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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Keilvog View Post
    I really liked the Well of Existence idea. I'm not sure if it is what you intended but I pictured it sort of a Holy Priest's Lightwell, but that only the druid has access to it as it empowers the next healing spells. I also saw it as a possible limitation in mobile fights/pvp as you would need to stand close to it to gain its effect. But I think this is a positive thing. You get a powerful tool, but you are limited by your positioning. It gives room to be outplayed and for a good druid to place the well strategically.
    Well of Existence does not require any placement, it just follows you wherever you go. Once you make it proc it will buff all of your healing including existing HoTs for 10 secs, not just next spells. Well of Existence was an essence ability in BFA and it filled only through overhealing. I heavily modified it and kept the original name. Aim was to make it an active ability(rather than passive which was mostly the case in BFA version) that does not require additional keybind. This talent can be made universal to all healers with slight modifications, i.e tie the proc to spec specific castable spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keilvog View Post
    I don't mind the Nourish redesign, however I always thought that a possible "casting" resto druid build could be a thing if tuned properly. Although it is just underwhelming at the moment, I like to have different design options that drastically change the way you play your spec.
    As for Nourish I had an initial idea of making it a casting spell. But then realized that no one would want to pick that talent if it was a cast because it's only castable on targets above 80% health and you would instantly get interrupted, especially vs RMP where you don't want to cast anything beside HoTs. The idea was to make it heal less than Regrowth or Rejuvenation but provide some protection against big burst damage, when your HoTs won't heal much in a very short time frame.
    Last edited by Eluxe; 2022-06-13 at 02:31 PM.

  2. #62
    Issues with Bear:

    Talents that make sense:

    1) Anything that was a choice in the previous talents (within reason)
    Example: Brambles vs Bristling Fur

    2) New talents that give passive bonuses or interesting changes
    Example:
    Scintillating Moonlight: Moonfire reduces damage dealt to you by [2/4]%. Two Rank Talent.
    Dream of Cenarius: When you take non-periodic damage, you have a chance equal to your critical strike to cause your next Regrowth to be instant, free, and castable in all forms. Cannot occur more than once every 20 seconds.
    Elune's Favored: While in Bear From, you deal 30% increased Arcane damage, and are healed for 30% of all Arcane damage done.

    Talents that don't make sense:

    1) Core spells that you will always take or the base mechanics that make the spec work. If you would NEVER NOT take it then its a bad talent and should be core to the spec.
    Example: Maul, Gore, Improved Bear Form.


    How to improve it:

    Remove talents that every Bear SHOULD take, add them to the spec, and then add in talents that give Bears more ways to specialize in how they deal and mitigate damage. This should be done in minor, general talents at the top of the tree, and branches that allow you to specialize in how you want to play your bear that limit how much you can take by taking passive points to get to the goodies that prevent you from grabbing all of them.

    As a bear, I want the ability to be a tanky meatshield that puts damage out in dot form that rots the target. But if you love massive self healing or Mangle spamming multiple targets, you should be able to be that instead. You should be able to specialize heavily, but at a cost of losing the ability to get points elsewhere that their current talents don't do a good job of.

    I would add 4 branches that would be related to Direct Damage, Damage over Time, Healing, Damage Mitigation. They would have some fluidity, but if you specilize it should force you to give up being great in 1-3 other branches. Rows 1-3 should be relatively passive, with maybe 1-2 general abilities in there but mostly passives that affect spells all bears have but make you choose which ones you want.

    Here is how I would build a tree.... it isn't perfect but I would love trees like this.


    Guardian Druid Talents

    Added Base - Maul, Survival Instincts, Gore, Improved Bear Form
    Improved Bear Form: Bear Form gives an additional 30% stamina. Your Druid spells are now usable in Bear Form.
    Removed - Mangle


    Guardian Row 1

    Mangle: Mangle the target for Physical damage. Generates Rage. 6 sec cooldown.


    Guardian Row 2

    Sharpened Claws: Increases your damage and critical strike chance by [2/4]%. Requires Mangle

    Blood of the Wild God: When in combat, but not in an enemies melee range, heal [2/4]% of your health per second. Requires Mangle


    Guardian Row 3

    Improved Mangle: Mangle deals [15/30]% additional damage against bleeding targets. Requires Sharpened Claws

    Front of the Pack: Increases your movement speed by [5/10]%. Stampeding Roar’s radius and duration are increased by [15/30]%. Requires Sharpened Claws

    Ursoc's Endurance: Increases the duration of Barkskin and Ironfur by [1/2] seconds. Requires Blood of the Wild God

