RNG question

[Nitedrifter]

Why can't Blizzard implement a blacklist of gear that you have a future chance of looting?

IE
Vault - If the object has shown up on the vault and you didn't need it, won't ever use it you could select it to be on the blacklist. Obviously this would have to have limit to say 5 - 10 items. So as to still provide some RNG but it would alleviate getting the same trinket 3 weeks in a row that I will never ever need or use.
-
M+ end of dungeon run loot drops and it is either your BiS or something you would never use. As long as you have seen the item you can add it to your black list. Again maybe a limit of 1 item per dungeon
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This would still allow for RNG but would give a whole lot more player engagement into their toons and upgrades.
=
And for those saying, "well what is good this season/tier maybe be awful next season/tier, Blizzard could simply reset the blacklists every season or give the player the option when they log in on the first time of the new season the option to keep their black list or start over.

[WowIsDead64]

Nobody wants to increase players' chances to get upgrades.

I personally don't trust to RNG. There is too high chance of having "AI loot" in modern games. Would you trust to virtual casinos, if you wouldn't be able to verify if their RNG is fair or programmed to make you lose anyway?

[MrLachyG]

Why can't Blizzard implement a blacklist of gear that you have a future chance of looting?

IE
Vault - If the object has shown up on the vault and you didn't need it, won't ever use it you could select it to be on the blacklist. Obviously this would have to have limit to say 5 - 10 items. So as to still provide some RNG but it would alleviate getting the same trinket 3 weeks in a row that I will never ever need or use.
-
M+ end of dungeon run loot drops and it is either your BiS or something you would never use. As long as you have seen the item you can add it to your black list. Again maybe a limit of 1 item per dungeon
-
This would still allow for RNG but would give a whole lot more player engagement into their toons and upgrades.
=
And for those saying, "well what is good this season/tier maybe be awful next season/tier, Blizzard could simply reset the blacklists every season or give the player the option when they log in on the first time of the new season the option to keep their black list or start over.

I think if a series of 3 items appear and you don’t choose any but the tokens instead then they should never appear at that ilvl again, erheuchle have a bonus stat

[Deneios]

How about just introduce vendor gear you can buy with tokens you get from running M+? You dont need to give BiS gear from the vendor but a solid choice. Then you can keep chasing the dragon but you wont be as bitter when the RNG decides to go balls deep with no lube and no cab fare

[WowIsDead64]

My opinion: it's ok when RNG makes every character unique, but RNG-gating is bad.

Modern game developers exploit RNG to take full control over upgrades away from player and turn game into fully time-gated Skinner-chamber FOMO-fest. Because player doesn't have any control over RNG. I don't like such games. I like games, where I can work towards getting desired reward. I like games, where I can have some plan, not play according to "Just play and eventually you'll get this reward". Planning and having some strategy - is part of game for me. But devs just think, that if guides provide the most effective strategies anyway, then they should take such ability to plan and choose strategy away from players.

Only thing, player can expect: overall more attempts he do - overall higher chance to get loot he has. Simply because each attempt is extra chance to get reward. So, more player works to get some reward - quicker he gets it. But modern "AI loot" breaks this system. "AI loot" gives you reward, when it decides to do it. And this is unfair. Because it means, that player, who works harder to get reward, just wastes his time and effort. And the worst thing - it isn't even known, how much player should work not to waste his effort. Because "AI loot" algorithm isn't even known.

So, overall I don't like to mess with RNG. Only with high enough chances to get reward within reasonable time frame. Let's say 20-50%, when devs just can't gate reward behind more than 5-10 attempts.

And yeah. Gear vendor - is ultimate solution of problem.

[Darien Stegosaur]

Would you trust to virtual casinos, if you wouldn't be able to verify if their RNG is fair or programmed to make you lose anyway?

This is a bad analogy. The rules of casino games are inherently designed to make you lose even in person.

[WowIsDead64]

This is a bad analogy. The rules of casino games are inherently designed to make you lose even in person.

Yeah. But there is difference between fair loss due to being unlucky and unfair loss due to using sharker algorithm instead of fair RNG. In first case at least you know your chances, so risk - is your voluntary choice. In second case you just don't have any chances. If you win - then that's only because you're allowed to win to become hooked even more. That's why games are even worse, than casinos. At least casinos are regulated by government, that makes sure, that fair RNG is used. Games aren't inspected by anybody, so game devs can do whatever they want.

[Danuel]

Nobody wants to increase players' chances to get upgrades.

This and thread.

[WowIsDead64]

For now there is very high chance of having "broken" RNG in Wow. I play WOD Garrisons now and I experience lots of problems with follower respeccing, I didn't experience back in old days. Too hard to get specific ability, despite of 20-25% chance. Too many duplicates, despite of 75-80% chance to get non-duplicate. And each attempt - is 1k garrison resources, that take 2-3 days to obtain.

[czarek]

Nobody wants to increase players' chances to get upgrades.

I personally don't trust to RNG. There is too high chance of having "AI loot" in modern games. Would you trust to virtual casinos, if you wouldn't be able to verify if their RNG is fair or programmed to make you lose anyway?

