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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    You downplay the alliance victories and the Horde's losses. Stop looking through blue tinted glasses. The Horde suffered much more then the alliance since TBC.
    Win? Like what in OG siege? maybe, but we not destroy anything, from the thin air you got a whole Moria city under OG, so nothing destroyed, conquered, no prosecution. Win Arathi, the area outside even the dwarf territory, so hard to keep it. Darkshore is a wasteland don't even know why they not do it with ashenvale so really not getting anything here either. War in Ashenvale when cata happened, horde still there even today, horde got Azshara for free. Alliance lose Southshore (not really matter, but lose) Auberdine, quest like destroy a whole village with druid kids in it, later Theramore to complete the b*ner. Alliance get Gilneas and lost it a same time, Goblins lost an isle and get Azshara.
    Lose without true consequence for the Horde and win for the Alliance with bitterness in my mouth.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Of course. Also Alliance shifts ALL the blame on that character, even when local commanders and soldiers eagerly went to commit atrocities even without direct orders just because they got kicks from it. And then that character gets absolved of blame... because they were mind controlled (but not really). But then they just absolved no matter what.

    As for other Alliance commanders and etc they were no controlled in any way... But get the same treatment of forgiveness as if they were all under influence.
    The Big Bad Alliance Guy will then be Alleria, to follow the newest Windrunner tradition of betrayal and warcrimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    Win? Like what in OG siege? maybe, but we not destroy anything, from the thin air you got a whole Moria city under OG, so nothing destroyed, conquered, no prosecution. Win Arathi, the area outside even the dwarf territory, so hard to keep it. Darkshore is a wasteland don't even know why they not do it with ashenvale so really not getting anything here either. War in Ashenvale when cata happened, horde still there even today, horde got Azshara for free. Alliance lose Southshore (not really matter, but lose) Auberdine, quest like destroy a whole village with druid kids in it, later Theramore to complete the b*ner. Alliance get Gilneas and lost it a same time, Goblins lost an isle and get Azshara.
    Lose without true consequence for the Horde and win for the Alliance with bitterness in my mouth.
    Yeah, Cataclysm was never about being fair and never had to be. It was about showing Garrosh Horde gaining in strength despite difficulties and becoming a threat, while Varian's Alliance struggled but started to show some teeth. It was about showing development in the factions and the Horde started vanilla as outcasts living in wood huts or ruins, while the Alliance started as wounded nations crippled with corruption.

    Horde had a greater development margin, while the Alliance was mostly trying to move forward while dealing with crisis management.
    Last edited by DatToffer; 2022-06-23 at 05:17 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And when they remove cities and zones from Alliance they do not build up new ones so... You know, equal exchange.

    Except both Theramore and Darnassus are still used as quest hubs for their appropriate level. And both can be brought back with the bronze dragon zone change.

    Same with Undercity.

    You can still use them for all your rp desires.


    The same does not hold true for characters lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelthon
    do i wanting my cat come the expansion due to signifying a reroll fresh scratch the night elf mage?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    The Big Bad Alliance Guy will then be Alleria, to follow the newest Windrunner tradition of betrayal and warcrimes.
    And Void will tell her that it will male the Universe a better place if she sends Silvermoon into the Void by jumping into Sunwell and swimming lapses in it.

    Then Alliance mages will outmage Blood Elves and Nightborne (and i dont mean Jaina, some Bob the Conjurer and his buddy Freddy "Fireballs" willd do that) and dwarf mountaineers will defeat Thalassian Rangers and lay waste to Silvermoon defenses.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    Except both Theramore and Darnassus are still used as quest hubs for their appropriate level. And both can be brought back with the bronze dragon zone change.

    Same with Undercity.

    You can still use them for all your rp desires.


    The same does not hold true for characters lost.
    And you can still take quests from Garrosh and Sylvanas if you play Pandaria content and Legion/BfA content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    The Big Bad Alliance Guy will then be Alleria, to follow the newest Windrunner tradition of betrayal and warcrimes.



    Yeah, Cataclysm was never about being fair and never had to be. It was about showing Garrosh Horde gaining in strength despite difficulties and becoming a threat, while Varian's Alliance struggled but started to show some teeth. It was about showing development in the factions and the Horde started vanilla as outcasts living in wood huts or ruins, while the Alliance started as wounded nations crippled with corruption.