    Reinvigoration: Frenzied Regeneration's healing is increased by [10/20]% and cooldown is reduced by [10/20]%. Requires Blood of the Wild God


    Guardian Row 4

    Pawsitive Outlook: Thrash has a [10/20/30]% chance to trigger an additional Thrash. Requires Improved Mangle

    Fury of Nature: While in Bear From, you deal [10/20/30]% increased Arcane damage. Requires Improved Mangle

    Improved Survival Instincts: Survival Instincts now has 2 charges. Requires Front of the Pack or Ursoc's Endurance

    Innate Resolve: Regrowth and Frenzied Regeneration healing is increased by [6/12/18]% on yourself. Requires Reinvigoration

    Scintillating Moonlight: Moonfire reduces damage dealt to you by [2/4/6]%. Requires Reinvigoration


    Guardian Row 5

    Berserk: Ravage: Go berserk for 15 sec, reducing the cooldowns of Mangle, Thrash, and Growl by 100%. Combines with other Berserk abilities, granting all known Berserk effects while active. Requires Pawsitive Outlook

    Lacerate: Tears into the target, dealing instant bleed damage and making them bleed over 9 sec. This effect stacks up to 5 times on the same target. 3 sec cooldown. Requires Fury of Nature

    Infected Wounds: Mangle and Thrash cause an Infected Wound in the target, reducing their movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. Requires Improved Survival Instincts

    Ursol's Roar: Instantly heals you for 30% of maximum health and increase your maximum health by 30% for 12 sec. 2 min CD. Requires Innate Resolve

    Pulverize: A devastating blow that consumes 2 stacks of your Thrash on the target to deal Physical damage and reduce the damage they deal to you by 35% for 6 seconds. Requires Scintillating Moonlight


    Guardian Row 6

    Vicious Cycle: Mangle increases the damage of your next Maul by [15/25]% and reduces its rage cost by [15/25]%. Stacks up to 3. Requires Berserk: Ravage

    Wide Jaws: Mangle passively hits 2 targets. Abilities that increase the target count for Mangle will gain an additional target. Requires Berserk: Ravage

    Covenant of Claws - Lacerate deals 10% additional damage per stack of Thrash on the target and can be consumed by Pulverize instead of Thrash. Requires Lacerate

    Moonfury: Moonfire deals its full damage over half its duration. Requires Lacerate

    Lunar Beam - Summons a beam of lunar light at your location, dealing Arcane damage and healing you and nearby allies over 8 sec. 45 sec cooldown. Requires Ursol's Roar

    Earthwarden: When you deal direct damage with Thrash, you gain a charge of Earthwarden, reducing the damage of the next auto attack you take by 30%. Earthwarden may have up to 3 charges. Requires Pulverize

    Behemoth: While Pulverize is active, increase your chance to critically strike by 10%. Requires Pulverize


    Guardian Row 7

    Vulnerable Flesh: Maul has an additional [15/30]% chance to critically strike. Requires Vicious Cycle or Wide Jaws

    One Thousand Cuts: Thrash and Lacerate damage over time effects have a [10/20]% chance to deal their damage a second time. Requires Covenant of Claws

    Galactic Guardian: Your damage has a 8% chance to trigger a free automatic Moonfire on that target. When this occurs, gain a charge of Faerie Fire, which deals Astral damage over 12 sec and generates 1 Rage every time it deals damage. Requires Moonfury

    Tranquility : Heals all allies within 40 yards over 8 sec. Healing increased by 100% when not in a raid. Requires Lunar Beam

    Smell of Blood Mangle heals for 10% of the damage it deals. Requires Lunar Beam

    Reinforced Fur Ironfur increases armor by an additional 4% and Barkskin reduces damage by an additional 5%. Requires Earthwarden or Behemoth


    Guardian Row 8

    Berserk: Unchecked Aggression: Go berserk for 15 sec, increasing haste by 15%, reduces the cooldown by 1 minute, and reducing the rage cost of Maul by 10. Combines with other Berserk abilities, granting all known Berserk effects while active. Requires Vulnerable Flesh

    Choice Node: Requires Vulnerable Flesh or One Thousand Cuts
    Blood Frenzy: Thrash also generates 2 Rage each time it deals damage.
    Soul of the Forest: Mangle generates 5 more Rage and deals 25% more damage.

