Poll: Do you think blood elves were stronger than night elves? Who would have won in a war?

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  1. #181
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Ah yes, "The Horde committed a massive atrocity against people I love, and I want justice for their crimes" is crazy.

    "Victims shouldn't seek justice" has been the long term message from Blizzard for the Alliance, and it's particularly disgusting in view of the real world. That's all I'll say about that absolutely fucked up reasoning and anyone defending it.
    I never said anything about them seeking justice, or even vengeance, as being crazy in and of itself - that's a reductionist strawman version of what I said. I also don't believe that either Jaina or Tyrande was wrong to seek justice - but both of them went somewhat nuts by their own admission, so I think the underlying point stands regardless.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I never said anything about them seeking justice, or even vengeance, as being crazy in and of itself - that's a reductionist strawman version of what I said. I also don't believe that either Jaina or Tyrande was wrong to seek justice - but both of them went somewhat nuts by their own admission, so I think the underlying point stands regardless.
    They cannot admit anything. They can only "speak" the lines written for them by writers who blame victims, and thus label them as crazy. Their actions are portrayed as resulting from this supposed insanity. Thus, Blizzard has explicitly written that seeking justice is crazy and no different from vengeance. I leave it to the reader whether to defend that viewpoint or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #183
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    They cannot admit anything. They can only "speak" the lines written for them by writers who blame victims, and thus label them as crazy. Their actions are portrayed as resulting from this supposed insanity. Thus, Blizzard has explicitly written that seeking justice is crazy and no different from vengeance. I leave it to the reader whether to defend that viewpoint or not.
    Attacking your own daughter and the people trying to save you from your own self-destruction (e.g. Tyrande when Shadris, the Maw Walker, and others are trying to extract her unstable Night Warrior powers) would certainly fall under the classification of "crazy." Tyrande had plenty of reasons to seek said power, and I personally agreed with and understood her desire for vengeance and justice for her people - but being the Night Warrior still eventually drove her insane with rage.

    It is possible to be justified in one's outlook but still lose one's shit in the process, these aren't mutually exclusive outcomes.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  4. #184
    Not once did Blizzard refer to it as seeking justice, always phrasing it as "vengeance crazed" or similar.

    You agree with their viewpoint, I don't. Due to what seems to be an incredibly heavy handed case of real life influencing the story, that's about as far as I want to go with it. Further, we're taking thread this off topic.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2022-08-12 at 09:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    Not to mention the actual punishment for wielding arcane magic was death. If it weren't for the mercy of the Night Elves, the Blood Elves wouldn't even exist today.
    and the highborne helped in the war, dathremar rescued tyrande when she was a prisoner

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Ah yes, "The Horde committed a massive atrocity against people I love, and I want justice for their crimes" is crazy.

    "Victims shouldn't seek justice" has been the long term message from Blizzard for the Alliance, and it's particularly disgusting in view of the real world.
    But if you're an Alliance player, surely you would want to "be better" than the enemies you hate so much, not imitate them in retaliation, consciously or otherwise?

    "The Alliance has its share of disparity within it as well, and different facets that have bubbled up over the years. The Alliance is going to have to realign itself. Especially the Night Elves who lose their home. How are they going to react to this? There’s going to be a real self-examination of what the Alliance is about, and how they want to behave. Do they want to get revenge on the Horde, or do they want to build a better world? That’s a question they need to answer."
    https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2...e-alliance-wow

    I mean, if for example Tyrande and Malfurion tried to start a new war to get revenge on the Horde, with Alliance assistance or not, even more of the night elves would end up being killed. The Horde seemed to be stronger than the Alliance at the end of the war anyway, rejuvenated and reunited especially with the new leadership of Thrall and Gazlowe and others, so it was probably best for the Alliance that both sides agreed to the armistice.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  7. #187
    Being stronger doesn't necessarily net you a win. In warcraft the weaker side usually wins eventually.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    But if you're an Alliance player, surely you would want to "be better" than the enemies you hate so much, not imitate them in retaliation, consciously or otherwise?


