Dragonflight Druid Talents - Add your constructive feedback

[Keilvog]

I am really excited about the new talent system.
I believe this phase is crucial for us to work together in providing constructive feedback to help trim some things that we think would improve it.

As a resto druid enthusiast, here’s my short list of the most important changes I would do.
I invite you to write down your suggestions too.

I also posted this on EU wow forum.

Druid Tree

• Soothe and Hibernate should just be baseline for all specs. They are so situational that it feels like a waste to invest in them. While at the same time they should exist as they are very typical druid spells. I would even add Remove Curse to these two as baseline.
  
• From what I undestand, Rake stun from stealth only happens if you’re feral. That’s a bummer, for pvp and pve, I like to be useful with an extra stun. I would either make it baseline or provide a possibility to update it down the tree.
  Primal Fury seems a little underwhelming for anything but feral spec. I love the theoretical hibridity it brings but I would change it for improved Rake for example.
  
• I am not a fan of automatic get out of jail free cards such as Well-Honed instincts. I would simply replace this for something else that could be used offensively (I feel that there’s already many defensive talents e.g. renewal).

Restoration Tree

• Too many not-exciting options, especially in the first 75% of the tree. Probably because there are too few baseline spells. Also, many of the standard spells are split, which makes us spend points on things that we used to have and are not very exciting (e.g. Ironbark has three cells and a total of 5 points to get what we now already have).
  
• Convoke in resto spec - make it cast Starsurge and Ferocious Bite (MMarkers style). Otherwise it loses the versatility it brings in Shadowlands. Have the improved version be similar to Unity (less cooldown and less channeling time), instead of chance for exceptional spells which will probably be only possible to cast in a PvE scenario.
  
• Wild growth seems to be in the Druid talent tree, however there are a bunch of upgrades you can get in the resto tree - maybe it should be baseline?
  
• I feel like there are too many obvious AoE vs ST choices - I think it should be more balanced between talents that affect both aspects so we don’t have only a AoE spec and a ST spec, but instead have different playstyle possibilities (e.g. more damage with less healing, more dots vs more direct healing with Regrowth and Nourish, faster dots vs longer dots, etc). This would make us make choices between the playstyle we want and not between the content we’re going to do.

[Aleksej89]

Honestly i really dislike the entire new system.
I tried making builds in the community made calculator and you barely have enough "general talent" points to somewhat stitch your class back together into a semi functional pruned version.

There is no room for "creativity" since the difference between picking mandatory talents and picking fluff talents is colossal.
Single role classes will more likely do better (rogues etc) but based on the druid tree its looking bad for hybrids.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Single role classes will more likely do better (rogues etc) but based on the druid tree its looking bad for hybrids.

Druid is probably facing the worst issues in the first place, since it somehow has to have 4 specs in the general part. Even if Feral and Guardian are already just barely saperated, it still stretches the tree further and makes actual hybrid builds pretty much non-viable from the get go. At best I can see some meme builds for PvP where you ignore all decent stuff and just troll with CC by forsaken all throughput and defense.

On the other hand I have to wonder how DH/"evoker" will play out. They have only 2 specs each and they will need to pad alot to have people waste talents.

[Nymrohd]

Druid is probably facing the worst issues in the first place, since it somehow has to have 4 specs in the general part. Even if Feral and Guardian are already just barely saperated, it still stretches the tree further and makes actual hybrid builds pretty much non-viable from the get go. At best I can see some meme builds for PvP where you ignore all decent stuff and just troll with CC by forsaken all throughput and defense.

I honestly find the design concept of the class tree problematic. They moved the spellbook into a talent tree. So much should remain baseline. A spec should at least be able to function even with bad talent choices. I don't think it will with this system.

[Khaza-R]

I honestly find the design concept of the class tree problematic. They moved the spellbook into a talent tree. So much should remain baseline. A spec should at least be able to function even with bad talent choices. I don't think it will with this system.

Pretty much my issue as well. Most of your points will just be spent retaining what you currently have/need. Feels like there's only a couple of actual choices here. As another poster mentioned, it might be a lot more interesting for classes like rogues, hunter, and warriors but for hybrids the "class tree" seems very boring and underwhelming.

[klaps_05]

The biggest gripe i have with the new system is, there will be a lot of trade offs. You can essentially only get 60% or so of the talents and then you are limited to which 60%, as in you cant just take all abilities in those 60%. Then you have choices and required perks complexity. Then all of this is doubled for the class spec which is even bigger criminal.

And the expectations are for this to be balanced between specs/classes/tier sets, when blizz is struggling to balance current ultra simple talents? Sharing the talents with people means they are 90% final, which is just another reminder of the covenants and their "balancing".

Playing build-a-spellbook just doesnt feel good. Move all abilities back to spellbook and only add talents which enhance those spellbooks. This way your class can actually function, baseline. Then you get perks based on your content.