    Horde had a greater development margin, while the Alliance was mostly trying to move forward while dealing with crisis management.
    Where are the teeth then? Dont see any. Even gums are all weathered down.

    Also there WAS quest disaprity in amount of leveling XP but "fixing" it as Blizz did by humiliating one faction to the level of a gutter was not a solution.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by wushootaki View Post
    Notable Horde-themed franchise characters that the playable Horde has lost since WoW started

    - Kargath Bladefist (literally has a settlement named after him)
    - Cairne Bloodhoof (Magni came back, albeit neutral)
    - Zul'jin (Revantusk talked nonstop about him returning during vanilla, got villain batted because we got elves)
    - Vol'jin
    - Cho'gall
    - Garrosh Hellscream
    Cho'gal and Kargath not horde characters when wow started, old horde maybe but not a new horde.
    Magni not alive now, he is a moving Alexa from amazon prime
    Zul'jin i don't know what u wanna from him, you got b elfs for that now the horde 80% Britney elfs, bring money and attention to the horde.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And Void will tell her that it will male the Universe a better place if she sends Silvermoon into the Void by jumping into Sunwell and swimming lapses in it.

    Then Alliance mages will outmage Blood Elves and Nightborne (and i dont mean Jaina, some Bob the Conjurer and his buddy Freddy "Fireballs" willd do that) and dwarf mountaineers will defeat Thalassian Rangers and lay waste to Silvermoon defenses.
    (No idea what you're refering to here, though. Jaina is already the Alliance mage that outmages every other mage)

    But it's gonna need another quest where we kill hundreds of gnomes. And some world quest events where the void elves who were supposed to be a rare bunch suddenly show up as a fully geared army, with siege engines and invasive argussian fauna. And another one where the least technologically advanced Alliance civilization (Let's say the night elves) manages to wipe out an army of the most technologically advanced Horde civilization (let's say the mag'har or goblins) by summoning the power of three ghosts.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    “Place can be taken back” and yet Alliance only took back Darkshore and Arathi, but one is a posioned wasteland according to lore and nothing can live there, and another remains as “relevant” as paint drying on a wall.
    They also took back their holdings in Ashenvale through the BfA mission table, and if I'm remembering the quest dialogue correctly, it sounds like Calia is going to hand Gilneas back to Greymane.

    The Alliance is actually making out pretty good in the off-screen department.
    confirmed by my uncle nitnendo and masahiro samurai

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    In BfA beta they were also planning to flood Boralus.
    What's this now? I tried googling and didn't really find anything

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    (No idea what you're refering to here, though. Jaina is already the Alliance mage that outmages every other mage)

    But it's gonna need another quest where we kill hundreds of gnomes. And some world quest events where the void elves who were supposed to be a rare bunch suddenly show up as a fully geared army, with siege engines and invasive argussian fauna. And another one where the least technologically advanced Alliance civilization (Let's say the night elves) manages to wipe out an army of the most technologically advanced Horde civilization (let's say the mag'har or goblins) by summoning the power of three ghosts.
    Hey, that would have to be worgen not night elves, since we need something more "niche". I mean voodoo is not nearly as known/widespread as druidism. We need some real garbage can level sorceries.

    As for mages outmaging blood elves? And i specifically mentioned NOT Jaina. It was about Horde forces outmaneuvering night elves in their own woods and beating them in their own game with races that are not usually good at it. Like goblin hunter beating night elf sentinels and etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwgmon View Post
    They also took back their holdings in Ashenvale through the BfA mission table, and if I'm remembering the quest dialogue correctly, it sounds like Calia is going to hand Gilneas back to Greymane.

    The Alliance is actually making out pretty good in the off-screen department.
    1) Off screen.

    2) According to Exploring Kalimdor they took back jack shit, and Horde still actively invades Ashenvale even after Sylvanas was gone.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    Magni not alive now, he is a moving Alexa from amazon prime
    Now that's bad faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    Zul'jin i don't know what u wanna from him, you got b elfs for that now the horde 80% Britney elfs, bring money and attention to the horde.
    I think that's the funniest thing about the Alliance whining. Acting like things we never asked or wanted were good. Like Horde players never wanted Garrosh and Sylvanas to turn into genocidal maniacs. And we'd all be happier if we could play forest trolls instead of Blood elves. But marketing department said "You need Ken and Barbie to make numbers !"

