Do you think blood elves were stronger than night elves? Who would have won in a war?

[Loreth88]

The Amani were attacking Arathor constantly too, not as much as Quel'thalas but the Humans also had to protect their borders at all times and couldn't expand.

So my point still stands overall, if the Amani had not been utterly crushed by the power of the magic of the High Elves, the Amani wouldn't have been defeated and the Humans wouldn't have created the 7 kingdoms (so, no Alliance in the future) at best, or Arathor would have been doomed under the might of the Amani too, at worst.

Yes they are attacking everyone. Arathor (Sigmar?) united the human tribes and they can defend themselves from the invaders, but the elves loosing and going for aid tot he humans.
U can assume the Amani kill everyone, if the new alliance between elves and humans not defeating them, but we didn't know that. The trolls attack the elf settlements because they build on trolls land, what sacred to them.

[Combatbutler]

Yes they are attacking everyone. Arathor (Sigmar?) united the human tribes and they can defend themselves from the invaders, but the elves loosing and going for aid tot he humans.

No the humans could not defend themselves, because they weren't attacked by the trolls in force. All they ever dealt with were small incursions,while the elves tanked the amani army, which is why the humans help to begin with, because they know they are screwed if the elves fall.

U can assume the Amani kill everyone, if the new alliance between elves and humans not defeating them, but we didn't know that. The trolls attack the elf settlements because they build on trolls land, what sacred to them.

The first time yes they attack the elves because of that, are soundly beaten and plot vengeance until the Zandalari come along and organized them to rise up again and this time they want all their stuff back, which includes the entirety of human land, since that had belonged to them at one point.

[Loreth88]

No the humans could not defend themselves, because they weren't attacked by the trolls in force. All they ever dealt with were small incursions,while the elves tanked the amani army, which is why the humans help to begin with, because they know they are screwed if the elves fall.



The first time yes they attack the elves because of that, are soundly beaten and plot vengeance until the Zandalari come along and organized them to rise up again and this time they want all their stuff back, which includes the entirety of human land, since that had belonged to them at one point.

maybe, we don't know, but the elves were too close to the territories of the trolls and thus after regeneration they could fight immediately within a short distance, but the humans were much further away, it would have been more difficult to retreat.
Yeah they want, but could they? I wanna be a billionaire but could i?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The legion already had access to Azeroth due to the Jeweled Scepter of Sargeras, it is how his avatar got there to begin with, Sargeras just has a hard on for a good corruption story.

The avatar was never meant for long term invasion it was just a stepping stone for sargaras to get a tool actually able to do a full scale invasion which is why they didn’t hop through as soon as the sceptre was done they waited for Aegwynn.

Here from the sceptre lore book in legion.

Thus he commanded the eredar to forge a tool that would wrench open rifts between worlds for only a short time, Thus he commanded the eredar to forge a tool that would wrench open rifts between worlds for only a short time, just long enough to let a portion of his soul through. Although that meant he couldn't enter Azeroth in his most devastating form, such an instrument would clear a path for his avatar to lead the Legion's invasion or carry out subtler schemes.

Millennia later, Sargeras saw his opportunity. The Guardian Aegwynn had become the most powerful mage on Azeroth, and not even the Council of Tirisfal could control her. Her pride made her a fine candidate for corruption. Sargeras could not infiltrate Azeroth in his most lethal form, but perhaps he could use the rebellious Guardian as a vessel for his machinations.

[Combatbutler]

maybe, we don't know, but the elves were too close to the territories of the trolls and thus after regeneration they could fight immediately within a short distance, but the humans were much further away, it would have been more difficult to retreat.

They weren't further away, they were neighbours

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20170224003442

Yeah they want, but could they? I wanna be a billionaire but could i?

Sure they could humans had literally nothing but bodies to throw at the enemy, prior to learning magic, there is a reason humans pretty much achieved nothing until they learned magic, despite being an old race.

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The avatar was never meant for long term invasion it was just a stepping stone for sargaras to get a tool actually able to do a full scale invasion which is why they didn’t hop through as soon as the sceptre was done they waited for Aegwynn.

Here from the sceptre lore book in legion.