Comaparing casino via wow rng goes badly to far and wrong tbh Casino is gamblin you have to lose ur money. There is no reason to get shit loot in here. Ok anythin you lose is ur time in game = you need more time in game = you buy sub. But this obviously isnt great system to punish player with shit loot = frustration = quit = no sub = GG TNX NO RE.

[WowIsDead64]

Comaparing casino via wow rng goes badly to far and wrong tbh Casino is gamblin you have to lose ur money. There is no reason to get shit loot in here. Ok anythin you lose is ur time in game = you need more time in game = you buy sub. But this obviously isnt great system to punish player with shit loot = frustration = quit = no sub = GG TNX NO RE.

Tell it to Mr.Kotik. It's standard problem. They wouldn't use such schemes, if they wouldn't work. So, it's more problem with players, than with developers. Even here you can hear something like "Bring back WF/TF".

[czarek]

Tell it to Mr.Kotik. It's standard problem. They wouldn't use such schemes, if they wouldn't work. So, it's more problem with players, than with developers. Even here you can hear something like "Bring back WF/TF".

You assume Kotik decides on RNG % loot in WoW ? Dont be silly lol.

[WowIsDead64]

You assume Kotik decides on RNG % loot in WoW ? Dont be silly lol.

We need more money for investors -> cheaper development -> lesser amount of content -> content have to be stretched -> lower droprates.

[czarek]

We need more money for investors -> cheaper development -> lesser amount of content -> content have to be stretched -> lower droprates.

OK. May it sounds fair but still he is not a person who decide it how loot system works in here ><

[WowIsDead64]

But problem is actually much more deeper. One would say, that we had even lesser amount of content back in old days, but game was still popular. Yeah. It's simple truth. All MMOs have faulty design, because it's based on overstretching content, i.e. too low reward/effort ratio. Below enjoyable level, provided by single-player games. You have to do too much to get reward, that isn't worth it. Nasty psychological tricks are exploited to hide this simple truth from us. For example some "number game", where bigger numbers themselves are enough motivation for player to keep doing the same things again, again and again. It just has taken some time for players to realize it.

[Puri]

Sure they could implement something like that. Or they could just implement a whitelist so you can practically choose the items you want.

It's not a technical issue, it's a game design issue. Loot RNG is a core principle of WoW, and they don't seem to want to reduce it. Actually with the recent changes (no personal loot, no bonus rolls) we can see they rather go the opposite way.

[czarek]

Sure they could implement something like that. Or they could just implement a whitelist so you can practically choose the items you want.

It's not a technical issue, it's a game design issue. Loot RNG is a core principle of WoW, and they don't seem to want to reduce it. Actually with the recent changes (no personal loot, no bonus rolls) we can see they rather go the opposite way.

The RNG is just RNG. Its just not fair. If someone thinks RNG should be fair they dont know how RNG works. Simple test with dice roll. Most ppl think all number rolls equal to the others. They are not. RNG system works well in games but not as one of the main reward system.

[WowIsDead64]

Common problem here: if items would drop as often, as they were dropping back in WotLK/Cata LFD - player would be done with such content within one week. Players ask for more things to do, but at the same time don't want to do the same things again, again and again for zero rewards. Devs start to stretch rewards to give them to players in smaller pieces. For example they give us current ilvl+X upgrades instead of giving BIS items, so player has to obtain exactly the same items again and again. But reward/effort ratio drops in this case. And some players, including me, don't agree to do content, if reward/effort ratio is below some minimal enjoyable threshold. And for now only viable solution for me - is replayability. Playing same content on other class or spec - is completely different thing, that still provides some sense of progression. Blizzard have killed offspec runs by their own hands. So, it's mostly about playing alts now. Player still can cherry pick content with the highest reward/effort ratio and replay it on alts. And devs kill their own game, when they try to intentionally overstretch this content, as it happened with Covenants and Anima grind for example.

[FelPlague]

Sure they could implement something like that. Or they could just implement a whitelist so you can practically choose the items you want.

It's not a technical issue, it's a game design issue. Loot RNG is a core principle of WoW, and they don't seem to want to reduce it. Actually with the recent changes (no personal loot, no bonus rolls) we can see they rather go the opposite way.

??? Didbya forget the vault exists? Also the removal of personal loot reduces RNG not increases it.

[Steelcryo]

Blizzard and most MMO's would never do this simply because if you increase players chances of getting gear, you increase their chances of "finishing" their goals. The longer you can make a player keep playing to try and get better gear, the more money you make from them staying subbed. RNG is just a money making scheme, artificially extending the play time required for a game by making you repeat the same content over and over, often for no reward on the hope you MIGHT get a reward.

It's the most basic and shitty gameplay loop a game can implement, but it works in MMO's because often people find just doing the content over and over fun rather than a tedious grind. Once it starts being a tedious grind, then normally people would quit, but if there's a small glimmer of hope of getting a reward, people will stick around even longer. Where as if they already had all the gear and were just running it for fun, they'd quit as soon as they got bored.

When you think about it, it's actually a really scummy way to treat players.