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Where are the teeth then? Dont see any. Even gums are all weathered down.
    Well. In Cataclysm the Alliance pushed from Theramore all the way to the Barrens and it really leaves a stain to the place, you know. The blue and white in savanna ? The grey of that dwarf bunker (dwarves who wiped out a tauren tribe to get there too) ? So ugly and out of place, really need to get rid of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Hey, that would have to be worgen not night elves, since we need something more "niche". I mean voodoo is not nearly as known/widespread as druidism. We need some real garbage can level sorceries.

    As for mages outmaging blood elves? And i specifically mentioned NOT Jaina. It was about Horde forces outmaneuvering night elves in their own woods and beating them in their own game with races that are not usually good at it. Like goblin hunter beating night elf sentinels and etc.
    I'd suggest KT druidism then, because sadly worgen druidism really has zero personality compared to voodoo. At least drust druidism has some totems and effigies.

    The Horde has been outmaneuvering night elves in their own woods since Cataclysm. Because they are not afraid to burn shits down (And apparently because night elves are useless tacticians who can't win a Warsong Gulch without Varian).

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Now that's bad faith.



    I think that's the funniest thing about the Alliance whining. Acting like things we never asked or wanted were good. Like Horde players never wanted Garrosh and Sylvanas to turn into genocidal maniacs. And we'd all be happier if we could play forest trolls instead of Blood elves. But marketing department said "You need Ken and Barbie to make numbers !"



    Well. In Cataclysm the Alliance pushed from Theramore all the way to the Barrens and it really leaves a stain to the place, you know. The blue and white in savanna ? The grey of that dwarf bunker (dwarves who wiped out a tauren tribe to get there too) ? So ugly and out of place, really need to get rid of it.



    I'd suggest KT druidism then, because sadly worgen druidism really has zero personality compared to voodoo. At least drust druidism has some totems and effigies.

    The Horde has been outmaneuvering night elves in their own woods since Cataclysm. Because they are not afraid to burn shits down (And apparently because night elves are useless tacticians who can't win a Warsong Gulch without Varian).
    Almost like Horde has a "hand of god" helping them. Whatever that mighty entity may be. Also they were winning without much of "burning down forests" tactics, really. They just... won. Because game needs MORE drama and only race Blizz use for drama are night elves, same as they only use goblins for comedy.

    Also Alliance buildings look great anywhere, savannah, icy wastes, green meadows... Silvermoon outskirts can use some. Silvermoon itself will look great in the Void though.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Almost like Horde has a "hand of god" helping them. Whatever that mighty entity may be. Also they were winning without much of "burning down forests" tactics, really. They just... won. Because game needs MORE drama and only race Blizz use for drama are night elves, same as they only use goblins for comedy.
    Yeah, that's kind of the sad point of the night elves. They only exist for tragedy purpose and to show civilization decline. But hey, at least no one will ever miss their peak civilization because it literally broke the world !

    Oh wait. Their peak civilization is now a Horde race. Damn we have it good.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also Alliance buildings look great anywhere, savannah, icy wastes, green meadows... Silvermoon outskirts can use some. Silvermoon itself will look great in the Void though.
    Sure. If you're into Megabloks

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah, that's kind of the sad point of the night elves. They only exist for tragedy purpose and to show civilization decline. But hey, at least no one will ever miss their peak civilization because it literally broke the world !

    Oh wait. Their peak civilization is now a Horde race. Damn we have it good.



    Sure. If you're into Megabloks
    Horde buildings are pincushions, Alliance are blocks. I actually like Alliance aesthetics or less spiky WoD Garrison horde buildings.