Because the guy wanted to wait and go the path of least possible resistance,the entire invasion with the orcs etc, was him putting up scraps Kil'jaeden had discarded, it wasn't some great masterplan. Heck he could have smuggled eredar onto the planet a few every year to avoid detection and then have them open a portal in a remote region etc.

We know for a fact you don't need a super powerful being to open massive portals to other worlds, to lead entire invasion forces.

The core is this

such an instrument would clear a path for his avatar to lead the Legion's invasion or carry out subtler schemes

he chose the later. Sargeras just wanted to be sneaky

[Synvanas]

I took the Troll Wars just as an example, but actually the Alliance would have lost the Second War without the High Elves as well. Quel'thalas totally in control of the Amani means Doomhammer wouldn't have had to split his forces (especially the Dragonmaw) to attack Silvermoon, and also Gul'Dan wouldn't have the right occasion to leave and betray the Orcs like it happened there in Quel'thalas, so Lordaeron City would have fallen in this case.

Or no High Elves in the Third War, it means Arthas and the Scourge would have devatested Lordaeron and then Ironforge and Stormwind anyway too, even if Kel'thuzad wouldn't have been able to summon Archimonde (because he would still be dead without the Sunwell) and then bring the war in Kalimdor, the Eastern Kingdoms and the Alliance were doomed eventually anyway.

So for those people who still think the High Elves didn't really contribute at help saving the Alliance and the world a few times simply with their existence and that maybe they should have just been executed by the Night Elves, then .... no

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because the guy wanted to wait and go the path of least possible resistance,the entire invasion with the orcs etc, was him putting up scraps Kil'jaeden had discarded, it wasn't some great masterplan. Heck he could have smuggled eredar onto the planet a few every year to avoid detection and then have them open a portal in a remote region etc.

We know for a fact you don't need a super powerful being to open massive portals to other worlds, to lead entire invasion forces.

The core is this he chose the later. Sargeras just wanted to be sneaky

You don’t need to be super powerful to open a portal but you do need a huge power source to make a sustained one like the legion needed to invade and you need that power on both sides which is why the orcs had to get so many goat souls for there end.

He could have in theory sneaked in abunch of demons to build a power base on Azeroth’s side but given that use of the sceptre tends to be detected it would increases the risk a lot and open him up to losing the sceptre with nothing gained in return.

[Combatbutler]

You don’t need to be super powerful to open a portal but you do need a huge power source to make a sustained one like the legion needed to invade and you need that power on both sides which is why the orcs had to get so many goat souls for there end.

He could have in theory sneaked in abunch of demons to build a power base on Azeroth’s side but given that use of the sceptre tends to be detected it would increases the risk a lot and open him up to losing the sceptre with nothing gained in return.

The thing is powerful sources on Azeroth are a dime a dozen. An easy example would be Azjol nerub, get his avatar there instead of nuking the dragons and get detected, instead get demons in some parts of the old kingdom, butcher the spiders en mass use their souls to sustain a portal, then amass your army in secret.

And build an undead army out of the spider remains.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The thing is powerful sources on Azeroth are a dime a dozen. An easy example would be Azjol nerub, get his avatar there instead of nuking the dragons and get detected, instead get demons in some parts of the old kingdom, butcher the spiders en mass use their souls to sustain a portal, then amass your army in secret.

And build an undead army out of the spider remains.

The problem with the idea of collecting souls for power is you need to get a sizeable force of demons on the ground to do the killing which would likely be detected just like other users of the sceptre was.

We also have to keep in mind that opening a portal to Outland was likely way easier then to deeper parts of the twisting nether so you’d need to gather enough souls on Azeroth to put the orcs to shame a hope nobody noticed while you were doing it.

For obvious reasons this isn’t a great plan which is why sargaras choose not to brute force it and waited form some one powerful to corrupt instead.

[Varodoc]

Not to mention the actual punishment for wielding arcane magic was death. If it weren't for the mercy of the Night Elves, the Blood Elves wouldn't even exist today.

How ironic. Tyrande Whisperwind/Malfurion Stormrage's mercy allowed Quel'Thalas to be founded. 7,000 years later, a fallen Thalassian named Sylvanas would commit genocide upon Tyrande's people.

