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  1. #41
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    EDIT: there's stuff to fix in the tree, especially sub. Stuff like SB cd being reduced by ST but you can not take ST. Also there's talk about bringing Atrophic poison in the class tree from the Assassination one.
    You'd realistically take both though, but it does make more sense for Shadow Techniques to be part of the same pathing

    If I were to fix that id probably move Fade to Nothing to where The First Dance is, Deepening Shadows to where Fade to Nothing was, Shadow Techniques to where Deepening Shadows was and The First Dance to where Shadow Techniques was. That may require The First Dance to get some rebalancing or overhauled completely.. but I think it would otherwise get passed over anyway tbh
    Last edited by Evolixe; 2022-07-22 at 02:47 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    You'd realistically take both though, but it does make more sense for Shadow Techniques to be part of the same pathing

    If I were to fix that id probably move Fade to Nothing to where The First Dance is, Deepening Shadows to where Fade to Nothing was, Shadow Techniques to where Deepening Shadows was and The First Dance to where Shadow Techniques was. That may require The First Dance to get some rebalancing or overhauled completely.. but I think it would otherwise get passed over anyway tbh
    There's work in progress on the sub tree, and talents will be moved around. Only thing i would like to see is to have dance as a side talent - mostly because since we have dance in the class tree and all specs can make use of it, it would be nice to make a danceless sub spec.

    There are already ideas floating around, and a lot of synergies with shadow damage conversion and buffs, with a lot of focus on gloomblade basically. We'll see what is coming.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  3. #43
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    I don't think danceless sub makes any sense, much like Outlaw or Assa with dance don't make any sense.
    Honestly it being in the tree at all is kinda weird. Its the foundation of the whole sub spec

    Having it in the class tree is much of the same as having ADR or RTB in the class tree. Except that those are actually somewhat useful to all specs.. but Dance is outright useless for Law and Sin
    Last edited by Evolixe; 2022-07-22 at 04:09 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    I don't think danceless sub makes any sense, much like Outlaw or Assa with dance don't make any sense.
    Honestly it being in the tree at all is kinda weird. Its the foundation of the whole sub spec

    Having it in the class tree is much of the same as having ADR or RTB in the class tree. Except that those are actually somewhat useful to all specs.. but Dance is outright useless for Law and Sin
    Dance actually will be quite powerful for outlaw, if things stay as they are now. There are a lot of talents that modify ambush on the outlaw tree and Dance will be affected by restless blades. Ironically enough, Outlaw actually benefits more from dance than sub does at the moment.

  5. #45
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    You don't have the energy to spend on ambushes, it looks good on paper but thats all it is. I don't believe its actually any good

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
    I don't think danceless sub makes any sense, much like Outlaw or Assa with dance don't make any sense.
    Honestly it being in the tree at all is kinda weird. Its the foundation of the whole sub spec

    Having it in the class tree is much of the same as having ADR or RTB in the class tree. Except that those are actually somewhat useful to all specs.. but Dance is outright useless for Law and Sin
    Sublaw is a thing actually - with all the left tree focus on Ambush is apparently a very strong option. It's strange and unusual for what we are used to but it's a thing.

    EDIT: balancing is obviously all around the place so right now we cannot really say if something works or not. We can only see what kind of synergies are possible to be built - and there are a lot of new ones. What you or i believe doesn't matter - only numbers when we reach a stable situation in the end.

    But one thing is very clear - if they didn't want for other specs to use dance in a viable manner, they wouldn't have put it in the class tree. Obviously it won't be the cornerstone of the build and more a burst CD. It's entirely possible that Dance gets removed from the class tree and something else is put there, leaving Sub as it is right now.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2022-07-25 at 08:02 AM.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  7. #47
    Blinding Powder needs to be renamed Pocket Sand...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Did you steal this thread? hum... probably not. I'm not trying to ambush you or even eviscerate you for this I swear!
    I don't know much about rogues, but this doesn't feel very rogue related but maybe I've been blinded or maybe this is part of a deeper stratagem.

    Ok let me sprint and vanish from this thread before someone assassinates me or kicks me out and cast me as an outlaw, I know my message lacks subtlety but my elusiveness could just be what this thread needs to deserve its place in this category.
    This post makes me want to gouge my eyes out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  9. #49
    playing rogue was better back in the day, because rogues played by the rules. no other classes play by the rules in fact they break them. not fair to rogues at all. blizzard has a sick sense of balance hope they go bankrupt.
    “Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life” “Logic will get you from A to Z; Imagination will get you everywhere.”

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Naiattavain View Post
    playing rogue was better back in the day, because rogues played by the rules. no other classes play by the rules in fact they break them. not fair to rogues at all. blizzard has a sick sense of balance hope they go bankrupt.
    I sincerely hope you quit the game then because wishing bankruptcy on a company who isn't doing what you tell them to do with your favorite class isn't healthy. Have to wonder why you even bothered to make that "we need to focus on the positive. -list your rogue moments." when all you've done since then is be negative.

  11. #51
    since we got basically no changes to the class in quite a while, do you think we will see any talent changes before the number tuning phase, if at all?

    and if not, are you happy with how the talent trees are right now?
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  12. #52
    is this just me, or was there never some alpha/beta with that less Rogue stuff? when i look at the number of changes, blue posts or talent tree repetitions of many other classes, i find Rogue’s presence extremely low. Warlock and maybe DH are the only other classes that feel to me same underrepresented in the changes/makings.

    it feels to me, like they are happy with Rogues overall, transferred everything to the new talent tree, did 1 blue post and called it a day. or maybe i missed some stuff. don’t know.

    and no, this shall not be some „i play class x and panic, cause i am on the lower end of the stick“ post. because i play 3 main classes. Rogue, Hunter and Warrior. And with the investment into Hunters i am rather happy and with the Warrior ones i am totally fine too.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2022-09-03 at 12:22 PM.