[Skayth]

Here is the thing, go play classic (hell dont even use talents), and see all the baseline abilities and then look at at what they are giving as baseline abilities here....

Legit soothe and hibernate should be base like, along with quite a few others. But seeing as how they pruned quite abit over the years, expecting back what was taken isnt feasible(sadly) so they are cutting things and making them bullshit talents.

No, it's not the right direction. I think its cause you don't go back to a trainer anymore to buy abilities now, so it's now an interactive game on what abilities you want to buy or personalize, when in reality its shit. Do druids really want to put a fucking point into soothe or hibernate?

What the basic tree should be is basically things you want for your main talent tree (let's say resto for this) and off section (similar to dipping points into feral or balance back before mop) like how they made moonkin form a basic talent . That is a very good thing. Hibernate and soothe is not

[Gumble]

I made what I would use for Feral, Bear, and Owl.

Looking at these "builds" I feel like they are basically just "what I have now" reshuffled where I gain 1-2 spells or talents, but lose a few things I have now.

I don't feel like we are GAINING power in this system, just rehashing what we already have, but with less power to it.

Pre-patch we will all feel weaker than we are now, and grow to 70 and get back to the level we are at right now, just with less stats and scaling.

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Honestly, I wish we got our base spells back PLUS a few that have been pruned over the years, THEN the talent trees gave us real choice into how we wanted to build our character, not just "getting stuff back we already had last xpac".

As a Bear, I want Lacerate back, I want Faerie Fire, I want Symbiosis.

I want to be able to spec into being able to apply Sunfire while in bear form. I want to be able to SPEC into being a Mangle spamming Beserk bear or a DOT based rot Bear. I want to CHOOSE how I play and be able to enhance that side of my character. I DON'T want to have to spend most of my points just getting back what I already have. They have put a tiny bit of that in, with being able to enhance your Moonfire, but the cost of doing so is missing out on a huge portion of what we CURRENTLY have.

I want to feel like my adventures have made my character stronger. This talent system is NOT doing that.

[Alecazam]

Way too many baseline abilities moved to talents. Wanting to keep the same class complexity as shadowlands is a mistake, classes are too simple. Class tree should all be utility choices: CC vs mobility vs sustain/defensives. Spec tree should be about choosing a playstyle, for example feral speccing for big bleeds or big bites. That's how you get real choices.

[Aleksej89]

i tried making some resto spec that takes some guardian general talents but its hideously sub-optimal.

you lose on so many strong resto (healer) general talents and you take so many useless feral/guardian talents just to reach that one or two guardian talents that MIGHT be useful here or there.

the whole druid general talent tree provides no flexibility ("creativity") since you have to sink pretty much the whole 31 general talent points getting crucial talents for your role (from the pov of a healer at least).

[Gumble]

i tried making some resto spec that takes some guardian general talents but its hideously sub-optimal.

you lose on so many strong resto (healer) general talents and you take so many useless feral/guardian talents just to reach that one or two guardian talents that MIGHT be useful here or there.

the whole druid general talent tree provides no flexibility ("creativity") since you have to sink pretty much the whole 31 general talent points getting crucial talents for your role (from the pov of a healer at least).

Say goodbye to Cat-weaving..

[Revamp Man]

Oh my God guys are you saying making a hybrid build isn't as good as talenting for the soec you choose??? No way

It's almost like they even said bad builds are possible

[Skayth]

Oh my God guys are you saying making a hybrid build isn't as good as talenting for the soec you choose??? No way

It's almost like they even said bad builds are possible

There is a a difference between a sub optimal builds and dumb talents that are there to merely waste you points into.

Let's take a look at locks from classic, in demonology tree you have quite a few different talents just to giving the player more stamina. I wonder why? Well funny enough in end game, they became useful because they became a tank and needed the extra stam.

How about shamans. Well with shamans you can use shields, and there were defensive options in the enhancement tree. Crazy idea of playing it as a tank became a fast idea. Tank shaman became a think and was fun. Sadly after wotlk it was killed for good. But these talents that were not mandatory and off the beaten path inorder to get something else.


What these talents are doing is merely taking away basic abilities that All specs should have and not adding back dumb talents such as stam or defence with shield. It's quite literally the opposite. There are some good things that are in the talent tree I do approve of, but there are also some horrible decisions

[Cosmic Janitor]

I honestly find the design concept of the class tree problematic. They moved the spellbook into a talent tree. So much should remain baseline. A spec should at least be able to function even with bad talent choices. I don't think it will with this system.

I mean, in general I agree with you, though I have to admit I have played games in the past where the skill (!) tree was like what WoW is trying to do right now. So I kind of get what they are trying to do here, I just think it's pointless from the point where WoW is right now already. The system is no significant improvement over the current stale system, at best it's a repackaging which will have some winners that come out with slightly better builds (>100% of the current system) and some loser that will come out with less (<100% of the current system).