To be fair, Sylvanas could have been a crazy bitch even if she was born a Night elf on Kalimdor, so I shouldn't be too critical of Tyrande/Malfurion's decision.

[Aucald]

How ironic. Tyrande Whisperwind/Malfurion Stormrage's mercy allowed Quel'Thalas to be founded. 7,000 years later, a fallen Thalassian named Sylvanas would commit genocide upon Tyrande's people.

To be fair, Sylvanas could have been a crazy bitch even if she was born a Night elf on Kalimdor, so I shouldn't be too critical of Tyrande/Malfurion's decision.

Most of her family being killed, being made into an undead Banshee, and then being forced to mass-murder her own people were probably mitigating factors when it comes down to her being batshit insane. By no means excuses her, but if she didn't undergo a trauma conga line her life would've likely been much different.

[Synvanas]

Most of her family being killed, being made into an undead Banshee, and then being forced to mass-murder her own people were probably mitigating factors when it comes down to her being batshit insane. By no means excuses her, but if she didn't undergo a trauma conga line her life would've likely been much different.

Yes, and then imagine what kind of huge mental trauma Alleria would have undergone if she had been present during the Scourge invasion of Quel'thalas...she became furious and looked almost crazy killing Orcs just for the loss of Lirath, imagine if she had witnessed Arthas and the Scourge killing 90% of the people and ruining the Sunwell, what would have happened to her...and if she had died in the invasion and been raised in undeath as well, I'm quite sure eventually Alleria would have followed Sylvanas and made her same choices as a Forsaken too....

[Varodoc]

Most of her family being killed, being made into an undead Banshee, and then being forced to mass-murder her own people were probably mitigating factors when it comes down to her being batshit insane. By no means excuses her, but if she didn't undergo a trauma conga line her life would've likely been much different.

Plenty of people in-universe went through similar or identical traumatic events and they didn't lose their sanity, as usual you try to excuse and justify the Horde, but it is pointless. Everyone's got a sad sob story, not everyone tried to destroy the Cosmos.

It's okay though, Sylvanas will now spend an eternity in the Maw. There she can reflect on how she pretty much made all the wrong choices.

[Aucald]

Plenty of people in-universe went through similar or identical traumatic events and they didn't lose their sanity, as usual you try to excuse and justify the Horde, but it is pointless. Everyone's got a sad sob story, not everyone tried to destroy the Cosmos.

It's okay though, Sylvanas will now spend an eternity in the Maw. There she can reflect on how she pretty much made all the wrong choices.

I quite literally said it doesn't excuse her, so I'm quite literally neither justifying nor excusing the Horde.

Sylvanas is also not alone in being WoW's "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds." There's Gul'dan, who was abused by his clan and became the Destroyer of Dreams, who went on to destroy his world and attempt to destroy Azeroth. There's also the OG big bad of the Warcraft universe, Sargeras, who became an omnicidal maniac after he got spooked by the Void existing.

Also, declaring "you're biased" isn't an automatic win button, most especially when my post itself manifestly had no bias - since in addition to that I also don't consider Sylvanas to be Horde anymore as she betrayed it in BfA (along with betraying the rest of the world to the Mawsworn).

[Varodoc]

I quite literally said it doesn't excuse her, so I'm quite literally neither justifying nor excusing the Horde.

Sylvanas is also not alone in being WoW's "Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds." There's Gul'dan, who was abused by his clan and became the Destroyer of Dreams, who went on to destroy his world and attempt to destroy Azeroth. There's also the OG big bad of the Warcraft universe, Sargeras, who became an omnicidal maniac after he got spooked by the Void existing.

Also, declaring "you're biased" isn't an automatic win button, most especially when my post itself manifestly had no bias - since in addition to that I also don't consider Sylvanas to be Horde anymore as she betrayed it in BfA (along with betraying the rest of the world to the Mawsworn).

There are no mitigating factors in the first place.