    https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2...e-alliance-wow

    I mean, if for example Tyrande and Malfurion tried to start a new war to get revenge on the Horde, with Alliance assistance or not, even more of the night elves would end up being killed. The Horde seemed to be stronger than the Alliance at the end of the war anyway, rejuvenated and reunited especially with the new leadership of Thrall and Gazlowe and others, so it was probably best for the Alliance that both sides agreed to the armistice.
    Every single time the idiotic faction stalemate rears its ugly head, the Horde massacres and burns down Alliance towns. Alliance wins only because the franchise can't delete one side, and proceeds to let the Horde go its merry way. No reparations, no punishment for war crimes, just "Pinky swear, we won't do it again! Besides, it was all Blackhand/Gul'Dan/Doomhammer/Garrosh/Sylvanas, the rest of us were attending poetry readings!"

    Win the "moral victory" by not fighting back, just build something else for the Horde to destroy on its next rampage. Let crimes go unpunished, victims should just get over it. After all, there's no difference between justice and vengeance. Absolutely absurd and disgusting message from Blizzard.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2022-08-15 at 04:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Absolutely absurd and disgusting message from Blizzard.
    Blizz story doesn't have a message in their setting, they wish it had, but it just doesn't never had and never will. Morality is utterly pointless in wow, at best in terms of morality you get the ends justify the means, at worst omnicide for the lulz.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Every single time the idiotic faction stalemate rears its ugly head, the Horde massacres and burns down Alliance towns. Alliance wins only because the franchise can't delete one side, and proceeds to let the Horde go its merry way. No reparations, no punishment for war crimes, just "Pinky swear, we won't do it again! Besides, it was all Blackhand/Gul'Dan/Doomhammer/Garrosh/Sylvanas, the rest of us were attending poetry readings!"

    Win the "moral victory" by not fighting back, just build something else for the Horde to destroy on its next rampage. Let crimes go unpunished, victims should just get over it. After all, there's no difference between justice and vengeance. Absolutely absurd and disgusting message from Blizzard.
    Perhaps the two factions should just split their world into a continent for each side, and try their best to stay away from each other then...
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  11. #191
    The Night Eves have virtual demi-gods on their side (Malfurion, Night Warrior Tyrande, maybe even Illidan if he took an interest). Who do the Blood Elves have against those heavyweights? Would Sylvannas care?
    Last edited by Joveon Lightbringer; 2022-09-09 at 10:12 PM. Reason: spelling

    To Infinity and Beyond!

  12. #192
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    The fact that the NE could fight the Horde with minor help from their allies (excluding the Worgen and the player character) in Battle for Darkshore, show that they are much more powerful than the BE.

    Also the NE have more external help and powerful individual than the BE, and by external help I do not mean the alliance, I mean nature.

    Note: Please remember that the BE are still recovering from an purge of Teldrassil kind of event still, they may be better than the NE right now cause the NE one just happened, but that doesn't mean that they have recovered fully.

  13. #193
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    The fact that the NE could fight the Horde with minor help from their allies (excluding the Worgen and the player character) in Battle for Darkshore, show that they are much more powerful than the BE.

    Also the NE have more external help and powerful individual than the BE, and by external help I do not mean the alliance, I mean nature.

    Note: Please remember that the BE are still recovering from an purge of Teldrassil kind of event still, they may be better than the NE right now cause the NE one just happened, but that doesn't mean that they have recovered fully.
    So... I really don't want to agree, but this is a most excellent point. The NE & Worgen did also have the home-field advantage however, not that that negates your point.

  14. #194
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    So... I really don't want to agree, but this is a most excellent point. The NE & Worgen did also have the home-field advantage however, not that that negates your point.
    That's true they had an advantage just because of the place, it was not magic filled like what he BE would have preferred, but in the end, those are not common, the magic filled areas can be counted with a hand our two, so that alone make the NE stronger, if the NE face the BE in their home, maybe then they will face defeat, but it's quite likely that's just temporary, assuming the BE got their shield on, they may be able to defend their homeland, but anywhere else? unlikely, but if we go to the future where the BE and Nightborne are united, they may easily repel the NE.

    But there's a big deference on repel and beat.