    Also have you ever heard that using a race as a stereotype or one trick pony, assigning single role to a whole nation is a sign of being limp dicked impotent of a writer?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    Might be a bit premature to make this statement, now.
    I still don’t expect it to come back, as a hospitable city anyway. We’re more likely to see a grand re-opening of Lordaeron and Gilneas, maybe even Silvermoon in the near future.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperKarateDeathCar View Post
    What's this now? I tried googling and didn't really find anything
    Old Wowhead articles and YT videos. It’s lost to time. BFA had so much rewriting it felt like they weren’t sure what direction they were headed, particularly the War of Thorns and Sylvanas’ motivations. Boralus and Azshara attacking it was going to be another.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Horde buildings are pincushions, Alliance are blocks. I actually like Alliance aesthetics or less spiky WoD Garrison horde buildings.
    That's how you know you're with the edgy kids, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also have you ever heard that using a race as a stereotype or one trick pony, assigning single role to a whole nation is a sign of being limp dicked impotent of a writer?
    No wonder toxic masculinity has been a thing in the TT and video game RPG industries for so long. So many flaccid penises to compensate for.

    I was talking about it on Reddit recently. But aside from human kingdoms, troll tribes, dwarf clans and orc clans, it's mostly a one race, one nation and one archetype kinda thing.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    That's how you know you're with the edgy kids, yeah.



    No wonder toxic masculinity has been a thing in the TT and video game RPG industries for so long. So many flaccid penises to compensate for.

    I was talking about it on Reddit recently. But aside from human kingdoms, troll tribes, dwarf clans and orc clans, it's mostly a one race, one nation and one archetype kinda thing.
    Nobody said that RPG market had best writing, but WoW is a beacon of uninspired writing, bad tropes and making fans feel dread when they hear that their races will receive "new stories".

    Dont forget the "undead night elves are important for night elf culture" and then shoving those undead to the Horde even after the war is over and they have zero reason to stay with the Horde since Sylvanas bailed.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah, Cataclysm was never about being fair and never had to be. It was about showing Garrosh Horde gaining in strength despite difficulties and becoming a threat, while Varian's Alliance struggled but started to show some teeth. It was about showing development in the factions and the Horde started vanilla as outcasts living in wood huts or ruins, while the Alliance started as wounded nations crippled with corruption.

    Horde had a greater development margin, while the Alliance was mostly trying to move forward while dealing with crisis management.
    If i don't wanna a some kind of fair play then i go outside to the real world, but u see what happens to the lack of fair play, we don't have alliance members, the big guilds left many casual follow them.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Nobody said that RPG market had best writing, but WoW is a beacon of uninspired writing, bad tropes and making fans feel dread when they hear that their races will receive "new stories".
    All of that is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Dont forget the "undead night elves are important for night elf culture" and then shoving those undead to the Horde even after the war is over and they have zero reason to stay with the Horde since Sylvanas bailed.
    Tbf, it's on the Alliance side that they are now playable. Even the VE got the DR custom, so you can play an original DR in the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    If i don't wanna a some kind of fair play then i go outside to the real world, but u see what happens to the lack of fair play, we don't have alliance members, the big guilds left many casual follow them.
    I really doubt that is because of the story treatment.

    And no, we were never entitled to the outcome of a story being fair. Entitled to equal amount of development ? Sure, although I don't think we have it. Entitled to a compelling story ? Well I guess we do have it, because so many people act like they lost a loved one when a bunch of fictional characters die, they must really have engaged with the story !

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    All of that is true.



    Tbf, it's on the Alliance side that they are now playable. Even the VE got the DR custom, so you can play an original DR in the Alliance.



    I really doubt that is because of the story treatment.

    And no, we were never entitled to the outcome of a story being fair. Entitled to equal amount of development ? Sure, although I don't think we have it. Entitled to a compelling story ? Well I guess we do have it, because so many people act like they lost a loved one when a bunch of fictional characters die, they must really have engaged with the story !
    We get the undead elves with zero lore for them. While those about whom he spoke as being "important to the race" are now race traitors in the Horde. Imagine if someone said that Void Elves are "important to the blood elf story" just before carting them off to Alliance.

    UPD; You were sarcastic when you basically quoted the "if fans are angry it means they are engaged" bullshit Blizz peddled?
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2022-06-23 at 06:39 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post

    I really doubt that is because of the story treatment.

    And no, we were never entitled to the outcome of a story being fair. Entitled to equal amount of development ? Sure, although I don't think we have it. Entitled to a compelling story ? Well I guess we do have it, because so many people act like they lost a loved one when a bunch of fictional characters die, they must really have engaged with the story !
    No, not just because the story, the whole treatment for the alliance.
    I don't wanna a v fair play thing, but we far from fair play.

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