Sylvanas is also not alone in being WoW's "a massive army of undead slaughtered my loved ones, destroyed my kingdom, killed me, and raised me as one of theirs for a time", the entire Forsaken and Ebon Blade population keep her company in this regard. And yet we see that quite a lot of Forsaken and Ebon Blade knights (the majority in fact) did not go crazy and start hating all the living. And Sylvanas made an effort to make the Forsaken as bitter and resentful as she is (see Before the Storm), but she failed as per usual.

In fact I don't know why you are even trying to find mitigating factors. Sylvanas literally had a trial and pretty much no one attending brought up the fact that she was influenced by the Lich King (pre-Shadowlands script) and/or the Jailer (post-Shadowlands script).

Also, declaring "you're biased" isn't an automatic win button

I mean, I only ever see you making excuses and justifications for Horde or ex-Horde characters. I have literally never seen you be so thoughtful and compassioante towards one of the (very few) Alliance villains, such as VanCleef or Benedictus.

It's alright, I understand. You are like that, but so are the writers. That's why when an Alliance character snaps and goes crazy, they have to die. But when a Horde character snaps and goes crazy, oh no we can't kill them, we have to put them on trial.

Similarly, I will be surprised if Malfurion actually gets a funeral in Dragonflight. Grandiose funerals are events reserved for Horde characters, like Cairne and Vol'jin, after all.

[Combatbutler]

The problem with the idea of collecting souls for power is you need to get a sizeable force of demons on the ground to do the killing which would likely be detected just like other users of the sceptre was.

We also have to keep in mind that opening a portal to Outland was likely way easier then to deeper parts of the twisting nether so you’d need to gather enough souls on Azeroth to put the orcs to shame a hope nobody noticed while you were doing it.

For obvious reasons this isn’t a great plan which is why sargaras choose not to brute force it and waited form some one powerful to corrupt instead.

The thing is the planet was still littered with demons, heck the night elves fought an army of sartyr and nearly lost that conflict, heck the legion opened smaller portals, streaming out demons like candy shops in legion, the moment the groundwork is laid invasion becomes rather easy, we also shouldn't forget all it took to bring the legion in force during wc3 was Kel'thuzad and a book. The moment Archimonde was through it was game over until Hyjal.

Getting to Azeroth was never the problem the night elves just never realized that and implemented a half hearted measure, since they did not try to stop the spread of arcane teachings itself, instead of hunting down mages all over the globe in order to enforce their goal of a hidden and safe azeroth, they basically said, not my backyard not my problem do what you want.

[Aucald]

There are no mitigating factors in the first place.

Sylvanas is also not alone in being WoW's "a massive army of undead slaughtered my loved ones, destroyed my kingdom, killed me, and raised me as one of theirs for a time", the entire Forsaken and Ebon Blade population keep her company in this regard. And yet we see that quite a lot of Forsaken and Ebon Blade knights (the majority in fact) did not go crazy and start hating all the living. And Sylvanas made an effort to make the Forsaken as bitter and resentful as she is (see Before the Storm), but she failed as per usual.

In fact I don't know why you are even trying to find mitigating factors. Sylvanas literally had a trial and pretty much no one attending brought up the fact that she was influenced by the Lich King (pre-Shadowlands script) and/or the Jailer (post-Shadowlands script).

A good villain tends to have mitigating factors, or at least elements of their story that go toward explaining their actions - which, I will note since you seem laser-focused on finding bias, doesn't *justify* said actions. Garithos, for instance, has some mitigating circumstances in his xenophobia due to his perception that the High Elves betrayed him and his village in the Second War (by not coming to their aid when needed). VanCleef's mitigation circumstances are quite well known and didn't really need belaboring - the royals and nobles of Stormwind stiffed him and the other stonemasons when it came to the reconstruction of Stormwind, and he repaid them in kind by becoming the leader of a group of brigands. Benedictus, sadly, probably has the least winning of villain tales for Alliance villains, what with his disillusionment with the Light and embrace of nihilism via the Twilight's Hammer cultists and Deathwing.