    Note: Thank you for giving relevancy to my comment

  15. #195
    Original lore wise - night elves are clearly the stronger.

    Placed at both physical and intelligence apex of their race with the other elves technically diminished or broken in one form or the other.

    However, night elves abandoned civilization for 10k years and stagnated there, and they stopped using the arcane to enhance their intelligence which the devolved high elves picked up again.

    In Warcraft the elves were at their apex as night elves but have for one reason or the other diminished.

    Night elves diminished in terms of progress putting aside rebuilding their race to protect the world (the Darnassians mainly). They have recently started rebuilding and reconciling so they have potential to regain and unprecedented their earlier works - but then they recently nearly got wiped out, and question remains if they really want to thrive again or just chill
    High elves finished when they devolved from the exile, even though the sunwell enhanced them, the baseline is lower than what it once was - and despite their drive they have not matched the original elven state. Yet they are super determined and all of them, not just blood elves are going full out to increase and maximise their power. However the focus seems to be battle and not building. Their determination makes them the most dangerous.
    Nightborne and Highborne all greatly stagnated - they may have retained more original knowledge, but their progress was slow, and they confined themselves operating at a fraction of what they could - their indulgence also corrupted them in different ways but have obviously been written to finally find freedom and healing


    So there you go. Blood elves have humiliated night elves every time they have met in game in battle. But the powers the night elven priesthood, Druid and highborne could command as well as their higher natural capability drill outstrips if not greatly outstrips the high elves


    Powers:

    Night elves have: Elune, Night Warrior, Well of Eternity, Emerald Dream and nature to potentially calm on and demonic fel from demon hunters.


    High elves have: The void and potentially the sunwell of allowed access

    Blood elves have the Sunwell arcane and light and new Blood magic as well as fe power from demon hunters


    Take your pick

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post

    "Victims shouldn't seek justice" has been the long term message from Blizzard for the Alliance, and it's particularly disgusting in view of the real world. That's all I'll say about that absolutely fucked up reasoning and anyone defending it.
    Odd I remember this message being spoken to Lorthemar and Jaina, after Jaina had murdered a bunch of innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2022-09-21 at 05:05 AM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Odd I remember this message being spoken to Lorthemar and Jaina, after Jaina had murdered a bunch of innocent Blood Elves in Dalaran.
    Weird that you can only point to one incident that did not happen the way you claim (Dave Kosak makes clear they were teleported and other devs have stated it was a bug for some to turn hostile). Meanwhile, that message has consistently been hammered on Alliance for twenty years even as entire cities are wiped off the map along with countless other atrocities by the Horde.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2022-09-21 at 05:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  18. #198
    Before Arthas genocided the blood elves sure. Thanks to the Sunwell they had a deus ex machina at hands. Afterwards it was a cake walk for the night elves.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post


    Whereas Night Elves have the Ancients, Treants, and Wild Gods (if they chose to act, the lazy bastards). Moreover, the Sunwell really doesn't help them in this instance unless they've found a way to move Quel'danas. Even regarding sorcery, the remnants of the Highborne rejoined the Kaldorei in Cataclysm, and they were the upper-caste of Kaldorei who actively used the powers of the Well of Eternity. Combined with their deep understanding of druidism, unless the Sin'dorei are able to move the Sunwell or are capable of using some magical MacGuffin to project its energies across the planet with no loss in potency, the Kaldorei win on the magic front.

    The Sunwell buff works everywhere, as Blizzard has been tweeting for a long time. The Blood Elves do not lose touch with the Well, even in other dimensions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Before Arthas genocided the blood elves sure. Thanks to the Sunwell they had a deus ex machina at hands. Afterwards it was a cake walk for the night elves.
    The Night Elves in Warcraft 3 would easily crush the High Elves in Warcraft 3 lol. They would not have been able to take their city because of the shield, but the High Elves would not have been able to take Nordrassil and in open battle the High Elves would have been roflstomped, even without Cenarius.

  20. #200
    The blood elves at their peak needed humans to fend off some trolls. Today, they cant even clear out the ghostlands after two decades. A split and rebel force of night elves stopped the burning legion invasion and in BFA fended off the full brunt of the entire horde army.

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