  13. #53
    sub should have decent range added to it. that be better.
    “Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life” “Logic will get you from A to Z; Imagination will get you everywhere.”

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Narzok View Post
    since we got basically no changes to the class in quite a while, do you think we will see any talent changes before the number tuning phase, if at all?

    and if not, are you happy with how the talent trees are right now?
    Looking at the talent tree now it seems like we did get changes, I just don't think they ever did patch notes on them, or the changes just happened and they haven't published the patch notes yet.

  15. #55
    The Rogue Sub tree is in a big mess.
    I really don't understand why there is deeper stratagem in the two trees. Also, the Deeper stratagem (which is quite a meh talent) is mandatory in the Rogue tree to get Find Weakness and Shadow Dance and in the tree subtley to get Dark Brew.
    p.s: And of course, I really hope that getting SD on both trees gives me 2 SD charges.

    And worst of all: Marked for Death (great opener for PVP) is now blocked by 3 Alacrity points.
    It is impossible to get the SD from the rogue tree and Echoing Reprimand at same time.
    I really hope the devs fix this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    Looking at the talent tree now it seems like we did get changes, I just don't think they ever did patch notes on them, or the changes just happened and they haven't published the patch notes yet.
    The changes were so bad that they were too embarrassed to publish.
    Last edited by Fantazma; 2022-09-09 at 02:59 AM.

  16. #56
    its not a big deal
    “Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life” “Logic will get you from A to Z; Imagination will get you everywhere.”

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantazma View Post
    The Rogue Sub tree is in a big mess.
    I really don't understand why there is deeper stratagem in the two trees. Also, the Deeper stratagem (which is quite a meh talent) is mandatory in the Rogue tree to get Find Weakness and Shadow Dance and in the tree subtley to get Dark Brew.
    p.s: And of course, I really hope that getting SD on both trees gives me 2 SD charges.

    And worst of all: Marked for Death (great opener for PVP) is now blocked by 3 Alacrity points.
    It is impossible to get the SD from the rogue tree and Echoing Reprimand at same time.
    I really hope the devs fix this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The changes were so bad that they were too embarrassed to publish.

    Exactly. Not a big fan of double Deeper Stratagem... Once ain't too bad, Sub has trouble during SB to not overcap CP anyway. But twice? Meh.

    You should get two stacks of SD if you take both talents. It's just bugged as of now. And you'll be able to get Echoing and SD in the class tree both once we're level 70.

    It's a shame we're losing out on MFD... As long as we go for SD, we'll have to decide between MFD or Echoing. The latter being much better, I don't think we'll have much choice.

    Kinda excited to see how Shadow Mist will work and if we can stack the charged CP. If that's possible, it's gonna be nasty for PvP (and encourage some degenerate gameplay but we're all rogues here, right?).
    Or maybe they'll remove the awesome new talent in the last second, like they did in the last alpha and replace it with a boring but effective alternative.

    Lastly, I hope they adjust the visuals for Echoing and Flaggelation. Not very on brand. Feels weird to have these glowing, colourful effects.

  18. #58
    i think there might be a realistic chance that Echoing Reprimand might not be as mandatory as an option.

    - as stated, double Deeper Strategem is almost mandatory, giving us 7cp baseline, thus reducing charged CP value slightly.
    - additionally, First Dance (gaining 4 CP on entering SD) will drastically reduce the chance to hit the charged point once per dance, unless the charge is at 4 or higher.
    - next, we do not get Resounding Clarity if we go for double SD (which should work, i really hope single charge SD is not the intended behaviour)
    - in addition to that, we lose conduit and soulbind effects that currently boost ER value.
    - lastly, we can get charged CPs via Shadow Mist.

    with all that combined, not taking ER and going for MfD instead might be more valuable. especially in m+ and raid fights with many reset options.

    on a side note, really bummed that we get basically nothing on the DF Pre-launch patch notes. at least some "we are fine with rogue atm" or "we are looking into xyz" would have been nice.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by B01L View Post
    Blinding Powder needs to be renamed Pocket Sand...
    Pocket hand


    Blizzard really did a number on the Battered Hilt and you have higher chance of being eaten by a shark inside your own home then finding one drop and winning it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    Exactly. Not a big fan of double Deeper Stratagem... Once ain't too bad, Sub has trouble during SB to not overcap CP anyway. But twice? Meh.

    You should get two stacks of SD if you take both talents. It's just bugged as of now. And you'll be able to get Echoing and SD in the class tree both once we're level 70.

    It's a shame we're losing out on MFD... As long as we go for SD, we'll have to decide between MFD or Echoing. The latter being much better, I don't think we'll have much choice.

    Kinda excited to see how Shadow Mist will work and if we can stack the charged CP. If that's possible, it's gonna be nasty for PvP (and encourage some degenerate gameplay but we're all rogues here, right?).
    Or maybe they'll remove the awesome new talent in the last second, like they did in the last alpha and replace it with a boring but effective alternative.

    Lastly, I hope they adjust the visuals for Echoing and Flaggelation. Not very on brand. Feels weird to have these glowing, colourful effects.
    Well, they just changed Shadow Mist. They want to give us a powerful Hit Combo.



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