I also never said Sylvanas was influenced by either the Lich King or the Jailer - she chose to do the terrible things she did of free will and with full knowledge, but her choices were nonetheless informed by the successive traumas she'd undergone to arrive at the place she ultimately did. The fact that other individuals made different choices in light of their own traumas is exactly what shows Sylvanas to ultimately be evil in outlook. As opposed to growing as a person or internalizing what had happened to her, and then trying to make the world a place where such things wouldn't happen to someone, she petulantly and vainly embraced evil for its own sake and became an ironic echo of her own damage.

I mean, I only ever see you making excuses and justifications for Horde or ex-Horde characters. I have literally never seen you be so thoughtful and compassioante towards one of the (very few) Alliance villains, such as VanCleef or Benedictus.

A quick jaunt through my post history would quickly show your view of me is quite skewed, then.

It's alright, I understand. You are like that, but so are the writers. That's why when an Alliance character snaps and goes crazy, they have to die. But when a Horde character snaps and goes crazy, oh no we can't kill them, we have to put them on trial.

Then you're wrong on two counts. Jaina snapped and went crazy for quite some time, but she recovered and is to this day still chewing the scenery, whereas we've killed Garrosh multiple times now, ensuring that he's deader than dead. Tyrande also went crazy when she became the Night Warrior, and she's pretty far from dead as well.

Similarly, I will be surprised if Malfurion actually gets a funeral in Dragonflight. Grandiose funerals are events reserved for Horde characters, like Cairne and Vol'jin, after all.

Remains to be seen, really. Malfurion taking Ysera's place in Ardenweald may not qualify as "death" in any real sense, any more than Malfurion slumbering in the Emerald Dream for millennia was death.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The thing is the planet was still littered with demons, heck the night elves fought an army of sartyr and nearly lost that conflict, heck the legion opened smaller portals, streaming out demons like candy shops in legion, the moment the groundwork is laid invasion becomes rather easy, we also shouldn't forget all it took to bring the legion in force during wc3 was Kel'thuzad and a book. The moment Archimonde was through it was game over until Hyjal.

Getting to Azeroth was never the problem the night elves just never realized that and implemented a half hearted measure, since they did not try to stop the spread of arcane teachings itself, instead of hunting down mages all over the globe in order to enforce their goal of a hidden and safe azeroth, they basically said, not my backyard not my problem do what you want.

once the ground work is laid ya they can get more portals going easy the problem is actually setting up that ground work without some one stopping you and doing so almost always draws attention because you need a lot of power to do it.

while there were demons on Azeroth since the WoTA they didn't have the power needed to set up that ground work and they were getting weaker over time with the Sartyr's being beaten and the Guardian's being founded for the whole purpose of fighting demons and there corruption, Even Sargaras with his avatar and the scepter were weaker then Aegwynn and it wasn't until he took over Medivh and the power of the Guaridan that he actually had the means to get another invasion going and even that was only enough to get to outland not any actual demon filled space.

[Feanoro]

Jaina snapped and went crazy for quite some time, but she recovered and is to this day still chewing the scenery, whereas we've killed Garrosh multiple times now, ensuring that he's deader than dead. Tyrande also went crazy when she became the Night Warrior, and she's pretty far from dead as well.

Ah yes, "The Horde committed a massive atrocity against people I love, and I want justice for their crimes" is crazy.

"Victims shouldn't seek justice" has been the long term message from Blizzard for the Alliance, and it's particularly disgusting in view of the real world. That's all I'll say about that absolutely fucked up reasoning and anyone defending it.

[Combatbutler]

while there were demons on Azeroth since the WoTA they didn't have the power needed to set up that ground work and they were getting weaker over time with the Sartyr's being beaten and the Guardian's being founded for the whole purpose of fighting demons and there corruption, Even Sargaras with his avatar and the scepter were weaker then Aegwynn and it wasn't until he took over Medivh and the power of the Guaridan that he actually had the means to get another invasion going and even that was only enough to get to outland not any actual demon filled space.

The orcs invasion was not the burning legion invading though, it was just left overs thrown into the meatgrinder, nor did it actually fuck up the world, Kel'thuzad alone with medivhs book was enough to bring the whole legion invasion to the world, sargeras could have easily acquired such assets on every corner of Azeroth the means , it was hardly a great feat.

The only reason he did not invade prior is because he didn't want to.