    Silent Swarm - Faerie Fire silences the affected target for 3 sec. Requires Galactic Guardian

    Twin Moonfire: Moonfire deals 20% increased damage and also hits another nearby enemy within 15 yds of the target. Requires Galactic Guardian or Tranquility

    Berserk: Persistence: Go berserk for 15 sec, reducing the cooldown of Frenzied Regeneration by 100% and the cost of Ironfur by 50%. Combines with other Berserk abilities, granting all known Berserk effects while active. Requires Smell of Blood

    Choice Node: Requires Reinforced Fur
    Guardian of Elune: Mangle increases the duration of your next Ironfur by 2 sec, or the healing of your next Frenzied Regeneration by 20%.
    After the Wildfire: Each time you spend 30 Rage, you heal nearby allies for 2% of your maximum health.

    Survival of the Fittest: Reduces the cooldowns of Barkskin and Survival Instincts by 33%. Requires Reinforced Fur


    Guardian Row 9

    Incarnation, Guardian of Ursoc: An improved Bear Form that grants all of your known Berserk effects, causes Mangle to hit up to 3 targets, and increases maximum health by 30%. Lasts 30 seconds. You may freely shapeshift in and out of this improved Bear Form for its duration. Requires Berserk: Unchecked Aggression

    Boiling Blood: Dealing Arcane damage to a target increases Bleed damage taken by [10/20]% for 6 seconds. Dealing Bleed damage to a target increases its Arcane damage taken by [10/20% for 6 seconds. Requires Blood Frenzy or Soul of the Forest

    Deep Cuts: Thrash can stack 1 additional time. Requires Blood Frenzy or Soul of the Forest

    Elune's Favored: While in Bear From, you deal 30% increased Arcane damage, and are healed for 30% of all Arcane damage done. Requires Twin Moonfire

    Choice Node: Requires Berserk: Persistence or Guardian of Elune or After the Wildfire
    Dream of Cenarius: When you take non-periodic damage, you have a chance equal to your critical strike to cause your next Regrowth to be instant, free, and castable in all forms. Cannot occur more than once every 20 seconds.
    Ursoc's Fury: Maul & Thrash grants you an absorb shield for 75% of all damage they deal.

    Choice Node: Requires Survival of the Fittest
    Brambles: Sharp brambles protect you, absorbing and reflecting damage from each attack. While Barkskin is active, the brambles also deal Nature damage to all nearby enemies every 1 seconds.
    Bristling Fur: Bristle your fur, causing you to generate Rage based on damage taken for 8 seconds.


    Guardian Row 10

    Convoke the Spirits: Call upon the Night Fae for an eruption of energy, channeling a rapid flurry of 16 Druid spells and abilities over 4 seconds. You will cast Mangle Ironfur, Moonfire, Wrath, Regrowth, Rejuvenation, Rake, and Thrash on appropriate nearby targets, favoring your current shapeshift form. 1 min cooldown. Requires Incarnation, Guardian of Ursoc

    Choice Node: Requires Boiling Blood
    Untamed Savagery: Increases the damage and radius of Thrash by 25%.
    Rend and Tear: Each stack of Thrash reduces the target's damage to you by 2% and increases your damage to them by 2%.

    Circle of Life and Death: Your damage over time effects deal their damage in 25% less time, and your healing over time effects in 15% less time. Requires Elune's Favored

    Bloodlet: Periodic damage from Thrash heals you for 1% of your maximum health. This effect has a 1 sec internal cooldown. Requires Dream of Cenarius of Ursoc's Fury

    Rage of the Sleeper: Unleashes the rage of Ursoc for 10 sec, preventing 25% of all damage you take and reflecting Nature damage back at your attackers. While active, you are immune to loss of control effects. 1.5 min cooldown. Requires Brambles or Bristling Fur

  3. #63
    Overall the DF general talent tree feels like a bad version of the current SL talent system.

    It would be better if the general talent tree just consisted of the "big" choices divided into tiers, with increased variety (no connecting lines and filler talents).

    The specialization talent tree can continue with its current DF form.

  4. #64
    vanilla->MOP you was getting new skills new talents for EACH class each expansion. NICE Biatchy!

    Legion->SL->DF you getting the very same talents OVER and OVER, and feel like blizz pissing on their game, stale old shit. new skills? nah here your borrowed power shit.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    vanilla->MOP you was getting new skills new talents for EACH class each expansion. NICE Biatchy!

    Legion->SL->DF you getting the very same talents OVER and OVER, and feel like blizz pissing on their game, stale old shit. new skills? nah here your borrowed power shit.
    WoD and Legion had new abilities dude
    if you are gonna screech about no new stuff get your timeline straight

    - - - Updated - - -

    im wondering if a big thing with some people's reaction to these trees is the idea that DF classes will play the same as we do currently in terms of rotation

    i mean especially in terms of a feral druid where the argument is that unless you choose very specific general talents then the spec doesnt work at all which actually takes a lot of work to do and it still works

  6. #66
    Hello again,

    I took my time and also redesigned guardian druid talent tree. Removed almost all baseline guardian abilities and added new talents. Please have a look and tell me what are your thoughts:



    All descriptions for all new/modified talents can be found on my original post at: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ments_53791864

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Eluxe View Post
    All descriptions for all new/modified talents can be found on my original post at: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ments_53791864
    You bearly <--- changed anything. What was the point of redoing talents if you didn't actually redo it?