It's simply not very interesting to have to get all your baseline skills anymore, especially with the heavy meta driven gameplay of WoW. There is no place for ultra niche gameplay. We already had a system where we learn skills each level and it would have only been interesting to have trees back if they allowed for more customization of those skills. Instead we spend about a third of our talent points to buy back skills we already had, we spend about another third to buy back the passives we already had and about one last third on the talents we currently employ. Somwhere within the margin of error of "about a third" is where the "new" happens with this system and it isn't even actually new stuff, as practically all of it is just recycled borrowed power of the last 3 expansions. Maybe some novel talent Blizzard killed a couple of expansions ago. That they couldn't even be arsed to at least put in new capstone talents is probably what get's me the most though. It would have been the most basic thing to come out door swinging, instead we get this minimalist reshuffling as their stated goal.

There is also the angle, as mentioned by someone in one of these threads, that choices like these are interesting if you have to pick an element or a weapon type in an RPG, not if all it boils down to is picking just the bigger numbers according to a guide. Even for specializing into the individual aspects of the specs the new system doesn't do much, as you still have to take filler talents here and there to get to the stuff you want and this kind of flavor picking will simply not be viable for the overwhelming amout of players that simply chase the strong meta anyway, so that they are even allowed to participate in endgame activities.

[Nymrohd]

I do want to see how it will work for a class like rogue that has a stronger class over spec identity. Could be e.g. that in Class tree you might want to go deep Assassin and then spec Subtlety because they use very similar abilities only one side has better throughput or resource regen in the class tree. I don't think that potential exists in that many of the classes (not much in most hybrids, maybe Enhancement with Elemental); e.g. mage is really spec focused unless they rez frostfire in the class tree. But Warlock and maybe hunter might also get some interesting hybrid builds.

Druid though was probably the worst class to show first? I mean druids probably have more abilities than Demon Hunters and Evokers will have combined. If they wanted to move the majority of the spellbook in the tree, ofc the druid tree would look bloated and problematic.

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Oh my God guys are you saying making a hybrid build isn't as good as talenting for the soec you choose??? No way

It's almost like they even said bad builds are possible

I think the issue here is that bad builds will be far, far more bad than they have ever been before. You'll be able to spec e.g. feral and end up not even having an actual rotation on the spec that at different times in the game had more things to juggle than any two other specs. Cataclysm and then MoP worked by taking the talent tree concept and reducing it to more meaningful choices. These trees are effectively deconstructing the entire class.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I do want to see how it will work for a class like rogue that has a stronger class over spec identity. Could be e.g. that in Class tree you might want to go deep Assassin and then spec Subtlety because they use very similar abilities only one side has better throughput or resource regen in the class tree.

I think you can kinda see that already in the DK tree, with unholy and frost.

[Nymrohd]

I think you can kinda see that already in the DK tree, with unholy and frost.

True, there is a lot of difference in resource regen. You might go deep in a different spec than the one you pick. And that could change during the expansion as well; maybe early on you will pick the resource regen heavy spec in the class tree and later on just switch to throughput, especially in classes that have specs that scale differently with gear like e.g. Arms and Fury.

The one I really am curious about is Priest. It's the only one where you'll have two specs of the same role that are not dps.

[Trenbolone]

A lot of the criticism here is about many currently default spells becoming optional talents.

I dont get this.

And i hope they indeed stay this course. I hate having many different abilities i use very rarely, if ever. Being able to have 10 buttons total with majority passives is what i want. I started playing demon hunter more and more simply for this fact.

People who want to min max should be able to but also there should be an option for "passive" builds that will be slightly weaker.

WoD pruning was one of the best things that happened to this game. But the bloat should be optional.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think the issue here is that bad builds will be far, far more bad than they have ever been before. You'll be able to spec e.g. feral and end up not even having an actual rotation on the spec that at different times in the game had more things to juggle than any two other specs. Cataclysm and then MoP worked by taking the talent tree concept and reducing it to more meaningful choices. These trees are effectively deconstructing the entire class.

It certainly is a stark contrast to their current presentation of classes/specs where they at least try to tell you what your basic rotation is supposed to be. I don't think that will even be possible with the new system.

Also I agree, pure classes will probably see more benefit here, since their stuff actually makes sense for the other specs to some degree. A full hybrid class like druid is the worst example here, since even the DPS specs are incompatible. Mages, rogues, warlocks and hunters (slightly behind because one is a melee spec) will probably profit the most from the system, followed by DKs, warriors and (healing) priests quite some distance behind wheres hybrids will gain practically nothing.

[Trenbolone]

And i hope they will have interrupt as an optional talent pick.
I have always joked about not having interrupt on my bars when in groups. Now i could seriously say im not talented into it. Priceless.
This is actually the best chance blizzard has at making wow "great" again. Or vanilla like.
The trolling. Awful builds. Clueless and useless people in groups and world. God i hope this makes it live.