15 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    You: you have to choose these core abilities or you'll be so bad it won't be OK

    Me: the people making those choices will be fine with the function and performance. Blizzard restrictions on choices are bad
    No, the discussion was whether or not foregoing core abilities would allow you to be only "slightly weaker". Which is almost certainly not the case, choosing "+2% damage" over a core ability isn't going to be comparable at all.

    (That's assuming you can even really build that poorly, which I'm not 100% certain of. But the concept stands.)

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    After reviewing the talent trees for Druids, I feel like the major problem I have with it is that there is so little difference than what we have right now. You have the option to drop some things you have now to pick up a few things you don't, but for the most part you will be as powerful at 70 as you are at 60 (at least in the sense of options). They rolled the legendaries and soulbinds into the tree to some degree and are letting you pick what you want, which isn't bad.
    I agree that the lack of new stuff sucks but personally kinda like the new mix and match

    Depending on the class tree I think it will be fun to just ignore some things that are currently baseline. My DK can be a wheelchair in exchange for more utility
    My druid can have innervate no matter the spec
    I can have a melee balance druid

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    No, the discussion was whether or not foregoing core abilities would allow you to be only "slightly weaker". Which is almost certainly not the case, choosing "+2% damage" over a core ability isn't going to be comparable at all.

    (That's assuming you can even really build that poorly, which I'm not 100% certain of. But the concept stands.)
    I think the closest I saw to that was a balance druid build without sunfire and starsurge (idk what kinda core ability isn't granted immediately) which you have to literally go out of your way to avoid and cut off other choices so it's not
    You ignore a core ability for one random talent.

    The concept relies on a core ability being able to be ignored but in reality it is literally impossible because in order to get talents that rely on a core ability you need to unlock the core ability

    Hypotheticals are nice but don't say the system doesn't work based on that

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    No, the discussion was whether or not foregoing core abilities would allow you to be only "slightly weaker". Which is almost certainly not the case, choosing "+2% damage" over a core ability isn't going to be comparable at all.

    (That's assuming you can even really build that poorly, which I'm not 100% certain of. But the concept stands.)
    Check the calculator. You pretty much have to spend 1/3 to 1/2 of your points in off-spec talents in the class tree.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    (That's assuming you can even really build that poorly, which I'm not 100% certain of. But the concept stands.)
    You should meet some of the people I've raided with in my fifteen years of WoW.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You should meet some of the people I've raided with in my fifteen years of WoW.
    I've seen people literally use every single ability in their book as part of their rotation. Including dispels and such. No idea what they expected that to do, but i imagine they never bothered to read the tooltips anyway.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I've seen people literally use every single ability in their book as part of their rotation. Including dispels and such. No idea what they expected that to do, but i imagine they never bothered to read the tooltips anyway.
    Hey, at least they used abilities!

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey, at least they used abilities!
    I've also seen people somehow do less damage than they should have if they just stood there and autoattacked... or in the case of hunters, watched their pets do so. I don't even know how they managed that.

  19. #59
    I redesigned the Restoration druid talent tree, removed all core spec spells, and added new/redesigned talents. Let me know what you guys think. All descriptions for each talent can be found on my original post at https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ments_53791864

    Last edited by Eluxe; 2022-06-11 at 05:48 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Eluxe View Post
    I checked your original post and I really liked your design ideas. Overall I think its a great way to improve the current talent tree, while majorly keeping the same design philosophy.

    I think there are a lot of talent combinations that might be overpowered, but since you can't choose them all it might be okay. I did not tinker with the talent points.

    I really liked the Well of Existence idea. I'm not sure if it is what you intended but I pictured it sort of a Holy Priest's Lightwell, but that only the druid has access to it as it empowers the next healing spells. I also saw it as a possible limitation in mobile fights/pvp as you would need to stand close to it to gain its effect. But I think this is a positive thing. You get a powerful tool, but you are limited by your positioning. It gives room to be outplayed and for a good druid to place the well strategically.

    I don't mind the Nourish redesign, however I always thought that a possible "casting" resto druid build could be a thing if tuned properly. Although it is just underwhelming at the moment, I like to have different design options that drastically change the way you play your spec.

    One thing I would criticize both yours and Blizz's tree are the AoE vs ST healing options, where you clearly pick one over the other depending on the content you're doing. I would much rather have options that could be interesting for both scenarios. This is mostly related to the Wild Growth spell and respective talents. As such I thought of a possible Wild Growth talent that would go as follows:

    Focused Growth (1/1) [Dead-end talent]: Wild Growth is now targetable and its contribution towards Mastery is reduced by 50%. When less than 5 targets are within 15 yards of your target, the reminiscent healing over time effects will be added to the main target.

    This talent would have several potential consequences: It could become an important single target healing spell on isolated targets (this could be very interesting in a PvP, M+ and even e.g. to heal tanks in a raid scenario). However it would have to be properly used. In a raiding scenario it would probably be less effective for aoe healing as it would not add to the Mastery bonus healing as much. In pvp it could serve as an extra Dispel shield (as it would add up to 5 different small HoTs on the target). And most of all, all wild growth related talents would be much more versatile and not restricted to AoE healing.

    Current Wild Growth affecting talents from your talent tree:
    -Improved Wild Growth [NNF]: Wild Growth heals 1 additional target.
    -Improved Tranquility and Wild Growth [NNF]: Increases healing done by Tranquility and Wild Growth based on the current health of the target. Lower heal targets are healed for more.
    -Unstoppable Growth: Wild Growth duration increased by 1 sec.

    Although it has a reduced Mastery effect on AoE scenarios, if you get all 5 (or 6 if talented) Wild Growths on a single target, it would be a very large healing boost from Mastery. In such a case maybe the current Nourish spell would be an interesting option.

    All in all, regardless of the design ideas, it seems that the main critic that 99% of the people in this forum mention is that too many baseline spells made it to the talent trees, making for very unoriginal and unexcited options. A tree such as the one you exemplified is a much better option imo. I think, most of all, Blizzard should listen to this feedback and I believe they will.

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