    Look up a few posts to what I provided..... that is what REDOING the tree looks like.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    You bearly <--- changed anything. What was the point of redoing talents if you didn't actually redo it?

    Look up a few posts to what I provided..... that is what REDOING the tree looks like.
    I added/modified at least 10 talents plus a few repositioning of talents. That roughly means 25% of the talent tree was changed. The rest of the talent tree looks ok in my opinion. It is possible to add/modify more talents, which I might do if I notice any problems or come up with new talents in my mind.
    I don’t see any new or reasonable talent ideas in your post. If you have some great ideas I will surely add them to the talent tree. Bear in my mind that, I look to talent trees from a multiclass player perspective. So my intent is to make talent tree better without bringing overly overpowered abilities that might break the balance among many tank specializations.

    One simple example: You say Improved bear form should provide 30% more health rather than 20% in bear form. What implication might this have how do you think? Let me explain you, it means Blizzard will most probably nerf your base armor to bring guardians into balance with other tank specializations. So in the end, you will have more stamina but you will be hard to heal and as a result waste healers' mana.
    In my opinion taking 10% less damage and having 20% more stamina is better, which is already in my modified talent tree descriptions.
    Almost every talent suggestion you have provided has some design problems. If you want to make a good talent tree you have to see all implications each talent might have.
    Last edited by Eluxe; 2022-06-16 at 05:18 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Eluxe View Post
    Hello again,

    I took my time and also redesigned guardian druid talent tree. Removed almost all baseline guardian abilities and added new talents. Please have a look and tell me what are your thoughts:
    You're both missing the basic idea of the new design. It's not a mistake the baseline abilities are in there, but they also aren't really missable. Talents are intended to provide everything past level ten, except for non-combat utility like resurrection or buffs and some ultra-niche stuff that'd be hard to justify ever taking.

    So really, what you're doing is breaking the design, not fixing it.
    Is it a good design? Maybe not, maybe it is. But your changes don't fit in.

  10. #70
    I'm not a big fan of the interrupt in the talent tree, for several reasons:

    1) I don't know if it's there for all healing classes, but I think Shaman being the only healer with an interrupt is a good choice. Maybe 1 more is fine, but I think it's fine that healers have a diverse skill set, and giving all healers the ability to interrupt (while it may seem nice at first), only means, that encounters (especially in m+) WILL be balanced toward the fact that you have one more person who can interrupt. Right now, having a healer interrupt is a nice bonus, but if all healers can interrupt, they'll balance around that.

    2) While I don't have huge problems with baseline abilities having to be specced in the talent tree, I think such abilities should be at the very top of the tree. An interrupt is such an essential tool that (for m+) literally everyone running semi-high keys will have to spec for it. That means, restoration druids don't have 31 class talent points, they have 24, as they have to spend SEVEN points on an interrupt that will essentialy be mandatory.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    I'm not a big fan of the interrupt in the talent tree, for several reasons:

    1) I don't know if it's there for all healing classes, but I think Shaman being the only healer with an interrupt is a good choice. Maybe 1 more is fine, but I think it's fine that healers have a diverse skill set, and giving all healers the ability to interrupt (while it may seem nice at first), only means, that encounters (especially in m+) WILL be balanced toward the fact that you have one more person who can interrupt. Right now, having a healer interrupt is a nice bonus, but if all healers can interrupt, they'll balance around that.

    2) While I don't have huge problems with baseline abilities having to be specced in the talent tree, I think such abilities should be at the very top of the tree. An interrupt is such an essential tool that (for m+) literally everyone running semi-high keys will have to spec for it. That means, restoration druids don't have 31 class talent points, they have 24, as they have to spend SEVEN points on an interrupt that will essentialy be mandatory.
    Priests don't have an interrupt. At all. Druids are forced into Cat or Bear and charge into melee when they use theirs, so it might not be smart to do so if you're a healer or ranged DD and definitely will interrupt your rotation (sometimes, even as Guardian this is annoying as interrupting will mess up positioning). Paladin and Monk would probably the easiest to pull off an extra interrupt with, and Shaman already have it anyway, so if balancing would be done around that, they'd have to do now already.

    You also have to spend points offspec regardless of whether you want to, so the cost isn't nearly as prohibitive as you seem to think.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Priests don't have an interrupt. At all. Druids are forced into Cat or Bear and charge into melee when they use theirs, so it might not be smart to do so if you're a healer or ranged DD and definitely will interrupt your rotation (sometimes, even as Guardian this is annoying as interrupting will mess up positioning). Paladin and Monk would probably the easiest to pull off an extra interrupt with, and Shaman already have it anyway, so if balancing would be done around that, they'd have to do now already.

    You also have to spend points offspec regardless of whether you want to, so the cost isn't nearly as prohibitive as you seem to think.
    As of now, resto druids also don't have an interrupt. But if they had, going into cat to interrupt would not be a problem for them most of the time. Resto druids are cat weaving a lot anyway.

    I don't have a problem with spending talent points for off-spec abilities. I have a problem with spending six talent points on useless talents, to be able to spend one talent point for a real ability, that (for m+) literally everyone is going to have to take.

    If you think interrupts are not worth it because they interrupt your rotation (ie. you have to cancel a cast every 20-30 seconds) or because they reposition you, then I don't know what to tell you.

  13. #73
    It is clearly another 1 expansion temporary system designed for dragonflight’s level 70 chars (talent points).

    In future expansion, when we get more levels and talent points, it will inevitably become bloated and meaningless, when this kind of tree are expanded unlimitedly, the same reason why it failed before and was removed.

    This new talent trees will be 100% removed after DF and replaced by another talent system. 100%

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    It is clearly another 1 expansion temporary system designed for dragonflight’s level 70 chars (talent points).

    In future expansion, when we get more levels and talent points, it will inevitably become bloated and meaningless, when this kind of tree are expanded unlimitedly, the same reason why it failed before and was removed.

    This new talent trees will be 100% removed after DF and replaced by another talent system. 100%
    This talent system is staying for at least 1, maybe 2 expansions after DF.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You're both missing the basic idea of the new design. It's not a mistake the baseline abilities are in there, but they also aren't really missable. Talents are intended to provide everything past level ten, except for non-combat utility like resurrection or buffs and some ultra-niche stuff that'd be hard to justify ever taking.

    So really, what you're doing is breaking the design, not fixing it.
    Is it a good design? Maybe not, maybe it is. But your changes don't fit in.
    I see you have made a total of almost 31k posts over 14 years. It's not hard to imagine how many of those posts are to the point. Before 9.2.5 went live I had 2 posts regarding tier sets for Ret paladins and Destro warlocks. Both of those tier sets had issues that I clearly indicated and both were fixed in 9.2.5. I don't know if it was my comments that made Blizzard change/redesign tier sets or not. But I am sure my comments were to the point.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    This talent system is staying for at least 1, maybe 2 expansions after DF.
    There is 0 chance it will stay when people realize it is a strictly downgrade from the current simple and effective talent systems.

    The talent trees will be disaster.

  17. #77
    The builds basically force you to take basic rotational abilities. The only way to skip them is if you deliberately go something stupid like resto/boomkin as a feral druid. That's on you chief.

  18. #78
    the more i try using the DF talent tree for druids the worse it looks & works.

    it would need significant design changes to just break even with the current talent system.

    the death knight talents make a bit more sense but even there the filler talents choke the general tree completely.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Honestly i really dislike the entire new system.
    I tried making builds in the community made calculator and you barely have enough "general talent" points to somewhat stitch your class back together into a semi functional pruned version.

    There is no room for "creativity" since the difference between picking mandatory talents and picking fluff talents is colossal.
    Single role classes will more likely do better (rogues etc) but based on the druid tree its looking bad for hybrids.
    Yup, it'll pretty much suffer from the exact same issues as the original talent tree.

    Overall though I still think it's going to work well. It's not like the current system is really any good either. For 90% of all people they never change their talents either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    There is 0 chance it will stay when people realize it is a strictly downgrade from the current simple and effective talent systems.

    The talent trees will be disaster.
    Or 100% chance it will stay. What a pointless thing to even mention ngl, this isn't a speculation thread and you aren't Blizzard.
    No one cares about your supposed prediction here.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Or 100% chance it will stay. What a pointless thing to even mention ngl, this isn't a speculation thread and you aren't Blizzard.
    No one cares about your supposed prediction here.
    Such a pointless reply. Forums are for people to express their opinions.

    I just speak what I think. And why do you think that I care if no one cares about my words?

    You konw that you don't need anyone else's care or attention to have your own opinion, right?

    Ridiculous. lol

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